ISI ordered journalist's murder - More US Propaganda?

[notsuperstitious]

Btw do you understand the meaning of denial? Denial is when someone believes something that has overwhelming contradictory evidence.

Bharatis throw around this word and plenty of others without really knowing what it means. Where is the overwhelming contradictory evidence?

I've spent hours on this forum only this year convincing Pakistanis that Ajmal Kasab is indeed a Pakistani, so yes, I know the meaning of denial.

Regarding the accusations against CIA or any other agency - what happened in any other country should be of no importance to you. The question - particularly after OBL raid, jinnahpur conspiracy, shahzad murder with circumstancial suspicion and his own accusations etc and many others is that there's a solid chance that your protectors may be actually exploiting you for their own agendas. If thats not worth an inquiry for a civilian (assuming you are from a civilian family), then we must agree to disagree.

Its not a question of over simplification, I would get really worried if these things happened in India too.

 

[SMC]

But how does denial come in play here? Kasab is entirely irrelevant here. What is the denial in this case?

Now as for CIA and why I talked about it. Do you accuse CIA of wrongdoings despite incidents such as Iraq WMDs, Operation Northwoods, claims of use of illegal substances in war, supporting terrorism in Iran, etc? OBL raid, jinnahpur etc are nothing in front of these. And CIA hasn't been investigated in those. That's after the fact that we know Iraq WMD claims were false, that Operation Northwoods was a reality, but that the claims against ISI haven't been proven. In fact you still support the CIA, despite the things I just listed being only a small sample of CIA's portfolio.

The problem is that you decieve yourself. You yourself here are making accusations without evidence, but when it comes to CIA, you support them, despite knowing many of the accusations are true against them, and at other times, put others down for making accusations without evidence.

 

[Solomon2]

If I recall correctly the Supreme Court has a poor record in such inquiries, with Army generals simply refusing to answer questions in detail, claiming the Court lacks jurisdiction.

elaborate please.

In 1997, {General} Beg's response to the Pakistan Supreme Court, where a petition had been brought about the matter {the ISI allegedly swindling funds from a bank to fund anti-Bhutto candidates}, showed the army's attitude toward its behind-the-scenes role in Pakistani politics after the death of General Zia ul-Haq. Beg told the court that he "Was not answerable to [the court] regarding his actions as the chief of army staff" and that the sitting army chief was "the only competent and proper person" to ask him what he did and why...The refusal of Beg's successor army chiefs to question his operation of the slush fund confirms that his decision reflected the collective choice of Pakistan's military not to allow politics to take its course.

- Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military, Hussain Haqqani, 2005, p.218-219.

Hussain Haqqani is currently Pakistan's ambassador to the United States.

 

[Ben]

US has lost the war and trillions of dollars of taxpayers' money along-with it. No wonder, the losing army now wants to wage a war against Pakistan. Everything including the draw-down and the smear campaign against Pakistan's security establishment is taking place in accordance with a well-authored script and every actor, Pakistan's corporate media and corrupt politicians, is performing its assigned role very faithfully. AfPak war theater now being shifted to Pakistan is no more a secret. In order to disintegrate Pakistan for larger scheme of things, weakening of armed forces is the first step which has now become apparent. The unholy alliance of politicians, media and militants against Pakistan should be exposed forcefully. No wonder, Taliban and the West (including India) have effective media manipulation strategy than the army. Why is this being done to a nation which offered maximum human and material sacrifices in WOT?

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Yet again a simplistic diversion. What treasure trove did Vietnam have? What treasure trove did Iraq have? Don't tell me oil because you say that's a conspiracy theory. What treasure trove does Venezeula have? What treasure trove does Libya have? What treasure trove does North Korea has? What treasure trove does Zimbabwe have? What treasure trove does Belarus have? What treasure trove does Syria have? Look, I can go on and on.

You instinctively converted the world community into USA and also generalized the specifics I was trying to point by involving all kinds of cases. And US invasion of Iraq for oil is not a conspiracy theory to me. But oil, while may have been the core reason, was definitely not the facilitator of Iraq war, it was the fascist rein of Saddam Hussein. He gave enough reasons to the international community to throw him off and Pakistan is kind of heading towards the same direction. When the international community would feel that a nuclear powered nation is falling to rogue/extremists, they will surely come in.

