'IRNSS-1A - The Star of Navigation'

[Rig Vedic]

There is a budget for ISRO because UPA has given ISRO a budget. If UPA/ COngress had not given the budget, created the departments, paid for the salaries, paid for the facilities and the programs, there would be no ISRO.

Your idiocy is breathtaking.

The scientists are not paid from Maino family Swiss bank accounts.

Rahul Dumbo does not do the design and planning.

Wake up!

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Your idiocy is breathtaking.

The scientists are not paid from Maino family Swiss bank accounts.

Rahul Dumbo does not do the design and planning.

Wake up!

are you aware of what a 'Govt Department' means?

 

[David James]

Your idiocy is breathtaking.

The scientists are not paid from Maino family Swiss bank accounts.

Rahul Dumbo does not do the design and planning.

Wake up!

1. Please don't derail this thread with cheap politics of cheap politicians modi/rahul/sonia/advani to hell with them.

2. You should apply same logic with the modi whose supporters and feetlickers boast about him. Modi also have not paid to anyone from his own pocket.

 

[newdelhinsa]

1. Please don't derail this thread with cheap politics of cheap politicians modi/rahul/sonia/advani to hell with them.

2. You should apply same logic with the modi whose supporters and feetlickers boast about him. Modi also have not paid to anyone from his own pocket.

Where in this thread anyone has supported Modi or BJP. You Congress-I poodles are becoming rogue by every day.

 

[Kloitra]

There is a budget for ISRO because UPA has given ISRO a budget. If UPA/ COngress had not given the budget, created the departments, paid for the salaries, paid for the facilities and the programs, there would be no ISRO. No one in INdia asked congress to create/ invest in space. The average Indian DOESN'T CARE and there are no votes here. Congress was not elected to make rockets, but to take leadership decisions- create and maintain a body of scientific experts who will do this for the country even if most ordinary people don't know anything about these things. In nuruting ISRO as a professional organization, keeping them focussed and supporting them to the hilt, there are few leaderships as good as Indian.
And yeah 'Kennedy Pushed NASA' my a$$. He's done what COngress is doing set high ambitions- GPS equivalent, Mars/ Moon landing, Human Space Flight. They have not only set these ambitions, but also given REAL CASH and institutions to achieve it (Every single penny with ISRO today is from the union budget). They're not like pakistan, saying big big things not giving money. They're not like Brazil, lots of money but little real progress because of lack of consistent leadership support. Through thick and thin, they've kept the agency both funded and focussed.

Like I said- GSLV first flew in 2001 , we're in 2013 each launch failure cost us 400 crores in rocket alone, forget the satellites. If no one is losing their job, if there are no 'shake-ups', if there are no restrictions (let's not go to mars now but just focus on what we have), that's coz of a VERY mature approach to the whole business by the Congress. I don't know any other country where this will happen.

No one elected them to make rockets, but to develop the country. And building rockets and nurturing science is part of it. They are doing what is the minimum expectation from them. I cannot praise them for doing something what I expect them to do. Hell, they consider allowing computers in late 80's to be an extraordinary achievement.

And comparison of Kennedy and Indian govt is utterly wrong. He sat the target of moon in 60's. India has target of a working cryogenic 50 years later. Why do you compare with Brazil and Pakistan. Why not China, Korea and Japan? Everything aside, look at how these govts fostered science and tech.

All Indian govt (politicians) have done is giving right people (not all) authority, and not interfere (not always) with them. Why do you want to praise them for it? Did you not expect even this much? In fact, I would criticize them for several 'mishaps', which otherwise would have led to a much better scientific/technological growth in country.

As far as science is concerned, India is utterly dependent on foreign countries. Has to import from pin to plane. It has failed to produce even the most basic equipments. Go in any lab, a lot of stuff would be imported. I am talking about basic stuff. Optical tables, lenses, crystals, lasers, fibers etc. There is not even a commercial chip manufacturing industry.

If I remember correctly, after Soviet collapse, Indian govt was requested to accommodate the out of work scientists. Siting some reasons, GOI was not able to do it. Now think where would Indian agencies would be, had the experienced Russian scientists working there?
Another example, what is the coordination between research agencies (DRDO et al) and defence forces? Do I need to elaborate?

Do you know HAL, HSL, MDL etc were private companies. Were much more productive while they were. Says a lot about the influence of govt. HAL had developed Marut in 60s. Govt has done a nice job of keeping the knowledge and experience intact! The list is so long..

