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Anything that can not be processed by your head automatically becomes "Mental Gymnastics"? Not very bright, are you?

I like to think I’m somewhat bright Dr Meson

Nowhere in the entire presentation Manteghi once said that this is Russian AL-31 and if I may quote you "that is the class engine (in terms of power/capability) Iran is targeting".

I did not say that Manteghi said that, I said that he used a picture of AL-31 taken directly from web.

I said analysis by those here and on social media said that Iran is targeting an AL-31 class engine. I did not say Manteghi said that.

Instead, he said we are going to make a local turbofan and the picture he showed was AL-31. This can only ... and only ... mean two things. Iranian larger turbofan is an AL-31 and it's either stolen or TOT'ed.

Did he actually say we are going to make AL-31? Quote his exact words if you can.

If he did not then the picture is open to interpretation. How many times have we seen models of other foreign products throughout Iran’s armed forces?

Considering that Iran would not piss off Russia by theft of intellectual property, or copying their mainstream power, it can not be anything other than a TOT which I have been eyeing as a prospect for powering next-generation domestic fighter.

You cannot “steal” AL-31 like it’s a jewel from a museum. Even the Iranian who got caught trying to take F-35 engine tech out of US only had blueprints of the physical design. He did not have details on engine computer or the algorithm that powers the entire engine, which you can physically make a 1 for 1 copy of anything you want, but if you cannot match the coding and algorithms of the onboard computer then you won’t match performance or possibly even have the system work.

The timeline shown is in the format:
Year: Local product (derived from the foreign engine)
2001: Tolue mini-turbojet (TRI-60)
2006: Tolue-? mini-turbofan (R-95)
2014:
Owj turbojet (J-85)
2020:
Jahesh-700 Turbofan (FJ-33)
2026:
Iranian larger Turbofan (Al-31)

You were implying that I was paddling the idea of using Russian AL-31 on domestic fighters,

No I said you were paddling the idea of AL-31 on Kowsar (wether Russian or Iranian ToT was irrelevant) my comment still stands, you are naive if you think Russia is handing AL-31 physically or it’s ToT to Iran. Either one is highly unlikely.

I too have made the same assertions as you that ToT of AL-31 would be amazing (use the search function to see) this was before Manteghi’s presentation. But I admitted it was merely a wishlist item.


putting some effort to screenshot my posts from other threads yet nowhere I said Russian AL-31 on domestic fighters. Nowhere Manteghi said AL-31 he showed is Russian AL-31.

I will repeat again, Wether it’s Russian supplied AL-31 or Russian supplied ToT of AL-31 Iranian variant is the same when I made the comment. I was not claiming you said only Russian engines. I said both probabilities are unlikely. The latter (ToT) is even more unlikely.

All illogical arguments, these systems are gaurding Iranian skies forming the layers in IADS, considering that IRIAF interception game has been weak for years. Remove S-300 PMU2, how many HIMAD batteries of Bavar-373 and Sevom Khordads have been deployed? yet you think it's all insignificant compared to some Turbofan TOT. We do not even know which level TOT it will be. May be some parts will come and the rest will be Iranian ones.

I ask you again, you claim that Pantsir was delivered to Iran. It has not. Show me proof. Show me a single picture in last 10 years of Iranian Pantsir at a parade, war game, etc.

It doesn’t exist! Western sources claim Iran bought Pantsir systems in 2012! How can a system be missing for 10 years? Because they confused our purchase with Syria!

And offcourse to run away from defending your own stupidity you refused to even address Rezonans and Avtobaza ELINT which are elite-level developments in Iranian-IADS but offcourse some Turbofans will be HUGE in your world.

“some turbofan”. You are talking about THE best Russian engine produced in last 20 years. Only engine greater is AL-41 found in SU-57.

No country gives away its prized jet engine tech to anyone. Period. Comparing it to OTH radar or selling an ECW jammer is not remotely the same thing. Why is this shocking to you?

I asked you for proof of this occurring in last 20 years and you came back with zero results and just more opinions on relations of Iran-Russia.

China still does not have AL-31 tech neither does India. Both have much more significant arms relations with Russia than Iran does. Both would love it.

So why is Iran different? Because we sold them some drones? Why? India is buying boatloads of their oil and so is China, both are assisting Russia War machine in different ways.

