What's new

Is literacy level a basic measure of morality, humanity, honesty & character of a nation?

If you are not the master of your actions, who is?

A murderer may use a similar excuse after stabbing your family member, will you buy that excuse?

If external factors can influence you to the point that you cant distinguish good and bad how can society distinguish you from an mentally challenged man who would even touch shit coz he isnt right in the mind? Such a man really isnt master over his actions of if you have say muscular dystrophy and somehow managed to stab someone ...then we can say your actions really might not be yours, and external factors like lack of control on muscles led to the "accident"...

If external factors can influence you soo much that it can kill your will to do good, then you def have pathetic willpower! ;)

Yet, there are many strong willed murderers and rapists, accidents happen every second somewhere, and well-meaning intentions go awry everywhere. We are all agents of Fate and Chaos. :drag:
 
.
Yet, there are many strong willed murderers and rapists, accidents happen every second somewhere, and well-meaning intentions go awry everywhere. We are all agents of Fate and Chaos. :drag:
I would love to see your expression had a murderer used that for the murder of someone you know :enjoy:

Anyone and everyone will be off the hook with such thinking!
 
.
I would love to see your expression had a murderer used that for the murder of someone you know :enjoy:

Anyone and everyone will be off the hook with such thinking!

If what you said came true, it would only further strengthen my argument. My good intentions and actions would then have not brought me the peace and happiness that I deserved. External actors(the murderer) and factors(the crime) would have conspired to disillusion me, wouldn't they?:)
 
.
If what you said came true, it would only further strengthen my argument. My good intentions and actions would then have not brought me the peace and happiness that I deserved. External actors(the murderer) and factors(the crime) would have conspired to disillusion me, wouldn't they?:)
Well if that is true then you def are not a human deserving any reason to live ;)
What a waste :tsk:

I mean seriously you wish to promote chaos and transpire mischief ...such people only cause problems in societies!

You know those who blame people for their short comings instead of bothering to improve themselves...They are the weakest people!
 
.
You maybe right -- in pak I think a person who can write his name is called literate whereas in india its 5th class pass. So education level might be a better term here

Let us take this further than just literacy. There is education which creates technical knowledge, and there is education that creates social and moral awareness. The two need not be mutually exclusive, but often are.

So, I think that the answer to your question is that basic measures of morality, humanity, honesty and character of a nation undoubtedly improve with education that creates awareness, everything else being equal.
 
.
Ukraine has 99% literacy rate and on the corruption index out of 174 countries it's 144 on the list (tied with Bangladesh ) , literacy does not always translate into less corruption
 
.
I think the character of the Nation has more to do with culture and less to do with literacy. Culture defines the values that one holds most dearly to the heart, not literacy. Dissemination of those values, however can be faster if literacy levels are high.

There are aspects of every culture, without exception, of 'civilised' people which requires reform if not outright abolition. Primitive people have relatively lesser residues of such toxic 'culture'. Some cultural values are positively harmful.

The point is that culture, like all else relating to the human condition, is a movable feast; it changes. Education may help to modify culture in positive manners. A pessimist will not entirely agree, and is able to point at some coarsening aspects of evolved culture which are pretty revolting themselves. The debate on culture vs. education is unlikely to come to a satisfactory conclusion any time soon.
 
.
There are aspects of every culture, without exception, of 'civilised' people which requires reform if not outright abolition. Primitive people have relatively lesser residues of such toxic 'culture'. Some cultural values are positively harmful.

The point is that culture, like all else relating to the human condition, is a movable feast; it changes. Education may help to modify culture in positive manners. A pessimist will not entirely agree, and is able to point at some coarsening aspects of evolved culture which are pretty revolting themselves. The debate on culture vs. education is unlikely to come to a satisfactory conclusion any time soon.

Agreed.:)

Well if that is true then you def are not a human deserving any reason to live ;)
What a waste :tsk:

I mean seriously you wish to promote chaos and transpire mischief ...such people only cause problems in societies!

