Super Falcon
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Is The JF17 Thunder Stil Relevant Now
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Mr Growler is indeed irritated with the new developments. You can see him support Chinese Tech in the PakFa threads when he was the one who was advocating PAF needs Rafale since the Chinese Tech still needs time to mature.
I think Pakistan has already been and will now continue to increase their nuclear weapons and delivery system. Regardles of stealth or the total number of cool airplanes India may have and get, India will still think 4 times if the numbers in nuclear weapons is large.
However, the scene with the Chinese is completely different. The deterrent is so strong, this new development is a game changer wrt China.
As far is Pakistan is considered as long as Indians and Pakistani's have their head in place, nothing will come out of it.
As far as the JF17 is considered, PAF needed an aircraft to fill the numbers, it will do that wonderfully and we may see some increased activity in getting some western tech for this plane.
I think Pakistan has already been and will now continue to increase their nuclear weapons and delivery system. Regardles of stealth or the total number of cool airplanes India may have and get, India will still think 4 times if the numbers in nuclear weapons is large.
However, the scene with the Chinese is completely different. The deterrent is so strong, this new development is a game changer wrt China.
As far is Pakistan is considered as long as Indians and Pakistani's have their head in place, nothing will come out of it.
As far as the JF17 is considered, PAF needed an aircraft to fill the numbers, it will do that wonderfully and we may see some increased activity in getting some western tech for this plane.
Super Falcon
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Storm Force
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Super falcon THEY may not be a need for MMRCA
Thunder canont live with SU30MKI without a massive upgrade..
F16/52 versis TYPHOON/RAFAEL/SUPERHORNETS. only one winner
F16 is 20 years older in tech to all 6 MMRCA contenders. Thats why MMRCA verage cost is 2 to 3 times F16/52
AS FOR JXX thats like 10 years away from first flight EVEN then china will need RUSSIAN HELP
Thunder canont live with SU30MKI without a massive upgrade..
F16/52 versis TYPHOON/RAFAEL/SUPERHORNETS. only one winner
F16 is 20 years older in tech to all 6 MMRCA contenders. Thats why MMRCA verage cost is 2 to 3 times F16/52
AS FOR JXX thats like 10 years away from first flight EVEN then china will need RUSSIAN HELP
Imran Khan
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don't look at china until 2025 there tec is not great as we think.man because we use its not make it great.china has to learn much more.i think if china J-XX is on planet earth it will be lowest stalth on planet.simply because of no good tec.
Extremely intelligent analysis!!!
Hope the PAF takes your advice in case of war...
Dazzler
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The jf-17 will remain relevant for the role it was made to fulfill. Pakistan is effectively working with Chinese on the JXX project and closely monitoring the current scenario. The PAK FA still has a lot to cover and it is still in development stage. A very desparate date in its induction is 2017. So India may not be able to have a hand on it until 2019-20. Below is the reason why.
New Russian stealth fighter makes first flight:
Moscow, Friday, January 29, 2010: Russia test-flew a long-awaited new fighter aircraft on Friday, determined to challenge the United States for technical superiority in the skies and impress weapons buyers.
The "fifth-generation" stealth fighter -- Russia's first all-new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union plunged the defense industry into poverty and disarray -- flew for 47 minutes, planemaker Sukhoi said.
"It's a remarkable event," Prime Minister Vladimir Putin told his cabinet, but he suggested the plane still needed work.
"There is very much to be done, in part as regards the engine," Putin said. "But the fact that the plane is already in the air is a big step forward."
Russia's main television networks led news programs with reports of the flight and showed footage of the needle-nosed, camouflage-painted plane taking off from a snow-lined airstrip at a Sukhoi factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.
"The plane performed very well. All our expectations for this first flight were met," Sukhoi spokeswoman Olga Kayukova said on Rossiya 24 television. "The premiere was a success."
Foreign journalists were not invited.
