Is Pakistan part of South Asia?

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

The land of Pakistan has historically been a melting pot for people from Central Asia,Western Asia(Middle-east) and South Asia and hence has spawned a rich,diverse hybrid kingdoms and cultures.

If we check the pre-Islamic era,we find a wide range of hybrid kindoms like:Indo-Persian,Indo-Greek,Indo-Sassanid,Greeco-Bactirian,Indo-Huns etc.

Modern country of Pakistan formed on 2 nation theory distances itself not only from the Indian roots,but also from the pre-islamic past.
So what is left after all the pruning is Afghans,Arabs,Turks,Central Asians.

The question is had it not been for Zia era's Islamization or had Jinnah been alive for a decade after the formation of Pakistan,would general Pakistani view about their history change?

 

[Jade]

Pakistan doesn't want to be apart of the middle east.

why don't you indians just leave us alone. even this article was written by an indian. don't you people have any shame.

This is an open forum. I have every right to comment on the topic that is posted here. If I have violated any of the forum rules you can report to the admin team

 

[PakiiZeeshan]

The land of Pakistan has historically been a melting pot for people from Central Asia,Western Asia(Middle-east) and South Asia and hence has spawned a rich,diverse hybrid kingdoms and cultures.

If we check the pre-Islamic era,we find a wide range of hybrid kindoms like:Indo-Persian,Indo-Greek,Indo-Sassanid,Greeco-Bactirian,Indo-Huns etc.

Modern country of Pakistan formed on 2 nation theory distances itself not only from the Indian roots,but also from the pre-islamic past.
So what is left after all the pruning is Afghans,Arabs,Turks,Central Asians.

The question is had it not been for Zia era's Islamization or had Jinnah been alive for a decade after the formation of Pakistan,would general Pakistani view about their history change?

Most Pakistanis will probably never consider ourselves the same as people who are dravidians or heavily mixed with dravidian blood

 

[nescafe]

i think we are more comfortable with an indian guy then an arab... see the demand for star plus....

defence hype aside...indians are cool man...they are subtle...the punjabi indians are infact soooo cool...they are fun to be with and they are very cultural .... i have worked with indians in GTL networks for two years, and trust me they have been better bosses then chinese or pakistanis. i am single and still the family guys among them have invited me at their homes for dinners...

i think i have praise for them...and yes, they are religious and ethical as well... the tamil indians are altogather different species and even normal indians dread them. see what they have done in malaysia. in 1991 , there was a marshal law in kuala lumpur because muslims were beheading the chinese who were beheading the tamils and vice versa.

ps: see my posts, i am a pro taliban fundamentalist but a rational view is a rational view

 

[MadDog]

Mr PakiZeeshan Ur claim that there are no families in south punjab declaring arab ancestory is absurd ....have u ever been there??...and talked to these families??...sir they can get seriously offended by your claim with no evidences
Read all the details below...hopefuly this will clarify the misconceptions and wrong stereotypes in the minds of pakistani and indian members on this forum

Here is what wikipedia says

Punjabi people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Pakistani Punjabis

Punjabis make up almost 45% of the population of Pakistan. The Punjabis found in Pakistan belong to groups known as biradaris, which descend from a common male ancestor. In addition, Punjabi society is divided into two divisions, the zamindar groups or qoums, traditionally associated with farming and the moeens, who are traditionally artisans. Zamindars are further divided into qoups that claim pre-Islamic ancestry such as the Rajput,Aheers, Harals, Ghosi (tribe), Jat, Shaikhs or (Muslim Khatri), Kambohs, Gujjars, Dogars and Rahmani (Muslim Labana). Zamindar groups claiming Central Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry include the Gakhars, Khattar, Awan, Mughal and Arain, comprising the main tribes in the north of the province, while Khagga, Bodla, Jhandir, Daudpota, Gardezi, Syed and Quraishi are found in the south, all of whom claim Arab ancestry. Immigrants from neighbouring regions, such as the Kashmiri, Pashtun and Baluch ,also form important element in the Punjabi population. Pashtun tribes like the Niazis and the Khakwanis, are integrated into Punjabi village life. Especially the members of the Niazi tribe, who see themselves as Punjabis first. They have big communities in Mianwali, Bakkar, Lahore, Faisalabad, Sahiwal and Toba Tek Singh. Major Moeen groups include the Lohar, Khateek, Rawal, Chhimba Darzi, Teli, Julaha, Mallaah, Mirasi and Muslim Shaikhs, who are associated with a particular crafts or occupation.[36]

