Is the problem at the heart of Islam, the silence of sensible Muslims?

[angeldust]

Islam has been interested in political power since the very beginning.

One needs to do an objective analysis on the basis of the Quran and the conduct of the Prophet, as depicted in the Sahih Hadith.

I see what you are saying.

Perhaps a better way to say the same is:

------------ Politicians have been interested in fing and abusing Islam to gain power, from the time of Mohammad pbuh.

Long before he was looked upon as a divine Prophet, Mohammad was an extremely astute politician, well versed in the power dynamics of the Arab world.

So it would not be incorrect to say that Islam has always been more politicial first than theological or spiritual after.

The very basis of the concept of the Ummah or the Caliphate or the Sultanate is political, an ideal many muslims even today believe in.

Not very different from the Christian kingdoms and the Church, till the umblical cord was terminally severed leading to the renaissance and the growth of science and industry.

Islam has a well chalked out path which it can follow, and fast forward its own rennaisance by many centuries.

Or it can continue on the slower and more painful path sibling faiths have trod upon before it.

 

[ajtr]

Long before he was looked upon as a divine Prophet, Mohammad was an extremely astute politician, well versed in the power dynamics of the Arab world.

So it would not be incorrect to say that Islam has always been more politicial first than theological or spiritual after.

The very basis of the concept of the Ummah or the Caliphate or the Sultanate is political, an ideal many muslims even today believe in.

Not very different from the Christian kingdoms and the Church, till the umblical cord was terminally severed leading to the renaissance and the growth of science and industry.

Islam has a well chalked out path which it can follow, and fast forward its own rennaisance by many centuries.

Or it can continue on the slower and more painful path sibling faiths have trod upon before it.

Wasn't Ram got trained in raj-dharma in gurukul.

 

[angeldust]

Wasn't Ram and other khstriyas in hinduism were taught the raj-dharma in gurukul.

Sure they were. They were kings. Ruling was one of their KRAs.

 

[KS]

Not very different from the Christian kingdoms and the Church, till the umblical cord was terminally severed leading to the renaissance and the growth of science and industry.

Unlike Islam, Jesus did not embark on a political empire building exercise. The use of a religion to gain political power was accurate in the case of Christianity when Constantine saw the immense potential of that and utilized the religion which was already there. But in case of Islam, one could argue that the religion itself was found to gain political power. In other words its nothign but a Arab imperialist methodology.

No reason to jump on me. Just putting forth my view. In case it is unpalatable to some, please tell, I'll delete it.

 

[ajtr]

Sure they were. They were kings. Ruling was one of their KRAs.

So same is true for any religion. Rajdhrama is part of any religion.

 

[KS]

So same is true for any religion. Rajdhrama is part of any religion.

Not sure how you made that equal-equal. Unlike Mohammed, Ram did not claim in his lifetime that he was a Prophet or God. Also Ram inherited a kingdom from his father. While in case of Mohammed, one could say he utilized Islam to build a new one. Not sure how they are the same.

 

[somebozo]

Most of the muslim countries today are in rotten state..and in need of major reforms. Separating the state from religion is a much needed step..Islam is a social and religious order not a political one. Political Islam has always been a source of nuisance and disorder. In the last three decades, the new found oil wealth of gulf states has given self appointed mullahs an unlimited excuse of preaching hardcore reversion to jahillyah..if God is with the backwards then none of the Muslim country is progressing the way they should despite all the mineral wealth under their feet.

Political islam and pan-islamism have turned people again people. The sane and guided among them look to escape towards the west and wish to have nothing to do with the constantly rotting Muslim society. They have enough fears and insecurities of their own to take care of. People have to realize that their future lies with their country men with in the geographical boundires of their respective countries.

Throughout history, Muslim empires have depended on constant warfare, expansion and annexation in the name of spreading islam to sustain and build their empires to establish their own dynasties nothing else.

 

[angeldust]

Unlike Islam, Jesus did not embark on a political empire building exercise. The use of a religion to gain political power was accurate in the case of Christianity when Constantine saw the immense potential of that and utilized the religion which was already there. But in case of Islam, one could argue that the religion itself was found to gain political power. In other words its nothign but a Arab imperialist methodology.

No reason to jump on me. Just putting forth my view. In case it is unpalatable to some, please tell, I'll delete it.