Fifth-generation aircraft are invisible to radar, have advanced flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds. The new plane is Moscow's answer to the U.S.-built F-22 Raptor stealth fighter -- the world's only fifth-generation fighter yet in service -- which first flew in 1997.
Putin said the plane would first be delivered to the Defense Ministry in 2013 and serial production would start in 2015. Analysts have said it would probably be five to seven years before Russia's military gets to fly the new fighter.
Successful development of the fighter, which Rossiya 24 said has been tentatively dubbed the T-50, is crucial to showing Russia can challenge U.S. technology.
The 1991 Soviet collapse ushered in a cash-strapped time of troubles for Russia's military. Its aircraft makers have been building warplanes based on updated Soviet-era designs.
Embarrassing setbacks:
Defense spending increased in the oil-fueled period of economic growth during the 2000-2008 presidency of Putin, who has encouraged pride in Russia's military might.
The military has continued to suffer embarrassing and sometimes deadly setbacks since the nuclear submarine Kursk sank in 2000, killing all 118 seamen aboard.
Several failed tests of the submarine-launched Bulava (Mace) intercontinental ballistic missile, touted by Putin as able to pierce any air defense, have troubled the Kremlin.
The Interfax news agency quoted an unidentified source as saying the new Russian plane had lowered and raised its landing gear twice during the flight and added that "the American F-35 fifth-generation jet couldn't do that (on its test flight)."
Lieutenant Colonel Marcel de Haas, Russian security researcher at the Netherlands Institute of International Relations Clingendael, was not convinced of the plane's bright future.
"My impression is that this new fighter plane is also more propaganda than a real expectancy," he told Reuters by e-mail.
Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told the cabinet more work had to be done on the engine and the armaments system. Neither he nor Putin went into details.
The new plane is important for future Russian arms sales.
In a statement on the company website sukhoi.org, Sukhoi director Mikhail Pogosyan said the company planned to develop its fifth-generation fighter program further with India, its biggest client for existing planes.
Sukhoi is Russia's largest exporter of military planes and accounts for about a quarter of the country's annual arms sales, which reached $ 7.4 billion last year.
Besides India and China, existing clients for Russia's weapons include U.S. foes such as Iran, Syria and Venezuela, and their purchase of an advanced new fighter could cause concern in the United States and its allies.
New Russian stealth fighter makes first flight:
Moscow, Friday, January 29, 2010: Russia test-flew a long-awaited new fighter aircraft on Friday, determined to challenge the United States for technical superiority in the skies and impress weapons buyers.
The "fifth-generation" stealth fighter -- Russia's first all-new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union plunged the defense industry into poverty and disarray -- flew for 47 minutes, planemaker Sukhoi said.
"It's a remarkable event," Prime Minister Vladimir Putin told his cabinet, but he suggested the plane still needed work.
"There is very much to be done, in part as regards the engine," Putin said. "But the fact that the plane is already in the air is a big step forward."
Russia's main television networks led news programs with reports of the flight and showed footage of the needle-nosed, camouflage-painted plane taking off from a snow-lined airstrip at a Sukhoi factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.
"The plane performed very well. All our expectations for this first flight were met," Sukhoi spokeswoman Olga Kayukova said on Rossiya 24 television. "The premiere was a success."
Foreign journalists were not invited.
Fifth-generation aircraft are invisible to radar, have advanced flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds. The new plane is Moscow's answer to the U.S.-built F-22 Raptor stealth fighter -- the world's only fifth-generation fighter yet in service -- which first flew in 1997.
Putin said the plane would first be delivered to the Defense Ministry in 2013 and serial production would start in 2015. Analysts have said it would probably be five to seven years before Russia's military gets to fly the new fighter.
Successful development of the fighter, which Rossiya 24 said has been tentatively dubbed the T-50, is crucial to showing Russia can challenge U.S. technology.
The 1991 Soviet collapse ushered in a cash-strapped time of troubles for Russia's military. Its aircraft makers have been building warplanes based on updated Soviet-era designs.