You know those who blame people for their short comings instead of bothering to improve themselves...They are the weakest people!

Well, that's what most of us think about others, but not about ourselves. We're all agents of change, every one of us. And change is the essence of all action and the ensuing chaos.
 
.
Without attempting to sidetrack this thread. A deeper question needs to be asked before addressing what the nature of human morality, ethics and ideals are all about.

Where did morals come from? Where did these guidelines come from? How did they develop?
Many will say religion and that is true. But there are cultures and people completely cut off from the usual Abrahamic religions and the Dharmic religions of the East.

ie the people of the Americas, who developed some very similar moral standards to ours, their concepts of life were also somewhat similar, their ideas of religion mirrored the rest of the world in some ways.

Where did humanity make that leap from being survivalist to developing rules and ideas meant for groups, loyalties and so on?

Yes.
I think education is a measure of all that you mentioned. But this statement is conditional.

Let me explain:

1.Traditional societies without education and more rural are more ethical/moral/social law abiding than transitional societies. In traditional societies, the concept/institution of honour and shame forces people to behave in a socially acceptable manner by and large.

2. Transitional societies - where the population is split between educated and non educated, urban and rural.
These societies have highest problems of morality, legality among other things.

This is because in such societies, the educated find ways and loopholes to exploit the non educated. Those with malafide intentions(rich or poor, educated or uneducated) are able to carry out their agendas because there is no instrument of control over them.
The old institutions of honour, face & shame are diluted and even removed as people in urban centers don't have their relatives or are relatively more anonymous than in traditional societies like villages. Thus old restrictions/instruments of control are no longer binding on the people as they used to be.

And the new Institutions of the State which though present and meant to effectively replace the old social institutions of honour/shame and are meant to deter those who have malafide intentions, are not effective. This is because the institutions of such States are also not fully developed and are thus used for exploitation as well.

Thus morality/rule of law/etc is lowest in such societies compared to traditional societies and developed/completely educated societies.

3. Developed/Completely educated societies - Majority of the people here are educated, know their rights, also know what to demand of state institutions and force them to act, thus making state institutions become competent and capable and deter those who have malafide intentions.

------------------------------------------
Now countries like India and Pakistan are in phase 2 ie Transitional societies.

So Society type 1 - ie the Traditional Society looks better because it had better behaviour, better morality and better ethics.

However, the same would be achieved once countries like India and Pakistan get their population really educated and move towards Society type 3 - the Developed/Educated Society.

I can give so many many example of how institutions in India are slowly and one by one(yes, its that slow) becoming better because of fierce, massive public pressure and scrutiny on them. Ofcourse few get worse with time as well but they are much lesser in number.

But as more and more people in India are getting educated, society is evolving, people are literally forcing State Institutions to become better and provide better service. This is a fight as those at the top of the society want the institutions to keep being malafide, and so changing each institution is a whole new fight each time. But is it is happening right here.

And once a critical number of important Institutions in India become better, they will exert a powerful force that will make the rest of the institutions change faster.
Ask me and I will give you examples of the Institutions that have become better and worse in India to illustrate my point. And I can give you diverse examples from bad social behaviour like rape to judicial Institutions to electoral Institutions.

And this is exactly how the Western societies also developed. They underwent the same transitions. Their people also fought hard to change their institutions one by one till an eco-system of good institutions developed.

And the thing about this is, humans generally behave better/more humane when they feel that there is justice in the system. If you make the system better, the humans will also start becoming better which will make the institutions even better. Its a virtuous circle.

Similarly, there is also a vicious cycle. The people will become more brutal, barbaric, less ethical if the system starts failing them, then the system starts failing more because the people are becoming worse. No one can say what comes first, its a cumulative effect.

All this happens as more and more people get educated.

I must say, it's the first I've ever heard something like this but I commend you for such insight.
Wonderful.

And you're absolutely right, the development of the civil liberties of Europe was not bought about by magic, it was the blood and the will of the people. Probably the biggest step in that in my opinion was the French revolution.

