Is the Barak 8 SAM a big mistake?

[Lucid Thoughts]

bdesher mind your own business.

 

[ni8mare]

I think I answered it in post 59. Correct me If I am wrong.

your assessment is correct.....my point is with respect to aircraft at longer range

 

[desimorty]

but my point is B8 will not able to intercept aircraft who about to unload its SOWs at more then 70km ..........do you really think that you will able to deter a saturated attack ....kolkata will run out of B8......this not 90s anymore easy availability of cheap airborne AShm is threat ....you to need take that aircraft before it could unload its SOWs and to do that we need mix of B8 and SAM of 250 km just like american and chinese destroyer

I doubt they will run out of B8 that quickly. Large aircraft like Flankers will launch 2-4 AShM each, so 3 flankers or hornets can launch 6 or 9. Also the estra range and minimum range is what its for, to engage aircraft before they get into launch distance, hence development of Barak 8 ER. Also the minimum distance is .5 KM just enough to engage multiple AShM if detected lets say 25 to 50 KM away. Also note, that just because the Kolkatta only has 32 missiles, doesn't mean they can not add more. If they actually tried they would add a lot more. Barak 8 is a lot smaller than other missiles with similar performance. It would be interesting to know what they do with the extra space or perhaps that space is already used for internally placed Barak8s.

 

[desimorty]

Sea-skimmers can be detected coz Harpoon and Urans are also Sea-skimmers..
And Barak1 is very capable of destroying them but even Barak2 may have slight chance to engage a P-800..
Supersonic is hard kill at the given distance of 70kms, I doubt ever any Shipbourn SAM system engage any sea skimming supersonic missile till date..

Also would appreciate if you could find the engagement time for Barak1 / 2, from detecting to locking and firing.

If I knew the enagment time from detection to launch i'd be marketing the system for big buck. That is probably good though. Note, Barak 1 was tested against super sonic missiles when it was first inducted in the Indian Navy, the Barak 8 engaged Yakhont. Thats known. The Isrealis got a hold of a Yakhont recently and tested.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=10989

No doubt the Indian navy will want to test their Brahmos against Barak as well.
Its possible, even the USN can do it. Super sonic AShM make it difficult to detect and track and reduce the time but they are not godly as you would presume. They can be stopped, via hard kill or soft kill. Even at Mach 5. Its just more difficult.
Its also a give away, Super sonic missiles, are heavier, or shorter range compare to subsonic. So the amount that can be launched via fighter aircraft like Flankers, becomes limited. Either a saturated attack like what USN would do of light subsonic harpoons or small fast volleys of super sonic AShM and hope 1 can kill.
Theres also the difference of damage to the boats from a subsonic to supersonic. Less shots required from a supersonic missile to punch holes, and sink target compared to subsonic which relys on warhead size rather than kinetic energy.
So how many Brahmos required to sink a Nimitz class compared to subsonic missiles? Rule of thumb says half as many.
The Soviets also found a wark around the volume issue, by having massive large numbers of naval aircraft like Bears, and backfires etc...Its the same plan PLAN and IN are following, after all, both can not match the USN pound for pound but can use their geogrpahic advantage of land air fields.

 

[ni8mare]

I doubt they will run out of B8 that quickly. Large aircraft like Flankers will launch 2-4 AShM each, so 3 flankers or hornets can launch 6 or 9. Also the estra range and minimum range is what its for, to engage aircraft before they get into launch distance, hence development of Barak 8 ER

this main point here ............B8 MRSAM will only able to defend but for how long .........consider a sq(16) of jf with two ASHM each are fired from 100km will kolkata will be able to defend ..perhaps but after that (lets consider for moment that its 1 kolkata vs 16 jf).......jf will return to base unharmed

here even you are accepting that B8 ERSAM is needed to deter aircraft before they get into launch distance, because we will able to hit aircraft which down the asset and morale ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but 120 km will be enough because you and i both know pak/chini have better then 120 km
.