Despite 62', and knowing the two front threat, it was in 70s that govt gave a target to get self reliant in missiles. That too, short range one. Compared to that, Chins started developing ICBM in 65'. I have no idea why would you praise Indian govt in anything on science. We have ambiguous policies, snail paced development, abysmal infra, and what not. Off course, you can always have lower standards in mind, and feel good about achieving them.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

No one elected them to make rockets, but to develop the country. And building rockets and nurturing science is part of it. They are doing what is the minimum expectation from them. I cannot praise them for doing something what I expect them to do. Hell, they consider allowing computers in late 80's to be an extraordinary achievement.

And comparison of Kennedy and Indian govt is utterly wrong. He sat the target of moon in 60's. India has target of a working cryogenic 50 years later. Why do you compare with Brazil and Pakistan. Why not China, Korea and Japan? Everything aside, look at how these govts fostered science and tech.

All Indian govt (politicians) have done is giving right people (not all) authority, and not interfere (not always) with them. Why do you want to praise them for it? Did you not expect even this much? In fact, I would criticize them for several 'mishaps', which otherwise would have led to a much better scientific/technological growth in country.

As far as science is concerned, India is utterly dependent on foreign countries. Has to import from pin to plane. It has failed to produce even the most basic equipments. Go in any lab, a lot of stuff would be imported. I am talking about basic stuff. Optical tables, lenses, crystals, lasers, fibers etc. There is not even a commercial chip manufacturing industry.

If I remember correctly, after Soviet collapse, Indian govt was requested to accommodate the out of work scientists. Siting some reasons, GOI was not able to do it. Now think where would Indian agencies would be, had the experienced Russian scientists working there?
Another example, what is the coordination between research agencies (DRDO et al) and defence forces? Do I need to elaborate?

Do you know HAL, HSL, MDL etc were private companies. Were much more productive while they were. Says a lot about the influence of govt. HAL had developed Marut in 60s. Govt has done a nice job of keeping the knowledge and experience intact! The list is so long..

Despite 62', and knowing the two front threat, it was in 70s that govt gave a target to get self reliant in missiles. That too, short range one. Compared to that, Chins started developing ICBM in 65'. I have no idea why would you praise Indian govt in anything on science. We have ambiguous policies, snail paced development, abysmal infra, and what not. Off course, you can always have lower standards in mind, and feel good about achieving them.

Oww, so now you agree that congress not being able to Design rockets is not a problem. Again WTF do you mean 'minimum expectation'? Whose minimum expectation is it? Yours? No one on the street cares about Space Program, who are you to force your expectation on them? Fact- No one had any expectations of doing anything in space at all- it was the congress that set out early on and nurtured it. No one gave credit to the congress for the 1st 20 years when SLV3, ASLV etc. had their share of failures. Even when PSLV failed initially who gave ISRO continuing moral and financial support long before moon and mars became buzzwords? Who were the people who identified Kalam as the rising star and gave him control of the Space and Defence projects? Who funded the labs and launch pads and the giant campuses at Sri Harikota and Mahendragiri? Who kept budgeting the organization year after year every year so that they kept increasing their staff, getting better facilities, more people, more projects?

And don't BS about 'snail paced' development, the economic policies the congress implemented were very much the policies that people wanted to see implemented. Ask the BJP why they were ready to lynch the congress on insurace, telecom and rupee devaluation? If the congress implemented some policies, I can assure you there was OVERWHELMING support for that to the extent that govts were elected on the mandate of nationalization only. COngress was not the only one- EVERYONE wanted it. Responsibility rests on all shoulders. If you wanna take credit away from the good work that they have done, it is just hypocrisy and lies.

 

[Kloitra]

Oww, so now you agree that congress not being able to Design rockets is not a problem.

It is never a problem that they fail at something, problem is, they didn't even attempted till very late. As I said, the green light for Agni series, for a few hundred kilometer was given in 70s. China, with comparable economy and population, started its ICBM development in 65. Chinese govt had a clear attitude towards self reliance, that led to in house development of almost everything.

Again WTF do you mean 'minimum expectation'? Whose minimum expectation is it? Yours? No one on the street cares about Space Program, who are you to force your expectation on them? Fact- No one had any expectations of doing anything in space at all- it was the congress that set out early on and nurtured it. No one gave credit to the congress for the 1st 20 years when SLV3, ASLV etc. had their share of failures. Even when PSLV failed initially who gave ISRO continuing moral and financial support long before moon and mars became buzzwords? Who were the people who identified Kalam as the rising star and gave him control of the Space and Defence projects? Who funded the labs and launch pads and the giant campuses at Sri Harikota and Mahendragiri? Who kept budgeting the organization year after year every year so that they kept increasing their staff, getting better facilities, more people, more projects?