But this should be enough to get your head out of the sand -- that's if you're willing to. There are many reasons why US is targetting Pakistan. It will act as a route for China in the future, US wants Pakistan to go into North Waziristan, US may want Pakistan to disarm its nukes because it threatens Israel, etc.

It has nothing to do with me in a direct way. It is your country and your institutions and if you would rather choose to blind yourself from extremists taking hold of your country, good luck with that. I expressed my views just to tilt the balance towards potential truth.

And US wants to disarm Pakistan of nuclear arms because it threatens Israel is a laughable opinion. Pakistan is no threat to Israel.

But more importantly, what we have to look for is proof for these claims, not whether they have any reason to go after Pakistan.

Like video recordings and ISI testimony? My best wishes to you.

 

[SMC]

You instinctively converted the world community into USA and also generalized the specifics I was trying to point by involving all kinds of cases.

Yes, that was on purpose, because you bharatis over and over claim that the 'whole world' thinks this way or that way about Pakistan. The claim that the whole world thinks about Pakistan in the way you claim is not true. A few western countries and Bharat do not add up to the whole world.

And US invasion of Iraq for oil is not a conspiracy theory to me. But oil, while may have been the core reason, was definitely not the facilitator of Iraq war, it was the fascist rein of Saddam Hussein. He gave enough reasons to the international community to throw him off and Pakistan is kind of heading towards the same direction. When the international community would feel that a nuclear powered nation is falling to rogue/extremists, they will surely come in.

Fascism rein or such was not the official reason to start the war. When you start a war, you have to give a reason. The reason here was WMDs.

Transit route for China is in fact a bigger reason one could start a war than Iraqi oil. Combine that with the fact that both Balochistan is extremely rich in natural resources.

Nevertheless, I gave a list of about 10 or so countries. The fact that you only discussed one says it all really. What about Venezeula? What treasures does it have? Zimbabwe? Cuba? And the rest of the countries in the list.

You seem to have the overly overly simplistic notion that if a country does not have some resource then anyone making accusations against it must be making accusations that are true.

I am basically trying to pin down two points here.

1. A country does not need have a "treasure trove" for other countries to want to spread propaganda against.
2. But nevertheless, if you consider Iraqi oil a "treasure trove" then Balochistan's resources combined with Pakistan being a transit route for China is a much bigger treasure trove.

It has nothing to do with me in a direct way. It is your country and your institutions and if you would rather choose to blind yourself from extremists taking hold of your country, good luck with that. I expressed my views just to tilt the balance towards potential truth.

Of course it has nothing to do with you in a direct way, except that you spread your propaganda based on oversimplistic ideas, that we must accept the accusations based on no proof but rather the (false) claim that US has nothing to gain by spreading propaganda against Pakistan.

I am afraid you're the one blinding yourself and expressed your views to tilt the balance toward propaganda.

And US wants to disarm Pakistan of nuclear arms because it threatens Israel is a laughable opinion. Pakistan is no threat to Israel.

Ask Israelis themselves privately.

Also, as I said, what about pressuring Pakistan to go into Waziristan? Pakistan - in particular Balochistan - acting as a transit route for China? Those are bigger reasons than Iraqi oil. So there you go. Even though your thoughts were overly simplistic, they were still false.

Like video recordings and ISI testimony? My best wishes to you.

Video recordings is not the only way of getting physical evidence. Arrest an ISI official during his act and get him to admit it.

But this is what I find interesting is the utter, utter hypocrisy from some bharatis. They expect us to provide them proof, but what do we have here? Oh no, proof is hard to get, you must accept our accusation based on conspiracy theories and rhetoric.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Many journalists who are still alive have published personal testimonies. Thats proof.

No it is not, and feel free to correct my argument below if I my information about these 'testimonies' is incorrect.

The testimonies by these journalists are their personal accounts of being kidnapped/tortured - they are not actual evidence of the ISI/PA, or anyone else for that matter, being the culprits.