Also the minimum distance is .5 KM just enough to engage multiple AShM if detected lets say 25 to 50 KM away. Also note, that just because the Kolkatta only has 32 missiles, doesn't mean they can not add more. If they actually tried they would add a lot more. Barak 8 is a lot smaller than other missiles with similar performance. It would be interesting to know what they do with the extra space or perhaps that space is already used for internally placed Barak8s.

i know B8 is compact and light weight ..and has place for more in kolkata actually its disappointing that such a big ship but puny armament ..........but do we need more or a mix of maitri/ VLastra+ B8 + 250 km SAM like in burke RIM+ESSM+SM-2

heck even P17 has better weapon then P15A but still having less tonnage

 

[Ceonwulf]

Barak 8 is a piece of shit, and I find it hilarious that Indians continually try to defend the missile saying things like "barak 8 has high Gs" and "it is ok if barak 8 is only Mach 2, because speed doesn't matter when hitting a target head on".

These arguments are such bullshit.

Firstly, yes, barak 8 does have high G rating, but guess what? So does every other SAM! Aster 15/30 has a G rating grater than 60 at speeds of 4.5 Mach!! That is seriously high maneuverability and very impressive speed!

Barak 8 has a G rating of 80, higher than Aster, but remember, the faster a missile goes the less Gs it can pull. Because high Gs at high speeds increases the risk of rupturing and tearing the missile apart due to extreme levels of stress.

Therefore, the ONLY reason barak 8 has higher Gs than Aster, is because barak 8 goes less than 50% SLOWER than Aster if barak 8 traveled at speeds of Mach 4.5 like Aster, then Barak 8 would probably only have a maximum G rating of 30.

Secondly, SPEED MATTERS! That is why all modern Western, Russian and Chinese SAMs have very high Mach speeds.

Speed especially matters when performing Area Air defence when you have to protect ships spread over several nautical miles (like a carrier battle group). In these scenarios, you may have to perform cross interception and engage an enemy missile heading on a bearing of 45 degrees from your position many kms away. Barak is just too slow to cover the distance quick enough and intercept the target in time.

Barak 8 can only intercept targets heading directly towards it or heading towards ships very close to it.

Why a ship inside CBG be at 10 Km away?, there is no sense.

In the real world, the ships in a Carrier battle group are dispersed several nautical miles from each other.

A carrier battle group only sails close together for photo ops.

 

[Speeder 2]

Barak 8's pathetic range is more like a decent CIWS than a SAM.

 

[desimorty]

this main point here ............B8 MRSAM will only able to defend but for how long .........consider a sq(16) of jf with two ASHM each are fired from 100km will kolkata will be able to defend ..perhaps but after that (lets consider for moment that its 1 kolkata vs 16 jf).......jf will return to base unharmed

here even you are accepting that B8 ERSAM is needed to deter aircraft before they get into launch distance, because we will able to hit aircraft which down the asset and morale ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but 120 km will be enough because you and i both know pak/chini have better then 120 km

Any ship against 16 aircraft is in trouble even a Russian Cruiser armed with over a 100 Naval Grumbles. Your scenario doesn't make sense. Also that launch range of AShM like Harpoon is 120 KM which is why they are developing Barak 8 ER with an extra motor.

Barak 8 is a piece of shit, and I find it hilarious that Indians continually try to defend the missile saying things like "barak 8 has high Gs" and "it is ok if barak 8 is only Mach 2, because speed doesn't matter when hitting a target head on".

These arguments are such bullshit.

Firstly, yes, barak 8 does have high G rating, but guess what? So does every other SAM! Aster 15/30 has a G rating grater than 60 at speeds of 4.5 Mach!! That is seriously high maneuverability and very impressive speed!

Barak 8 has a G rating of 80, higher than Aster, but remember, the faster a missile goes the less Gs it can pull. Because high Gs at high speeds increases the risk of rupturing and tearing the missile apart due to extreme levels of stress.

Therefore, the ONLY reason barak 8 has higher Gs than Aster, is because barak 8 goes less than 50% SLOWER than Aster

Secondly, SPEED MATTERS! That is why all modern Western, Russian and Chinese SAMs have very high Mach speeds.

Speed especially matters when performing Area Air defence when you have to protect ships spread over several nautical miles (like a carrier battle group). In these scenarios, you may have to perform cross interception and engage an enemy missile heading on a bearing of 45 degrees from your position many kms away. Barak is just too slow to cover the distance quick enough and intercept the target in time.

