Is Pakistan Willing to Lose America? (NYT)

[cloud4000]

Pakistan’s willingness to lose American patronage is the clearest indicator that its interests in Afghanistan are not a product of ambition, or grandeur, but of deep and existential fears about the damage an unchecked India can do to Pakistan.

Pakistan doesn't stop boasting about its huge military and robust nuclear program yet it still has "existential fears" about India. And even if India had no presence in Afghanistan, these fears still persist.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Its just an opinion piece as one of the Members mentioned here.

 

[alibaz]

I

it is long overdue that Americans news published a Pakistani perspective. i have long insisted that the war was, is, and always will be about pakistan and attempts to weaken and wound pakistan, whether by europeans, russians or americans. this is the eternal truth of all the political games being played out in afghanistan in the last two centuries. to mask this truth and to tout instead the propaganda garbage about freedom and democracy just to garner domestic political support lest the electorate be alerted to the costliness and bloodliness of a direct conflict with pakistan doesn't make the underlying geopolitical calculation any less salient and relevant. that is why each time the war in afghanistan failed, the failing intruders would take off their masks and point fingers directly at Pakistan.

of course, if a foreign power really wants to win in afghanistan - and just win in afghanistan - there is a simple shortcut to it: to respect pakistani security interests in afghanistan and to defer to and accommodate these interests. but then, there is no point of europeans, russians and americans coming to afghanistan, is there?

Very rightly pointed out, Someone in US will educate Mr Trump regarding this. I foresee a lot of diplomacy in coming days and hopefully things will be resolved amicably.

 

[Techy Hassan]

I don't think Afghanis can do an attack like WTC again. Simply employ extremely strict security clearances for Muslims, Arab and Afghan passengers to USA and concentrate on its economic growth. If they attack any way US should drop ballistic missiles but make sure the missiles attack the right target. Sending an army in Afghanistan is not the solution. US should not risk the soldiers standing for liberty of mankind sending them to a barren land where any one can attack them. Instead they should make sure no bastard can enter US from this part of the world. Bullets fired from afghanistan cannot reach United States and if some how any missile is fired then the location from which it is fired can be cleaned with a MOAB.

 

[Liquidmetal]

More importantly is America willing to lose a robust ally like Pakistan. Who had stood by the USA for 70 years only to be sanctioned and bullied, and please don't talk about aid, it is much less than what we have given in just the last 15 years.

 

[CBU-105]

Pakistan’s willingness to lose American patronage is the clearest indicator that its interests in Afghanistan are not a product of ambition, or grandeur, but of deep and existential fears about the damage an unchecked India can do to Pakistan.

Pakistan has zero willingness to lose American patronage. Ask your chief of air staff or your admirals and generals if they're willing to ditch their fleets/gear in favour of Chinese goods.

With postponing talks till proper contact, a sit down with the Donald, is established between the two new leaderships in DC and Islamabad/Pindi, Pak are just trying to play a game of measured hardball with dealmaker Trump.

This is a decades old relationship, dating back to almost the conception of the nation state of Pakistan (or shortly thereafter)

At this stage, and after decades of cultivating Pakistan as an ally (including that big win vs the commies in Afghanistan), the US has Pakistan by the balls but it's not like Pak don't have any cards of their own.. geography, logistics for ISAF/NATO equipment supply routes, spilt blood..

Trump is just taking away Pakistan's jihadi 'good taliban' joker card, can't play that one anymore.. or you'll have much to lose.

India, for it's part, has actually done some good work in that country with infra, military equipment/officer training etc, and have managed to gain the goodwill of the anti-taliban warlord leadership.

A neutered/non militant "taliban" might find a fit in the peace process going forward but they are no more an effective blackmail tool. Trump will just level that whole country with MOABs if he has to, he really will, nobody should doubt that.

Trump wants a good outcome in Afghanistan and is willing to put his skin in the game with the troop surge, a big political risk because his core supporters want nothing to do with Afghanistan or any new wars.