The problem with Pakistan in particular is a backwards mindset of people. Honestly, as an expat, when I even sit down with some people, family members back home, they way we think is completely different, the thoughts we interpret differently. They for example don't value the idea that change in society is bought about by it's people, they look outward and expect the change come from elsewhere.

Another problem with Pakistanis is their view of morality, they feel that beyond what they know about their religion, there is no morality. This kind of thinking gives some in our society the ideas that as long as they pray 5 times a day, they grow beards and portray themselves as pious, their actions need not be changed. It's misunderstanding religion as a driving force of ethics and morality.

Here in Pakistan, when someone sees the ills of the world around them, rarely if ever have I seen them (PDF is an exception) look inward to change themselves and make the change around them, they will ask for a leader with an iron fist to hammer all the nails in to place, this leader can't be appointed by people either, oh no... he must miraculously swoop down from the sky.

Another question I have to ask myself is, is our culture compatible with the new world order?

We're living in an age where the evolution of knowledge and ideas is becoming exponential. How can society with such deep divides, one which lives practically in the outside world and one which hasn't tasted the outside world not disagree with each other, not conflict?
 
.
I wish all threads were of this quality.

Without attempting to sidetrack this thread. A deeper question needs to be asked before addressing what the nature of human morality, ethics and ideals are all about.

Without attempting to sidetrack this thread. A deeper question needs to be asked before addressing what the nature of human morality, ethics and ideals are all about.

Where did morals come from? Where did these guidelines come from? How did they develop?
Many will say religion and that is true. But there are cultures and people completely cut off from the usual Abrahamic religions and the Dharmic religions of the East.

ie the people of the Americas, who developed some very similar moral standards to ours, their concepts of life were also somewhat similar, their ideas of religion mirrored the rest of the world in some ways.

Where did humanity make that leap from being survivalist to developing rules and ideas meant for groups, loyalties and so on?




I must say, it's the first I've ever heard something like this but I commend you for such insight.
Wonderful.

And you're absolutely right, the development of the civil liberties of Europe was not bought about by magic, it was the blood and the will of the people. Probably the biggest step in that in my opinion was the French revolution.

The problem with Pakistan in particular is a backwards mindset of people. Honestly, as an expat, when I even sit down with some people, family members back home, they way we think is completely different, the thoughts we interpret differently. They for example don't value the idea that change in society is bought about by it's people, they look outward and expect the change come from elsewhere.

Another problem with Pakistanis is their view of morality, they feel that beyond what they know about their religion, there is no morality. This kind of thinking gives some in our society the ideas that as long as they pray 5 times a day, they grow beards and portray themselves as pious, their actions need not be changed. It's misunderstanding religion as a driving force of ethics and morality.

Here in Pakistan, when someone sees the ills of the world around them, rarely if ever have I seen them (PDF is an exception) look inward to change themselves and make the change around them, they will ask for a leader with an iron fist to hammer all the nails in to place, this leader can't be appointed by people either, oh no... he must miraculously swoop down from the sky.

Another question I have to ask myself is, is our culture compatible with the new world order?

We're living in an age where the evolution of knowledge and ideas is becoming exponential. How can society with such deep divides, one which lives practically in the outside world and one which hasn't tasted the outside world not disagree with each other, not conflict?

Our obsession with religion is holding us back. The portion in bold is a section to be read over and over again.
 
Last edited:
.
@Jungibaaz morality comes from us living in groups. Other herd/social animals too display behaviour that is against their individual survival.(lion pride, elephant family or orca pod) Human being made much more complex social structure and hence our moral sense is much more complex.
 
.
@Contrarian I think your idea of blaming educated for finding loopholes in system make little sense to me. I dont see educated necessarily doing immoral or inhuman acts in India hiding behind relative anonymity.

I disagree, I think @Contrarian is right to an extent.

By exploitation, nobody means slavery or cruelty, but subtle forms exist too.
The entire world we live in, we're in times of modern capitalism. If exploitation you define as inequity, then there's plenty of that.