Proper credible evidence would involve ISI/PA personnel, who had been given these instructions, coming forwarda and confessing to their role. Or it would involve the arrest of the alleged kidnappers and the information they reveal, which would then have to be cross-checked, or it could involve wire-taps or other electronic/documentiary evidence that leads to the ISI/PA.

Mere speculation by these journalists about who they believe kidnapped them is not, in any fair process, considered actual evidence.

I don't understand what proof you want, not sure an abducted reporter will be in a position to make a video to quench someone's never ending thirst for proof.

Just because an abductee cannot 'make a video' does not mean that people then just start vilifying the entity that the abductee decides to blame. The responsibility lies on law enforcement and the judicial system to investigate the crime, arrest the perpetrators, and find out any information about those who may or may not have ordered the abductions and torture.

Yes, the Pakistani law enforcement system is very weak, but that is not justification for vilifying the ISI/PA on the basis of mere speculation.

If you support the rule of law, then you should call these articles and stories against the ISI/PA what they are - unsubstantiated speculation and smear campaigns by the US Establishment to malign and pressure Pakistan. The recent unsubstantiated AQ Khan letter dragged out of nowhere is yet another example of this deliberate smear campaign by the US Establishment.

 

[alibaz]

Many journalists who are still alive have published personal testimonies. Thats proof.

I don't understand what proof you want, not sure an abducted reporter will be in a position to make a video to quench someone's never ending thirst for proof.

These testimonies are not proofs they may be biased by whatever has happened to him and that may not be because of agencies. Many journalists have been killed in recent past but why US is only worried about this gentleman. Was he on pay roll of some agency.... ???

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Yes, that was on purpose, because you bharatis over and over claim that the 'whole world' thinks this way or that way about Pakistan. The claim that the whole world thinks about Pakistan in the way you claim is not true. A few western countries and Bharat do not add up to the whole world.

By "whole world" we mean the international community whose voice counts. Rest are mostly self-confined, powerless or botherless.

Fascism rein or such was not the official reason to start the war. When you start a war, you have to give a reason. The reason here was WMDs.

I was talking about the excuse to initiate the war. WMDs was another one.

Transit route for China is in fact a bigger reason one could start a war than Iraqi oil. Combine that with the fact that both Balochistan is extremely rich in natural resources.

It seems you are arguing just for the heck of it or you are least aware of what you are saying. You think USA directly controls the oil reserves of Iraq? It enabled major stake into the oil industry of Iraq by corporate contracts to its company, thereby securing itself oil/oil-generated revenue.

That is entirely different from controlling a piece of land of a sovereign nation.

Nevertheless, I gave a list of about 10 or so countries. The fact that you only discussed one says it all really. What about Venezeula? What treasures does it have? Zimbabwe? Cuba? And the rest of the countries in the list.

As I said these are very different cases. Each of which would require a separate thread.

You seem to have the overly overly simplistic notion that if a country does not have some resource then anyone making accusations against it must be making accusations that are true.

No I don't. When trying to see the legitimacy of a situation, there are always several supporting points. This is one of them.

I am basically trying to pin down two points here.

1. A country does not need have a "treasure trove" for other countries to want to spread propaganda against.
2. But nevertheless, if you consider Iraqi oil a "treasure trove" then Balochistan's resources combined with Pakistan being a transit route for China is a much bigger treasure trove.

Now that is an over simplistic notion. While you think that others are talking naive, you do not realize that the circle you are looking at, thinking it is smaller than your own, is actually one of the many overlapping and encircling.

Of course it has nothing to do with you in a direct way, except that you spread your propaganda based on oversimplistic ideas, that we must accept the accusations based on no proof but rather the (false) claim that US has nothing to gain by spreading propaganda against Pakistan.

I am afraid you're the one blinding yourself and expressed your views to tilt the balance toward propaganda.

So surely if your house gets robbed while you were sleeping and no gets nabbed, it must be a propaganda. Try to think with some rationale. I never said these are enough to nail the ISI in court, but if such serious allegations are leveled against a nation's intelligence and military, people should not take it lightly and brush them under the carpet just because it suits their liking.

Ask Israelis themselves privately.