Until Americans learn how to have an honest conversation with India about what Pakistan sees as its proxy warfare in Afghanistan and its brutal occupation of Kashmir, no amount of threats to Pakistan will help. Countries can be weaned from many things, but not from protecting themselves. Pakistan is definitely a problem in Afghanistan, but it is a problem of America’s making.

That won't work. India built infrastructure in Afghanistan and still exercises extreme restraint in the valley.

If it were like China or other authoritarians, nobody would be allowed to show up when local kids like Burhan Wani are put to rest. They get non lethal pellets in their eyes only because some idiots try and pelt rocks (potentially lethal projectiles) at the security forces.

Pakistan are a problem in Afghanistan, not entirely, but to a large degree of America's making.

Not all bad though. If the US, as a country, can change course so drastically and elect Trump, so can Pakistan. Throw your Afghan talib friends under the bus and make deals with Trump, why not.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Pakistan has zero willingness to lose American patronage. Ask your chief of air staff or your admirals and generals if they're willing to ditch their fleets/gear in favour of Chinese goods.

With postponing talks till proper contact, a sit down with the Donald, is established between the two new leaderships in DC and Islamabad/Pindi, Pak are just trying to play a game of measured hardball with dealmaker Trump.

This is a decades old relationship, dating back to almost the conception of the nation state of Pakistan (or shortly thereafter)

At this stage, and after decades of cultivating Pakistan as an ally (including that big win vs the commies in Afghanistan), the US has Pakistan by the balls but it's not like Pak don't have any cards of their own.. geography, logistics for ISAF/NATO equipment supply routes, spilt blood..

Trump is just taking away Pakistan's jihadi 'good taliban' joker card, can't play that one anymore.. or you'll have much to lose.

India, for it's part, has actually done some good work in that country with infra, military equipment/officer training etc, and have managed to gain the goodwill of the anti-taliban warlord leadership.

A neutered/non militant "taliban" might find a fit in the peace process going forward but they are no more an effective blackmail tool. Trump will just level that whole country with MOABs if he has to, he really will, nobody should doubt that.

Trump wants a good outcome in Afghanistan and is willing to put his skin in the game with the troop surge, a big political risk because his core supporters want nothing to do with Afghanistan or any new wars.


That won't work. India built infrastructure in Afghanistan and still exercises extreme restraint in the valley.

If it were like China or other authoritarians, nobody would be allowed to show up when local kids like Burhan Wani are put to rest. They get non lethal pellets in their eyes only because some idiots try and pelt rocks (potentially lethal projectiles) at the security forces.

Pakistan are a problem in Afghanistan, not entirely, but to a large degree of America's making.

Not all bad though. If the US, as a country, can change course so drastically and elect Trump, so can Pakistan. Throw your Afghan talib friends under the bus and make deals with Trump, why not.

Pakistan is already getting 8 Qing Submarines

Pakistan can afford to lose American patronage. China which can be used as the alternative to USA.

 

[shahbaz baig]

Not all bad though. If the US, as a country, can change course so drastically and elect Trump, so can Pakistan. Throw your Afghan talib friends under the bus and make deals with Trump, why not.

Do you really think that we are fools ? India Runs special cell to sabotage CPEC. and provided funds to mercenaries. India has been doing the same what once your own National Security Advisory said.

"How do you tackle Pakistan?.....We start working on Pakistan's vulnerabilities-- economic, internal security, political, isolating them internationally, it can be anything..... it can be defeating Pakistan's policies in Afghanistan...... You stop the terrorists by denying them weapons, funds and manpower. Deny them funds by countering with one-and-a-half times more funding. If they have 1200 crores give them 1800 crores and they are on our side...who are the Taliban fighting for? It's because they haven't got jobs or someone has misled them. The Taliban are mercenaries. So go for more of the covert thing (against Pakistan)..." Ajit Doval, India's National Security Advisor

U.S provided India the opportunity & India started to play with proxies against Pakistan. it's an open secrete.

on the other hand U.S.

US was aware of Afghan Taliban leadership's presence in Pakistan.