Embarrassing setbacks:
Defense spending increased in the oil-fueled period of economic growth during the 2000-2008 presidency of Putin, who has encouraged pride in Russia's military might.
The military has continued to suffer embarrassing and sometimes deadly setbacks since the nuclear submarine Kursk sank in 2000, killing all 118 seamen aboard.
Several failed tests of the submarine-launched Bulava (Mace) intercontinental ballistic missile, touted by Putin as able to pierce any air defense, have troubled the Kremlin.
The Interfax news agency quoted an unidentified source as saying the new Russian plane had lowered and raised its landing gear twice during the flight and added that "the American F-35 fifth-generation jet couldn't do that (on its test flight)."
Lieutenant Colonel Marcel de Haas, Russian security researcher at the Netherlands Institute of International Relations Clingendael, was not convinced of the plane's bright future.
"My impression is that this new fighter plane is also more propaganda than a real expectancy," he told Reuters by e-mail.
Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told the cabinet more work had to be done on the engine and the armaments system. Neither he nor Putin went into details.
The new plane is important for future Russian arms sales.
In a statement on the company website sukhoi.org, Sukhoi director Mikhail Pogosyan said the company planned to develop its fifth-generation fighter program further with India, its biggest client for existing planes.
Sukhoi is Russia's largest exporter of military planes and accounts for about a quarter of the country's annual arms sales, which reached $ 7.4 billion last year.
Besides India and China, existing clients for Russia's weapons include U.S. foes such as Iran, Syria and Venezuela, and their purchase of an advanced new fighter could cause concern in the United States and its allies.
karan.1970
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Imran Bhai.. Ummeed pe duniya kayam hai.. Insahallah good sense will prevail on both sides...warna sab se pehle to hum jaise common man hi marte hain...
Imran Khan
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this damn time we should be partner of f-35 as indo russian go from1948 and pak usa .but today we are no were .we do whole dirty job of yankees and got out dated scrap after 1965 until today?. shamefully we make russia our enemy for usa and today whole big powers like usa russia france uk india are not our friendly.we need uturn in policy we have change our whole policy.fix the matters with india hang all terarrsts stay away from usa recognise israil go russia for better relations and make more close china .other wise future will be more painfull.
Storm Force
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MY QUESTION STIL is unanswered.
SHOULD PAF stil induct a mid tech THUNDER with no western radar or weapons and standard chinease radar to FACE OFF SU30MKI today and til 2017 AND then FACE off against fifth generation PAK FA.
Will PAF have anthing left in its pockets IF IT BLOWS $2.5 billion on a THUNDER programme.
OR should they go double even triple J10 ORDER now
36-40 is too small an order
SHOULD PAF stil induct a mid tech THUNDER with no western radar or weapons and standard chinease radar to FACE OFF SU30MKI today and til 2017 AND then FACE off against fifth generation PAK FA.
Will PAF have anthing left in its pockets IF IT BLOWS $2.5 billion on a THUNDER programme.
OR should they go double even triple J10 ORDER now
36-40 is too small an order
JF 17 is a good fighter no doubt about it but considering it to be as good as SU 30 mki, isn't it wrong?
JF 17 ll be good against(if it gets BVR capability and AESA) LCA but not MMRCA and su 30 MKI. block 52 is a good deal against it and even J 10 is but then the same question, AESA etc, a very few country has AESA you should look for it soon..
But guys it is a known fact that you must have one type of a world class fighter, Rafale is something you must get if India doesn't.. why? Do I even need to say a word about its quality. These are actually called as mature ACs, which can put into production and you don't have to wait for 1 2 3 kind of upgrades. 50 Rafale at least Pakistan should get. it also has operational AESA, super advanced avionics, Superb ground and air attack, and the most Important Pakistan can get it without US poking in BW, you have experience with Mirage.
Why not think it that way? Have Chinese jets, they are addition but not the world class, its same as I say LCA a world class when its not, its just a good conventional fighter.
