There is that mental gymnastics “Russian” AL-31.
Btw you sound like a child in the way you talk. Unhinged and smashing the keyboard.
Anything that can not be processed by your head automatically becomes "Mental Gymnastics"? Not very bright, are you?
Russian delivered AL-31 TOT is the same thing as Russian AL-31. I do not even know how mentally you can claim a win here. But you are an Iranian and quite stubborn so why am I not surprised.
Russian Supplied AL-31 =/= TOT'ed Iranian-made AL-31
TOTed products are never ever the same products. Their specs differ and get a local designation for the very same reason.
More examples of licensed/unlicensed TOT'ed/Copied Aviation Products:
MIG-21 =/= F-7 (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbojets)
SU-30M/SM/MKK =/= SU-30MKI (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents)
SU-27 =/= J-11 (Differences, Flight controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbofans)
SU-33 =/= J-15 (Differences: Avionics, Armanents, Turbofans)
F-5F =/= Kowsar (Differences: Body length, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbojets)
Lavi =/= J-10 (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbofans)
Kfir =/= Mirage V (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbojet)
Cheetah =/= Mirage (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents)
You were saying?
This was already talked about at the time and it is known as the heavy engine project(Heavy turbofan). A picture of Russian AL-31 literally with its name in the URL was used as a placeholder.
No, Manteghi showed AL-31 picture from a Russian source. He did not show any "URL" or said anything like "oh I am using a foreign engine to signify local development". You are putting your own words in Manteghi's mouth to defend a stupid point you made earlier.
It does not necessarily mean the next engine showed off is a local AL-31, but that is the class engine (in terms of power/capability) Iran is targeting.
Meaningless wordplay to deflect the fact that you have been proven totally wrong once again (long list).
Nowhere in the entire presentation Manteghi once said that this is Russian AL-31 and if I may quote you
"that is the class engine (in terms of power/capability) Iran is targeting".
Instead, he said we are going to make a local turbofan and the picture he showed was AL-31. This can only ... and only ... mean two things. Iranian larger turbofan is an AL-31 and it's either stolen or TOT'ed. Considering that Iran would not piss off Russia by theft of intellectual property, or copying their mainstream power, it can not be anything other than a TOT which I have been eyeing as a prospect for powering next-generation domestic fighter.
The timeline shown is in the format:
Year: Local product (derived from the foreign engine)
2001: Tolue mini-turbojet (TRI-60)
2006: Tolue-? mini-turbofan (R-95)
2014: Owj turbojet (J-85)
2020: Jahesh-700 Turbofan (FJ-33)
2026: Iranian larger Turbofan (Al-31)
You were implying that I was paddling the idea of using Russian AL-31 on domestic fighters, putting some effort to screenshot my posts from other threads yet nowhere I said Russian AL-31 on domestic fighters. Nowhere Manteghi said AL-31 he showed is Russian AL-31.
Life Lesson: Read before commenting.
I mentioned the heavy engine project earlier, you remember you made fun of me just a few posts above?
Heavy engine has nothing to do with “weight” as you incorrectly assumed. It had to do with power
what are you on about?
The point I was making is that Gripen-E/F will blind and smash most of the Flanker fleet yet it (Volvo RM12 Turbofans) is much below in "power" compared to SU-Flankers. Modern aviation does not revolve around "Heavy" vs "Light" it revolves around avionics, E-warfare, and missiles. SU-35S has a PESA radar, Khibiny ECM will not come, BVR will be R-77, yet it's a "powerful" craft.
Yes after Iran sued Russia in world court and secured a 3B dollar judgement vs the original $800M deal If Russia did not supply the system promptly. Russia caved since they didn’t want to pay the 3B fine.
Russia never officially sold this to Iran. Some sites mention it, yet in all my time I have never ONCE seen this system photographed in the 10 years or so it has been claimed Iran has it.
Cold war relic, which BTW Iran shortly after modified it by removing the export range restriction in the Russian algo software AND later even reverse engineered it (Dezful) with zero repercussions. So there goes another one of your baseless theories.
All illogical arguments, these systems are gaurding Iranian skies forming the layers in IADS, considering that IRIAF interception game has been weak for years. Remove S-300 PMU2, how many HIMAD batteries of Bavar-373 and Sevom Khordads have been deployed? yet you think it's all insignificant compared to some Turbofan TOT. We do not even know which level TOT it will be. May be some parts will come and the rest will be Iranian ones.
Another 1960’s system
Just before Russia abandoned Shafaq and giving Iran RD-33 for the project
You are wrong. Shafgah being a 4000 KG and 35 ft long AT was supposed to have Soyuz RD-2500 turbofan which is a non-afterburning variant of RD-33.
The supplied RD-33s were for MIG-29 Fleet which would not have been flying today without them. Iran does not rebuild the RD-33 the way it performs reincarnations on TF30 Turbofans. The same MIG-29 fleet was at one time the only BVR interceptor IRIAF had to gaurd cities and nuclear sites when F-14A fleet was barely ~8-10 FMC strong. Please tell me how this means less then some turbofan TOT?
Large fleets of medium-heavy transport Helis are insignificant for a geographically large military nation that needs relocation of stuff every day?? You are literally trolling now. If an airdefense, ELINT etc unit has to be shifted, how do you think that happens in a large country?