U.S is not aware of Afghan Taliban leadership's presence in Pakistan due to many military operation. all the militants & Taliban leadership have moved to Afghanistan including Haqqani Network after successfully military operation. U.S is talking about Past & deliberately stick with past. U.S commanders are most welcome to visit Quetta & pishawar. shura is nothing but the old tribe Jirga system.

right now all the safe heaven in Afghanistan not in Pakistan. U.S should not ignore your India's bad deeds which india did using afghan soils to destabilize Pakistan, U.S should not ignore Pakistan military Operations, U.S should think with cool mind. Pakistan is not hasty.


if there is India's role to destabilize Pakistan in Afghanistan then "do more" should be "no more". because U.S always ignore bad deeds of India infect ignored the Ajit Doval statement, U.S ignored your monkey kulbhushan jadhav confession and helped India's motive against Pakistan & still U.S asking for "Do more".

Pakistan is a problem, if Pakistan block NATO supply otherwise Pakistan dont have any role in Afghanistan. as British afghan war veteran major Robert Gallimore said

"British Afghan war veteran Major Robert Gallimore says he saw no presence of ISI in Afghanistan. During his two tours of duty in Afghanistan, he could hear all the radio conversations going on but never heard any Pakistani accent. He did, however, see "buckets and buckets of money" and rising Indian influence with many in Afghan Army blaming Pakistan for all their problems. Pakistan is their bogeyman. Major Gallimore sees the emergence of an India-Pakistan 21st century "Great Game" similar to its British-Russian predecessor. Many Afghans support creation of Pashtunistan by annexing northern part of Pakistan into Afghanistan. They blame Pakistan for the Durand Line, not the British or their own leaders who agreed to it. As a result, Afghanistan has become much more volatile and dangerous than ever before".

if Taliban holds more then half territory, is this Pakistan fault ? even Pakistan dont have any influence now. what other countries are doing in Afghanistan those have influence ? to get rid of the mess. but the fact is that U.S never wants to eradicate the U.S created mess in Afghanistan because U.S wants presence for indefinite time.

if U.S was really serious then U.S could have won this war long time before. U.S had every chance to win this war by negotiating with Taliban but U.S disrupted all the effort by Pakistan to ensure the peace in Afghanistan by killing Taliban leader after dealing peace talk. and right now once again U.S wants to deal with Taliban. what a shame.

 

[CBU-105]

Pakistan is already getting 8 Qing Submarines

Pakistan can afford to lose American patronage. China which can be used as the alternative to USA.

They may have begun the process of diversifying their military acquisition processes but a sudden brake/break is still not viable.

Not like the rest of the world (China, Russia) are throwing open their entire inventories to Pakistan.

For now, both China, and to a much lesser degree, Russia, are still not viable/reliable alternatives to the US as far as the PAK military goes. They might be in another 20 years or so though.

 

[cocomo]

That won't work. India built infrastructure in Afghanistan and still exercises extreme restraint in the valley

The infrastructure can be demolished if that is whats stopping India from effing off from Afghanistan.

 

[CBU-105]

if U.S was really serious then U.S could have won this war long time before.

I think with Trump at the helm now, they finally are serious.

Trump has already taken a big risk with the troop surge, his base hates it but he's doing it anyway. He'll do it without Pakistan if he has to.

 

[Super Falcon]

Yes when idiots like Trump become president and make USA once a great American as a banana state yes we want to loose USA

 

[CBU-105]

The infrastructure can be demolished if that is whats stopping India from effing off from Afghanistan.

Jihadi tactics 101.. Pak and their talib allies could do it, but it won't help, it'll only make things much worse.

The Pak military and ISI can not play the jihad card and hold Trump's America hostage anymore, those days are over.

 

[MultaniGuy]

lol We will see.

With China rising, many people see China as the alternative to American hegemony. Also as cultural alternative as well.

No need to accept American culture or creativity.

 

[Russell]

I think with Trump at the helm now, they finally are serious.

Trump has already taken a big risk with the troop surge, his base hates it but he's doing it anyway. He'll do it without Pakistan if he has to.

You honestly think an extra 4000 is going to make a difference in that hellhole?

He should have ignored the generals and left Afghanistan and everyone playing proxy wars to it.

Screw it...not worth the hassle.