JF 17 ll be good against(if it gets BVR capability and AESA) LCA but not MMRCA and su 30 MKI. block 52 is a good deal against it and even J 10 is but then the same question, AESA etc, a very few country has AESA you should look for it soon..
But guys it is a known fact that you must have one type of a world class fighter, Rafale is something you must get if India doesn't.. why? Do I even need to say a word about its quality. These are actually called as mature ACs, which can put into production and you don't have to wait for 1 2 3 kind of upgrades. 50 Rafale at least Pakistan should get. it also has operational AESA, super advanced avionics, Superb ground and air attack, and the most Important Pakistan can get it without US poking in BW, you have experience with Mirage.
Why not think it that way? Have Chinese jets, they are addition but not the world class, its same as I say LCA a world class when its not, its just a good conventional fighter.
Actually, you should try to develop more industries. Remove poverty. Before 90s, west didn't considered India like it is doing now. Its just money game. You have money, You get respects and toys like this.
Dazzler
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@Storm Force
your excitement is understandable but you do not have to worry about the PAF. We have survived the worst times and future will be no different. We are working to counter the situation in hand on all fronts. That's all i can say
your excitement is understandable but you do not have to worry about the PAF. We have survived the worst times and future will be no different. We are working to counter the situation in hand on all fronts. That's all i can say
Imran Khan
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PAF has no choise to go thunder man .its done.abut thunder don't just see it as a product but its start of pakistan aviation industry in future i hope we can make next genration from our own also.its not just a plane but its much more first time in history we are going to involve in design production and making a 4th gen jet.i am wondring if its sucsessful fighter fopr sale then we earn much much and can but 100 refales from that money.
What exactly do you think we should have done? See when MKI thing started, JF-17 specifications were upgraded. Now PAK-FA is coming, expect something to done on FC-20s.
Other than that what really do you think we can do? start producing our own 5th gen fighters? The only alternative is to wait for the Chinese one, if and when it becomes available for export AND if we have the capability of buying it.
Wait...what? you suddenly threw the JF-17 and the F-16 blk 52 back to 3.5 generation or you advanced the PAK-FA over and above the F-22?
The only realistic and practical thing (never mind fanboys buying 200 Eurofighters or 100 Rafales) is increase the efficacy of our JF-17. Even this limited improvement depends on availability of technology and funds. Such improvement includes (co-)developing or buying 5th missiles, AESA radar and advanced EW systems for our planes.
Secondly, you must remember that Pakistan has paid a heavy price for its nuclear and missile deterrent and its not for no reason. Why were we sanctioned by Pressler? why the sanctions after 1998? US offered upto $100billion for giving up nuclear assets. Sure we could have negotiated F-35 and paid by those $$ if we wanted an arms race.
No we cannot afford an arms race. India is much more bigger economy to compete with and it did not require the stealth F-22, nor its AESA radar or AIM missiles to bring down Russia. That is something we need to learn from if not from the Russians than from what is happening today in our country. People even claim that US is here for 'safeguard' our nukes. We gained nothing from it if we are to compete in an arms race.
In my opinion, and probably many might not agree, is that our conventional armed forces should be a strong fighting force but not there to match one -to-one on conventional front. In simpler words, PAF is no Iraq or Afghanistan airforce where you can walk in a park and drop some missiles. Any small scale tensions or strikes will be retaliated with full force using our conventional weapons like JF-17, F-16 or FC-20. But if any one dares go into full scale war then he should do so fully knowing our willingness and determination that our nuclear program, as Ch. Shujaat put it beautifully, is not for celebrating Shabraat, but an option we are going to exercise.
In addition, if and when better conventional armaments become available and we are able to purchase them, we should miss that opportunity that will enhance our nuclear threshold. And I do think this is the doctrine of the Pakistan army or atleast should be.
So my answer is: Yes PAF should still induct Thunder and FC-20 and upgrade their specifications as and when possible.
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