Minimum expectation is that they would listen to right people, give them authority, and not interfere with them. That they would lead the country such that there is economic and social development, both of which are closely related to education, science and technology. Education helps in creating a competent workforce. Science and tech helps in self reliance. That is why, it is expected of them to have created some agencies doing research. To nurture them, even if they have initial failures. Whether some one on the street cares for it or not, it is there job to do so.

And don't BS about 'snail paced' development, the economic policies the congress implemented were very much the policies that people wanted to see implemented. Ask the BJP why they were ready to lynch the congress on insurace, telecom and rupee devaluation?

That's both playing politics. Catering to vote banks instead of doing the right thing.

If the congress implemented some policies, I can assure you there was OVERWHELMING support for that to the extent that govts were elected on the mandate of nationalization only. COngress was not the only one- EVERYONE wanted it. Responsibility rests on all shoulders. If you wanna take credit away from the good work that they have done, it is just hypocrisy and lies.

The problem is not Nationalization. Problem is its implementation. Nationalized companies became just like other govt departments, lethargic and inept. Compare them to USSR and Chinese companies. I ask you again, why the technologies obtained and developed with Marut were let to go down the drain? Why did an opportunity like USSR collapse was missed, not utilized to develop indigenous R&D? Why is India still working on developing cryogenic engine 45 years after moon landing?

 

[Guynextdoor2]

It is never a problem that they fail at something, problem is, they didn't even attempted till very late. As I said, the green light for Agni series, for a few hundred kilometer was given in 70s. China, with comparable economy and population, started its ICBM development in 65. Chinese govt had a clear attitude towards self reliance, that led to in house development of almost everything.

Minimum expectation is that they would listen to right people, give them authority, and not interfere with them. That they would lead the country such that there is economic and social development, both of which are closely related to education, science and technology. Education helps in creating a competent workforce. Science and tech helps in self reliance. That is why, it is expected of them to have created some agencies doing research. To nurture them, even if they have initial failures. Whether some one on the street cares for it or not, it is there job to do so.



That's both playing politics. Catering to vote banks instead of doing the right thing.



The problem is not Nationalization. Problem is its implementation. Nationalized companies became just like other govt departments, lethargic and inept. Compare them to USSR and Chinese companies. I ask you again, why the technologies obtained and developed with Marut were let to go down the drain? Why did an opportunity like USSR collapse was missed, not utilized to develop indigenous R&D? Why is India still working on developing cryogenic engine 45 years after moon landing?

Again, you are just going on with your own higher middle class high talk. No One wanted a space program and no- there really are a 100 other ways to fruitfully spend the money. If the money has been spent into creating a great space agency- all credit to congress and their leadership.
Whether a policy is right or wrong- beyond a point you don't have a say. The people elected you to see those policies implemented- that's YOUR JOB. The reason why they are called 'politicians' is because they are expected to be good in politics. Basis historic experince, COngress convinced India into a U Turn- gradually and in increments. If you are banging hard on open economy today instead of govt interference- that too is the accomplishment of congress.

No one is going to ask you why Agni V succeded or not- no one wants to spend 10 billion to match china- that we don't do so but adquately achaieve what is needed is the government's job. And their approach has been bang on. We have made the progress to levels needed but our budget has never exceeded 2.5 percent.

 

[Kloitra]

Again, you are just going on with your own higher middle class high talk. No One wanted a space program and no- there really are a 100 other ways to fruitfully spend the money. If the money has been spent into creating a great space agency- all credit to congress and their leadership.
Whether a policy is right or wrong- beyond a point you don't have a say. The people elected you to see those policies implemented- that's YOUR JOB. The reason why they are called 'politicians' is because they are expected to be good in politics.

Your argument is: The govt went beyond its political need, and actually did some work in the interest of the country. We should commend it for that. Sorry, I don't agree. I would want my govt to 'always' work in the national interest, and expect it to 'mostly' work in national interest. Have a foresight, have proper implementation of policies. It is because people have far lower expectations, that India is full of slum-dogs instead of millionaires.

Basis historic experince, COngress convinced India into a U Turn- gradually and in increments. If you are banging hard on open economy today instead of govt interference- that too is the accomplishment of congress.

I cannot praise the govt to gradually rollback on the socialist policies that it itself brought. I cannot commend it that now I only have to bribe 10 people, instead of 50 in past. And the reason govt had to open the economy was that country went almost bankrupt.

No one is going to ask you why Agni V succeded or not- no one wants to spend 10 billion to match china- that we don't do so but adquately achaieve what is needed is the government's job. And their approach has been bang on. We have made the progress to levels needed but our budget has never exceeded 2.5 percent.

No, Indian progress is far behind what is required. For example, electronics is the need of the hour. What has govt done to introduce commercial chip manufacturing in India? Even something as basic and popular, such as mobile is imported from china. No self reliance. No foresight from the part of govt. What is the status of telecom industry in India?