Punjabis have traditionally and historically been farmers and soldiers, which has transferred into modern times with their dominance of agriculture and military fields in Pakistan. In addition, Punjabis in Pakistan have been quite prominent politically, having had many elected Members of Parliament. As the most ardent supporters of a Pakistani state, the Punjabis in Pakistan have shown a strong predilection towards the adoption of the Urdu language but nearly all speak Punjabi, and still identify themselves as ethnic Punjabis for the most part. Religious homogeneity remains elusive as a predominant Islamic Sunni-Shia population and a Christian minority have not completely wiped out diversity since the partition of British India. A variety of related sub-groups exist in Pakistan and are often considered by many Pakistani Punjabis to be simply regional Punjabis including the Seraikis (who overlap and are often considered transitional with the Sindhis) and Punjabi Pathans (which publications like Encyclopædia Britannica consider a transitional group between Punjabis and Pathans"


I dont know where u got this from...there are sayyeds, shahs , qureshis, Gakhars, Khattar, Awan, Mughal and Arain,Khagga, Bodla, Jhandir, Daudpota, Gardezi, people claiming central asian or arab ancestory...as far as ur question about the the link of South Punjab with Muslim empires this is the ummayad caliphate expansion in present day Pakistan

The detail about this can be found from this university of calgary link

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/caliphate/umTerritory.html

Please do research before claiming anything as it is highly offensive to those families who know their lineages...
I repeat Pakistan's Punjab is a mixture of local punjabi lineage and other lineages from different parts including mid-east, central asia and it also includes Punjabi Pathans like Niazis

As far as the claim of mr Pak Zeeshan about Sayyeds...sir sayyeds are all over the muslim world ... do ur research...rajput Pakistani and a sayyed Pakistani are proud of their different lineages but they are all pakistanis....plz dont give claims which are baseless and have no evidences to support them

 

[MadDog]

And Yes Pakistan is a part of South Aisa, a term probably coined by the British...but now due to changing circumstances in the world and war on terror after 9/11...The G8 countries espeacialy during the years of Bush administration have coined a new term "Greater Middle East"

Greater Middle East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the map link designated ( designated by G8 nations)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Middle_East_(orthographic_projection).svg

They have included Afghanistan and Pakistan into the newly designated region to serve their national interests (some times central asian countries are also included...details are in the link and on the map)as now days the security situation in these two countries is ideologicaly related closely with the coutries to their west i.e mid east conflicts or security situation...as these regions are emotionaly , culturaly and religously attached with each other which can be seen during the 80's when alot of arabs came to AfPak region.
This has been done keeping in mind the 'New World Order' and to serve the interests of G-8 world powers

Here is another link of the map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/GreaterMiddleEast2.png

It shows the traditional mid-east and the new one coined after 9/11 by the G-8 nations to devise their policies for this region as a whole.

 

[PakiiZeeshan]

Ur claim that there are no families in south punjab declaring arab ancestory is absurd ....have u ever been there...and talked to these families...sir they can get seriously offended by your claim with no evidences

Here is what wikipedia says

Punjabi people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Pakistani Punjabis
Punjabis make up almost 45% of the population of Pakistan. The Punjabis found in Pakistan belong to groups known as biradaris, which descend from a common male ancestor. In addition, Punjabi society is divided into two divisions, the zamindar groups or qoums, traditionally associated with farming and the moeens, who are traditionally artisans. Zamindars are further divided into qoups that claim pre-Islamic ancestry such as the Rajput,Aheers, Harals, Ghosi (tribe), Jat, Shaikhs or (Muslim Khatri), Kambohs, Gujjars, Dogars and Rahmani (Muslim Labana). Zamindar groups claiming Central Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry include the Gakhars, Khattar, Awan, Mughal and Arain, comprising the main tribes in the north of the province, while Khagga, Bodla, Jhandir, Daudpota, Gardezi, Syed and Quraishi are found in the south, all of whom claim Arab ancestry. Immigrants from neighbouring regions, such as the Kashmiri, Pashtun and Baluch ,also form important element in the Punjabi population. Pashtun tribes like the Niazis and the Khakwanis, are integrated into Punjabi village life. Especially the members of the Niazi tribe, who see themselves as Punjabis first. They have big communities in Mianwali, Bakkar, Lahore, Faisalabad, Sahiwal and Toba Tek Singh. Major Moeen groups include the Lohar, Khateek, Rawal, Chhimba Darzi, Teli, Julaha, Mallaah, Mirasi and Muslim Shaikhs, who are associated with a particular crafts or occupation.[36]

Punjabis have traditionally and historically been farmers and soldiers, which has transferred into modern times with their dominance of agriculture and military fields in Pakistan. In addition, Punjabis in Pakistan have been quite prominent politically, having had many elected Members of Parliament. As the most ardent supporters of a Pakistani state, the Punjabis in Pakistan have shown a strong predilection towards the adoption of the Urdu language but nearly all speak Punjabi, and still identify themselves as ethnic Punjabis for the most part. Religious homogeneity remains elusive as a predominant Islamic Sunni-Shia population and a Christian minority have not completely wiped out diversity since the partition of British India. A variety of related sub-groups exist in Pakistan and are often considered by many Pakistani Punjabis to be simply regional Punjabis including the Seraikis (who overlap and are often considered transitional with the Sindhis) and Punjabi Pathans (which publications like Encyclopædia Britannica consider a transitional group between Punjabis and Pathans"