And let me tell you all one thing, poverty is a disease that is not curable, in fact, even trying to decrease it is impossible.
Utopian societies are the dream of science fiction. For as long as there are rich, there will be poor, for as long as one man has more resources than he needs, there will be those who have less than they need.

Now don't get me wrong, capitalism is indeed not bad at all, greed can drive men to do great things, if greed didn't drive the pharmaceutical industry for example, life saving cancer drugs wouldn't be developed.

But if then, the goal is to make money, and charge more, you put those very things that work for humanity out of the reach of those who needed it most.

A sad fact of our existence is that on earth, in these lives, humanity cannot win. There's always a catch and a trade-off.
Science takes us to the moon, science makes weapons that could destroy us all. Ideas fuels the civil rights movement, ideas cause men to fly planes through buildings.

Like I said, there's going to be no utopian civilisation at any time soon I think. So who decides what's moral and immoral, what's immoral but necessary?

One thing I find about this discussion is, the more answers you try to put up on here, the more questions you get in return.
 
.
@Jungibaaz morality comes from us living in groups. Other herd/social animals too display behaviour that is against their individual survival.(lion pride, elephant family or orca pod) Human being made much more complex social structure and hence our moral sense is much more complex.

Are we all sitting in a circle looking into the wrong fire? Groups might breed morality, as a yardstick to measure good and bad behaviour; good and bad behaviour themselves being defined as good for the group, or what has been prescribed as good for the group, and the reverse. So good and bad behaviour are pretty much determined by decisions taken elsewhere, outside the individual.

So is that the right subject for discussion?

Should we not be looking long and hard at individual rights, rather than group morality?
 
.
Another question I have to ask myself is, is our culture compatible with the new world order?

We're living in an age where the evolution of knowledge and ideas is becoming exponential. How can society with such deep divides, one which lives practically in the outside world and one which hasn't tasted the outside world not disagree with each other, not conflict?
Being a traditionally conservative society,it looks practically impossible in our respective countries. India,being an ideal example of innumerous faiths,cultures,languages within a single national boundary,shows how difficult it has been to synchronize our conventional belief system with the newer ideas in the past It is difficult for me to analyze this part taking India as a whole for example.So,I will try find a convincing answer by taking a relatively smaller society.

The Brahminic design of social exploitation faced challenges in the middle if nineteenth century Bengal when a number of social reformers like Raja Rammohan Roy revolted against the evil Sati System and Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar tried to introduce Widow marriage. The unfortunate part was contemporary educated society did not show much enthusiasm in these efforts. Vidyasagar had to face immense opposition,threats and mockery from his own colleagues. Rammohan had to die deserted,impoverished in Bristol. The same fate awaited for the revolutionary poet Madhusudan Dutta and spiritual reformer Vivekananda who labored to bring the traditionally "prisoner of the past" society to the fast flowing progressive ideas.


But the gleaming part of the above endeavors is these individual efforts slowly but increasingly influenced and created an awareness in the general mass in the Bengal.Gradually(though not as fast as Europe which emancipated itself from the tutelage of Catholic orthodoxy) Educated and backward societies as well were relieved from some really sickening belief system quicker than other parts of India, I don't know how much the growing intellectual intercourse between the English company recruits had helped in this change but it definitely played a part.

India is a country of thousand beliefs within a single belief system, thousand societies within a society itself. Here a backward caste might refuse to marry another backward caste who is inferior in their own social order. Here still people encourage the advertisements which endorse fairness as a necessary criteria to achieve success in professional as well as in married life. And instead of a series of social and political movements we have not find the hint of success yet. Though in my humble opinion,the possibility of individual movements like Roy or Vivekananda is next to impossible ,still I believe traditionally juggernaut societies like India and Pakistan will move slowly towards a new world order but by an economic and commerce revolution definitely, if not by socialist movements.
 
.
I will give you an example Quran says dont discriminate

Is that all that is written in the Quran? You're response is not even worthy of a proper answer.
 
Last edited:
.
Back
Top Bottom