The management in R&D agencies is the worst. Once in an Indian lab, it took me a week to get a job done, which takes less than an hour here. Half the employees are just pretending to work. Too much complacency. Those researchers who actually develop something needs to be acclaimed, that they achieved something even after facing so much adversity.

 

[surya kiran]

Hey einstein...GOI DOES NOT INCLUDE NDA- they lost elections remember? So they don't need to be consulted or made a part of anything at all. All that they're supposed to do is sip chai and bi@tch about the government- which is what they are doing.

GOI= congress coz majority of Indian history congress has been in power.

Aah, then by your logic, the Congress has no role to play in India being a nuclear power right? Since, it was the NDA which actually took the step? And the major infra development like building of highways in India (btw 50% of all roads built post 1970 were built during the 5 years of NDA), Congress is not responsible, correct? Also, the Congress is not responsible for power sector reforms and dismantling of the controlled pricing regime of petrol. Correct?

 

[surya kiran]

Again, you are just going on with your own higher middle class high talk. No One wanted a space program and no- there really are a 100 other ways to fruitfully spend the money. If the money has been spent into creating a great space agency- all credit to congress and their leadership.
Whether a policy is right or wrong- beyond a point you don't have a say. The people elected you to see those policies implemented- that's YOUR JOB. The reason why they are called 'politicians' is because they are expected to be good in politics. Basis historic experince, COngress convinced India into a U Turn- gradually and in increments. If you are banging hard on open economy today instead of govt interference- that too is the accomplishment of congress.

No one is going to ask you why Agni V succeded or not- no one wants to spend 10 billion to match china- that we don't do so but adquately achaieve what is needed is the government's job. And their approach has been bang on. We have made the progress to levels needed but our budget has never exceeded 2.5 percent.

Seriously??? The U turn did not happen gradually. It was forced. Man, your knowledge of history, political workings and common sense is abysmal to say the least.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Seriously??? The U turn did not happen gradually. It was forced. Man, your knowledge of history, political workings and common sense is abysmal to say the least.

No- the initial set of reforms were quite limited some immedeate steps to manage BOP crisis. over the next 8 years they began to open up-most important reforms of telecom and insurance and banking took almost 7 years after 1991 to achieve, and that too only partly. My knowledge if btter than yours.

 

[surya kiran]

No- the initial set of reforms were quite limited some immedeate steps to manage BOP crisis. over the next 8 years they began to open up-most important reforms of telecom and insurance and banking took almost 7 years after 1991 to achieve, and that too only partly. My knowledge if btter than yours.

Seriously? The BoP crisis forced things to be changed. What you are stating as reforms were a result of obligations to be fulfilled. Please, you have no idea what I do. So spare me the bull about comparative knowledge.

And you are again mistaken, because if you think reforms started in 1991. That itself shows me your knowledge levels on the topic. Like I said, don't dig into topics you don't understand. Stick to selling the Congress which you seem to be doing well.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Seriously? The BoP crisis forced things to be changed. What you are stating as reforms were a result of obligations to be fulfilled. Please, you have no idea what I do. So spare me the bull about comparative knowledge.

And you are again mistaken, because if you think reforms started in 1991. That itself shows me your knowledge levels on the topic. Like I said, don't dig into topics you don't understand. Stick to selling the Congress which you seem to be doing well.

No you don't know anything. Reforms done before 1991, especially when Rajiv Gandhi was there were very rudimentary in comparison to what was needed. BOP Crisis forced the U Turn, but the reason why called it gradual was because they didn't just leap in and do away with industrial licensing or FDI in banking, telecom & insurance- that process took many many years.

 

[surya kiran]

No you don't know anything. Reforms done before 1991, especially when Rajiv Gandhi was there were very rudimentary in comparison to what was needed. BOP Crisis forced the U Turn, but the reason why called it gradual was because they didn't just leap in and do away with industrial licensing or FDI in banking, telecom & insurance- that process took many many years.

Please read up on LTFP. The problem was recognised. And steps were being put in place. The BoP forced acceleration. As far as gradual? Do you mean pledging your gold reserves is gradual? No, its a drastic step. The reason they could not do away with industrial licensing was not because they wanted to do it gradually. But, because they had to put laws in place and pass things through Parliament. Do you have any idea what the IRDA was or what the NTPs were?

Dude, seriously. just stop. You have just agreed to my point that the reforms were forced. So just stop. You want to discuss this, start a different thread. And please do not assume that because this is a defence forum, nobody knows economics or has studied economic history or macroe/microconomic theories or growth/development models or econometrics or financial economics or monetary economics or international economics or economic modelling. Hope I made my point clear. you are way out of your depth here. Ok?