Barak 8 can only intercept targets heading directly towards it or heading towards ships very close to it.

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Why a ship inside CBG be at 10 Km away?, there is no sense.
In the real world, the ships in a Carrier battle group are dispersed several nautical miles from each other.

A carrier battle group only sails close together for photo ops.

Reading others BS and posting your BS is a waste of our time.
We already have proven the Barak 8 has variable speed depending on the fuel available just like PAC SAM, your argument is pure BS just like you.

i know B8 is compact and light weight ..and has place for more in kolkata actually its disappointing that such a big ship but puny armament ..........but do we need more or a mix of maitri/ VLastra+ B8 + 250 km SAM like in burke RIM+ESSM+SM-2

heck even P17 has better weapon then P15A but still having less tonnage

For what exactly? Aircraft? Yea, they have solution, its called a Carrier battle group. The carrier protects the fleet against threats from the Air and surface. Such long range missiles will ever hardly kill their intended targets. The point is the guys in the air always have the advantage of sight, speed and reaction. Aint nothing a lone ship can do against aircraft except play dodge even with long range SAMs. If the Ships location is known, the aircraft can duck behind the horizon just like what missiles do.

Barak 8's pathetic range is more like a decent CIWS than a SAM.

Far better than HQ-9s limited ability to stop sea skimmers. 1 system does the job of both Hq-16/9 while being smaller and less expensive per missile. Best park is this is JV not a license production.

 

[Mike_Brando]

Nope, PhD in nanophototonics and electromagnetism doesn't apparently help in the luminosity of a person's irradiation.



Who is PKS?

Well,he is none other than our very own Prasun Kumar Sengupta

 

[Skull and Bones]

Well,he is none other than our very own Prasun Kumar Sengupta

Wasn't he called Prasun Chor Gupta ?

 

[Mike_Brando]

Wasn't he called Prasun Chor Gupta ?

Yup,there was a time when he did get that nick name but i just love the way he spins all his conspiracy theories.Btw,he may be a total nutjob but he is far more reliable than that LM agent Ajay Sukhla who is nothing but a disgrace to the entire Indian Defense Analyst community!!

 

[Skull and Bones]

Yup,there was a time when he did get that nick name but i just love the way he spins all his conspiracy theories.Btw,he may be a total nutjob but he is far more reliable than that LM agent Ajay Sukhla who is nothing but a disgrace to the entire Indian Defense Analyst community!!

When days are shit, you just got to smell it.

The wannabe journos earned their daily breads outta this Rafale/MMRCA fiasco.

 

[Mike_Brando]

When days are shit, you just got to smell it.

The wannabe journos earned their daily breads outta this Rafale/MMRCA fiasco.

Well,personally i am quite happy that the MoD has scrapped the MMRCA deal once and for all all.Now we can invest those extra $10 billions in the LCA project and make a beast out of it in the coming years.What's your take in this matter??

 

[Skull and Bones]

Well,personally i am quite happy that the MoD has scrapped the MMRCA deal once and for all all.Now we can invest those extra $10 billions in the LCA project and make a beast out of it in the coming years.What's your take in this matter??

The falling squadron numbers is a matter of concern, I wanted the deal to go through. We need to add 60 aircrafts each year, both frontline and second tier of defense, to have a powerful Air force. The shit is real in our neighborhood. We can't afford to go Brazil's way.

 

[Mike_Brando]

The falling squadron numbers is a matter of concern, I wanted the deal to go through. We need to add 60 aircrafts each year, both frontline and second tier of defense, to have a powerful Air force. The shit is real in our neighborhood. We can't afford to go Brazil's way.

I do agree with your PoV in this matter but i feel that we should rather become self reliant in the long run when it comes to the aeronautical industry.We can't forever depend on the western countries or for that matter Russia to fulfill our need,we have to start somewhere making our own aircraft and turbojet engines and this LCA project has given us that opportunity.Just look how P.R.C. revolutionized it's aeronautical industry over the years.It started manufacturing reverse engineered Mig-21 50 years back and now it's Aeronautical bureaus like Chengdu are developing their own indigenous 5th generation aircraft.