Also, as I said, what about pressuring Pakistan to go into Waziristan? Pakistan - in particular Balochistan - acting as a transit route for China? Those are bigger reasons than Iraqi oil. So there you go. Even though your thoughts were overly simplistic, they were still false.

I would have bought your argument of this being a pressure tactic by the US, had it not been the case that the charges have originated from within Pakistan, by its own journalists, some prominent and famous.

Video recordings is not the only way of getting physical evidence. Arrest an ISI official during his act and get him to admit it.

Probably a good suggestion, but you are directing it to the wrong person. Voice this to your government, in fact ensure that the journalists get a fair trial.

But this is what I find interesting is the utter, utter hypocrisy from some bharatis. They expect us to provide them proof, but what do we have here? Oh no, proof is hard to get, you must accept our accusation based on conspiracy theories and rhetoric.

What? I suppose there is a lack of synchronization here. But from whatever I can gather, your generalizations are amusing.

 

[khurasaan1]

These testimonies are not proofs they may be biased by whatever has happened to him and that may not be because of agencies. Many journalists have been killed in recent past but why US is only worried about this gentleman. Was he on pay roll of some agency.... ???

Yes! he was on CIAz payroll, no doubt about it.......umm........

 

[VCheng]

.......

Just because an abductee cannot 'make a video' does not mean that people then just start vilifying the entity that the abductee decides to blame. The responsibility lies on law enforcement and the judicial system to investigate the crime, arrest the perpetrators, and find out any information about those who may or may not have ordered the abductions and torture.

LOL!

Have you forgotten what led to the CJ's sacking by Musharraf? The "deal" struck to get him back meant that even the Supreme Court cannot investigate the hundreds of persons "disappeared" by the ISI.

The whole circus needs to come down, tent and all.

 

[S.M.R]

LOL!

Have you forgotten what led to the CJ's sacking by Musharraf? The "deal" struck to get him back meant that even the Supreme Court cannot investigate the hundreds of persons "disappeared" by the ISI.

The whole circus needs to come down, tent and all.

That was result of secret deal that Nawaz sharif will be allowed to come back, that surfaced.

Now musharraf is gone, our beloved CJ is back. Who is barring them investigate the case of missing person or it is part of deal of CJ restoration that he will not take up the case actively?

 

[VCheng]

That was result of secret deal that Nawaz sharif will be allowed to come back, that surfaced.

Now musharraf is gone, our beloved CJ is back. Who is barring them investigate the case of missing person or it is part of deal of CJ restoration that he will not take up the case actively?

Part of the deal. Sad, that is all.

 

[VCheng]

from: Pakistan govt may have sanctioned Shahzad’s death: US | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

WASHINGTON: The US military’s top officer said Thursday Pakistan’s government may have sanctioned the killing of a Pakistani journalist, voicing grave concern over the attack.

Asked about media reports that Islamabad sanctioned or approved the killing of the reporter, Admiral Mike Mullen said: “I haven’t seen anything that would disabuse that report.”

He said he was “concerned” about the incident and suggested other reporters had suffered a similar fate in the past.

“His (death) isn’t the first. For whatever reason, it has been used as a method historically.”While acknowledging that Pakistani officials have denied the government had any role in the death of Saleem Shahzad, Mullen said the episode raised worrying questions about the country’s current course.

“It’s not a way to move ahead. It’s a way to continue to quite frankly spiral in the wrong direction,” said Mullen, who has held numerous meetings with Pakistani counterparts during his tenure as chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff.

The New York Times, citing US officials, reported Monday that the powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency ordered the killing of the 40-year-old Shahzad to muzzle criticism. Mullen said he could not confirm whether the ISI was behind the killing.

The ISI has denied as “baseless” allegations that it was involved in the murder of Shahzad, who worked for an Italian news agency and a Hong Kong-registered news site.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Part of the deal. Sad, that is all.

What deal ties the hands of the current judiciary, beyond speculation and conspiracy theories?

Did the same judiciary not end up getting 'dismissed' from service by Musharraf after refusing to cave into his demands?

To argue that somehow now they are 'pliant' towards the military for the sake of their jobs makes no sense given their actions in complete disregard for their 'job security' under a military dictatorship.