I dont know where u got this from...there are sayyeds, shahs , qureshis, Gakhars, Khattar, Awan, Mughal and Arain,Khagga, Bodla, Jhandir, Daudpota, Gardezi, people claiming central asian or arab ancestory...as far as ur question about the the link of South Punjab with Muslim empires this is the ummayad caliphate expansion in present day Pakistan

The detail about this can be found from this university of calgary link

The Islamic World to 1600: The Caliphate and the First Islamic Dynasty (Territorial Expansion)

Please do research before claiming anything as it is highly offensive to those families who know their lineages...
I repeat Pakistan's Punjab is a mixture of local punjabi lineage and other lineages from different parts including mid-east, central asia and it also includes Punjabi Pathans like Niazis

My claim is not "absurd".

Look at the distribution of Haplogroup J (arab/semetic marker)

In Pakistan arab genes are only present in Sindh and Balochistan (still at low levels), arab genes are not really present in Punjab.

Most Pakistani Punjabis are related to indian Punjabis.

And there's no such thing as a "Punjabi Pathan". Your either just a Punjabi straight up, or a citizen of Punjab. Niazis, and other non-Punjabis living in Punjab are citizens of Punjab.

 

[Omar1984]

Greater Middle East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the map link designated ( designated by G8 nations)



File:Greater Middle East (orthographic projection).svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wouldn't it be great if all the countries in green were one huge country

 

[eastwatch]

To say the least, Pakistan has always been a part of South Asia or the greater Hindustan. Even if some of its people have immigrated in the past from some other poor regions of central asia or from infertile deserts of a poor Arabia to a rich land of Hindustan to have a better economic opportunity, it does not mean that they are not natives of Hindustan.

Many others have also immigrated to this rich land many thousand years before these muslims arrived. However, all are now interwined either religiously, culturally or linguistically and do not have good reasons to claim to belong to the poor regions from where their ancestors came.

An unproved claim of less than a quarter of ancestory to other regions should not be used to deny the three quarters of proved ancestory by any, Hindu and Muslim alike, who came and domiciled in Hindustan. Those immigration matters should better be left to the historians and anthropologists for intellectual discussions.

 

[MadDog]

@Mr PakkiZeeshan

Good...so sir what you want to tell me is that starting nearly 1200-1300 years ago the arrival of 20000 ummayad cavilary in south punjab and consequent rule of abbasids, ummayads, and tons of central asian, afghan kingdoms for 800-1000 years....on this region...and settlement of people from these regions in this land which was at the time part of the afformentioned empires IS ALL A FALACY........................................

sir i think you should read the history again instead of going on the map of semetic lineage...here we go i can show you that all your pathans are of semetic origin..this isnt even shown in your map....this is a research done by an American Jew..what would you have to say on this..ur 'supposedly accurate map" doesnt show this

YouTube - Pashtun Taliban, the descendants of the Jews Part 1

what would ur research have to say about the semetic group present in North east of India...some of whom have even gone to Israel...This too isnt shown on your map

Here it is

YouTube - Israel's lost tribe in India - Mizoram Jews, a special report


Sir i dont believe in the bloodline reasearch u posted as nowdays races have intermarried since hundreds of years and the data is supposed to be indeed inaccurate...and it depends how many people were included in doing this.

If there is no thing as "punjabi pathan" then there is nothing as Canadian/american or british Pakistanis...unfortuneately the latter and the former both exist and are part of this world.......Sir please do more research......instead of just insisting on something which no one buys in todays world

 

[MadDog]

Indeed sir...this was a relaity when Ummayads (Muslim caliphate) ruled from todays Pakistan upto Spain .... a country which included our balochistan, south punjab and sindh on one side and Lisbon and Spain on the other side.

Here is the link
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Age-of-caliphs.png

 

[PakiiZeeshan]

Dude, i don't know why your so hell bent on trying to prove that Punjabis are related to arabs? Even if some Punjabis did have an arab ancestor maybe a thausand years ago, why does that matter today. that was just one ancestor.

 

[PakiiZeeshan]

MadDog,

Don't reply to me anymore please.

Thanks.

 

[MadDog]

Sir i never said all Pakistani Punjabis are from arabs...plz read my links/posts again...i said that Pakistani Punjabis are a mixture of local and foreign lineages (not only arab, but central asian and afghan too like gardezis etc)....yes it does matter in todays world as we should be proud that Pakistan today has so many ethinicities living together and united by their faith...we can be a model country for the muslim world...cuz of this...so its realy important.

I apologize if i hurt your feelings in any way...i wont reply again

Peace

 

[PureAryan]

The irony is when Iran wants to be part of South Asia; Pakistan wants to be a part of Middle East.

From the Wikipedia, this is what is South Asia

Iranis considers it as an insult to be classified as a south asian, which iranis are you talking about, Americans have classed pakistan as an extension of greator middle east,

Pakistani historians put pakistan in central asia