So same is true for any religion. Rajdhrama is part of any religion.

My take on it is that all expansionist religions piss people off if one way or the other. Christianity had its fair share of that. So did Islam.

Islam's cross to bear is that it came last. So when it pissed off other faiths afresh, old enemities amongst other faiths were buried and put aside in order to tackle the new threat.

Maybe if Islam had not come along, Christianity would never had reformed, and would probably still be Enemy No. 1.

That and the fact that Christianity kept expanding but now as national entities. So it was difficult to pin the enemity en masse on to a faith, but the bad blood got divied up and diluted amongst many member states.

Islam never de-centralized. Hence all the bad blood remained concentrated, uni-polar, focused, and central to the entire faith as a single entity.

Feel free to disagree. Just my 2 paise.

 

[sreekimpact]

Wasn't Ram got trained in raj-dharma in gurukul.

Ram didn't create any religion of his own ..........

 

[ajtr]

Not sure how you made that equal-equal. Unlike Mohammed, Ram did not claim in his lifetime that he was a Prophet or God. Also Ram inherited a kingdom from his father. While in case of Mohammed, one could say he utilized Islam to build a new one. Not sure how they are the same.

does Ram has to claim anything when in the beginning itself its told that Vishnu will be reincarnated as Ram in house of Dashratha.As for building an emipre didnt Ram performed the Ashwamegh yagna to expand his empire.

 

[Spring Onion]

Not sure how you made that equal-equal. Unlike Mohammed, Ram did not claim in his lifetime that he was a Prophet or God. Also Ram inherited a kingdom from his father. While in case of Mohammed, one could say he utilized Islam to build a new one. Not sure how they are the same.

Big difference between Hindu mythology and Islamic concept of religion. In your case its Kingdom like a property which can be transffered to a son but Prophethood is not like that.

Our Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did NOT use Islam to create a kingdom neither he owned any wordly thing nor he transffered it.

 

[KS]

Big difference between Hindu mythology and Islamic concept of religion. In your case its Kingdom like a property which can be transffered to a son but Prophethood is not like that.

Not sure how what you said is relevant to what I said. Understand the point Im trying to make in contxt of ajtr;s post.

Our Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did NOT use Islam to create a kingdom neither he owned any wordly thing nor he transffered it.

That was why He engaged in constant warfare with surrounding tribes rather than spending time praying and meditating as a Divine Prophet ought to.

 

[angeldust]

Big difference between Hindu mythology and Islamic concept of religion. In your case its Kingdom like a property which can be transffered to a son but Prophethood is not like that.

Our Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did NOT use Islam to create a kingdom neither he owned any wordly thing nor he transffered it.

But equally Andromache, of all the Prophets before him, he was the only one directly involved in the politics of his home states, and commander of his own armies.

None of the other Prophets did either.

Not Zarathushtra. Not Moses. Not Christ.

 

[KS]

does Ram has to claim anything when in the beginning itself its told that Vishnu will be reincarnated as Ram in house of Dashratha.As for building an emipre didnt Ram performed the Ashwamegh yagna to expand his empire.

We are told. He was not told, nor was he or Dasratha aware of that. Yes, he performed those yagnas as was required of the Kshatriyas those days. He considered himself a mere mortal, a king who was doing his Raj Dharma and not as a God/Avatar/Prophet..while in case of Mohammed, he claimed he was the divine Prophet. Get the difference ?

 

[Spring Onion]

Unlike Islam, Jesus did not embark on a political empire building exercise. The use of a religion to gain political power was accurate in the case of Christianity when Constantine saw the immense potential of that and utilized the religion which was already there. But in case of Islam, one could argue that the religion itself was found to gain political power. In other words its nothign but a Arab imperialist methodology.

No reason to jump on me. Just putting forth my view. In case it is unpalatable to some, please tell, I'll delete it.

You understanding of Islam is totally wrong

1. Islam was not something new we believe in all the Prophets and we believe concept of ONE and only God was always there and His prophets were sent time to time to implement this concpet. Its only Islam where it was selaed viz a viz Prophets.


2. Islam is NOT Arab methadology neither it has anything to do with Arabism rather its negation of Arabism aka idolworshiping.

3. Islam is NOT just religion thingy its about complete way of life including Social issues, personal issues, political system, defence system and all.
The only need of the hour is to purge it from the fake semi-illiterate mullas