Makes IRIN submarines lethal otherwise, the fleet would be firing slow relic Torpedos.
......................
And offcourse to run away from defending your own stupidity you refused to even address Rezonans and Avtobaza ELINT which are elite-level developments in Iranian-IADS but offcourse some Turbofans will be HUGE in your world.
How can you be so bi polar?
You first sit and scream Russia doesn’t give away its top tech and that Russia would never give Iran its ECM systems with the SU-35.
Russia does not share the following in terms of combat aviation capabilities:
- Long-range BVR. It never gave R-33, R-37 to anyone.
- Its top-notch ECM like current Khibiny, 25 countries fly Flankers but how many operate this system? The day system is compromised, it will be for sale. Its how Rosoboronexport operates.
In the Iranian case it never even shared
- R-77 BVR, Iran has no lightweight ARH BVR for the MIG fleet
- MIG-29 Gardeniya ECM, Remora pods, IRIAF MIG fleet is defenseless
- KH-31 Supersonic attack missiles with SU-24 fleet, Iranian agents were arrested for smuggling it out of Ukraine.
Then you go bi-polar again sit and say look at all the tech they have given us you think them giving us AL 31 engine tech is a big deal?
Please enlighten us, which items in my list of Russian exports to Iran are related to Combat Aviation Capabilities? Please show missiles, ECM, Radars, jammers etc
Yes, I do think them giving us the engine ToT they refused to give China and India is a big deal. India spent a ton of money on the SU-57 in a joint venture and walked away empty handed.
Russia supplied RD-33 20 years ago to rogue Iran and still supplies RD-93 to Rogue Pakistan.
TOT may be a new thing but Iran and Russia are strategic allies now. It makes sense.
Ask yourself, when was the last time in past 20 years that nation received ToT of AL-31 level tech from another nation?
In the last 20 years how many times Russia went to an elongated war with NATO (directly/indirectly) where it has to have a strategic ally supply it loitering UAVS, UCAVS, Missiles?
Even Turkey for its TFX project is not getting license production of for its engines and they have been the Kings of getting ToT from other nations.
Turkey has never been a Russian client. Russian state-owned military complex's modus operandi is very different from private Western vendors.
How can you be absorb google info sources and yet be so naive when it comes to giving analysis. You really think AL-31 TOT a world class fighter jet engine is comparable to selling Iran some Cold War relics and a few helicopters and SU-25?
Manteghi showing AL-31 in his official presentation to state media is "google info" to you?
and btw Russian-Iranian dynamics have changed. They are fighting a war against NATO indirectly and are dependent upon Iran. IRIAF was dying in 2000s already with some 10-15 FMC F-14A on QRA. Why did not Russia supply Iran with SU-30, Yak-130, A-50, TOT for Turbofan back then? because they were not isolated the way they are now. Iranian AL-31 in 2027-28 if materializes will not be some groundbreaking thing considering Iran has already shown its own single crystal blade Turbofan. Do you think Russians being one of the most cunning ethnicities in the world can not see that Iran taking strides in STEM R&D will not be a client anymore for their obsolete (by then) product so it is better to make $ when they can?
Here is my own observation over the decades following the Iranian military relationship with Russia. They supply a product to Iran when Iran can make a comparable one at home. Bavar-373 = S-400 so S-300PMU2 came. Even S-400 may show up in Iran in future. AL-31 TOT is coming because people who can make single crystal Jahesh-700 Turbofan can make a bigger one in few years too. If Iranian ARH AIM-7 project yields something like AIM-120C to arm the fleet then even R-77M (for SU-57) will come to Iran.
I’m not trolling. You seem to think in your mind that F-5 with drop tanks and fully loaded armament is going to be at 1m2 RCS? In what world? That’s like saying a fully loaded F-35 still holds its estimated .01m2 RCS.
Show proof where did I say "F-5 with drop tanks and fully loaded armament is going to be at 1m2 RCS".
I merely said that.
- You were misquoting the article, nowhere the authors in the entire paper even remotely suggested that their simulated RCS = real-life RCS. I even told you Theoretical simulated values =/= Real life values until the equation becomes "Theoretically simulated values x Coefficient of correction = Real life values". Authors never claimed that their simulated the RCS of 15 m2 is real life for they are not stupid.
- N-156 airframe has given birth to F-5 family which never got shot at BVR ranges by missiles that took down F-4, F-14 at distances. The F-18 itself is recorded by USN to have a RCS of 1-3 m^2. I have given evidence to both statements.
Scouring Babak Tweets, military ir, and regurgitating information (that at times is informative I admit)?
And that matters how? None of us here work for the Iranian military to have "our own sources", the majority of us live in West. I have always stated clearly that I have zero inside scoop. Even the slides I make I mentioned sources (mostly IISS, Missile threat, Iran state media etc).
That is why I think you are young enthusiast. That is all.
I think you misquote people (and even research papers) and when confronted you dodge the questions. You have failed to answer a single question I have put forward to you (I have a list).
I can continue debating with you as much as you like “Dr” Meson. Just try not to go jackal and Hyde so much.
Till next time
Game on. Continue being massacred.