Russia does not share the following in terms of combat aviation capabilities:

- Long-range BVR. It never gave R-33, R-37 to anyone.
- Its top-notch ECM like current Khibiny, 25 countries fly Flankers but how many operate this system? The day system is compromised, it will be for sale. Its how Rosoboronexport operates.

It never shares its premier engine tech with anyone either. Can you show an example it has? I’m still waiting. So why doesn’t this get added to your list? Because of Ukraine war? Come on

Russia supplied RD-33 20 years ago to rogue Iran and still supplies RD-93 to Rogue Pakistan.

It knows Iran couldn’t reverse engineer it. Neither can Pakistan. 20 years later, no Iranian RD-33. Would have made more sense to reverse engineer a RD-33 than building Owj.

TOT may be a new thing but Iran and Russia are strategic allies now. It makes sense.

This is an opinion. We are “strategic allies”? Is that why Russia offered Turkey a NATO country S-400 and delivered it promptly? While we waited what 10 years to see our S-300 and had to go to court to get it?

Is that why Russia openly said it would sell SU-57 to Turkey and help on its TFX program when it doesn’t even acknowledge the sale of SU-35 to Iran? Only Iranian officials have mentioned it.

We are far from strategic allies. And IF we are strategic Allies that can get their best engine tech handed over then we can get their ECM, air defense systems, and best A2A missiles as well. It’s not a one or another type logic game you get to play by saying times have changed, but only for this product lol.

In the last 20 years how many times Russia went to an elongated war with NATO (directly/indirectly) where it has to have a strategic ally supply it loitering UAVS, UCAVS, Missiles?

Turkey, NATO member with US nukes on its soil, has killed Russian soldiers (indirectly and directly) and gets offered the latest in Russian weaponry. Your logic doesn’t hold.

Even IRIAF official poured cold water on SU-35 just recently.

So your analysis is just an opinion. You are inferring that Russia’s desperation for arms and weapons means it’s a sign of strategic shift and we will get ToT on SU-35. That’s a huge leap in logic. One that everyone here is waiting to see the results of.

Israel also sold Iran weapons during Iran-Iraq war and US supplied Iran weapons. Does that mean there was a strategic shift in relations with those countries? No of course not. Countries by weapons from anyone that sells during war. War is business.

Turkey has never been a Russian client. Russian state-owned military complex's modus operandi is very different from private Western vendors.

It operates S-400, as a major NATO member, a system not in Iranian possession.

So what do you define as “never been a Russian client”?

Manteghi showing AL-31 in his official presentation to state media is "google info" to you?

Manteghi going to Google and copy and pasting a literal picture of Russian AL-31 and throwing it on his slide is “google info”.

and btw Russian-Iranian dynamics have changed. They are fighting a war against NATO indirectly and are dependent upon Iran. IRIAF was dying in 2000s already with some 10-15 FMC F-14A on QRA.

We are still waiting for results of this “change”. First everyone said the arms ban lift would bring “change” then we got zero weapons during that time, despite our Chief of Staff going over there and saying we signed “deals”.

Now we all hope (including me btw) us selling them some drones and ammo would bring “change”. This is all hope at this point. It’s not lack of trying on Iran’s part. Russia has yet to reciprocate.

Meanwhile if Turkey asked Russia for Su-57 the production lines would be opened up.

Why did not Russia supply Iran with SU-30, Yak-130, A-50, TOT for Turbofan back then? because they were not isolated the way they are now.

And where is proof of what we got? It’s been 1.5 years since the war started and they “isolation”. Meanwhile we are reportedly agreeing with US to not sell them BMs. Is that something a strategic ally would do?

Iranian AL-31 in 2027-28 if materializes will not be some groundbreaking thing considering Iran has already shown its own single crystal blade Turbofan. Do you think Russians being one of the most cunning ethnicities in the world can not see that Iran taking strides in STEM R&D will not be a client anymore for their obsolete (by then) product so it is better to make $ when they can?

If jet engine tech is not a premier tech then why did it take so long for China to build a rival class engine and get it working? A country that has magnitudes higher the industrial/scientific base and funding than Iran.

How many countries in the world can serial mass produce reliable high performance fighter jet engines from scratch? You can probably count on one hand.


AL-31 TOT is coming because people who can make single crystal Jahesh-700 Turbofan can make a bigger one in few years too.

Making one J-700 is not the same as serial mass production. Serial mass production at a consistent performance and economic cost is what matters. Look how long it took China to fix the performance issues in its various WS engines. Yet they are still using AL-31’s and were installing them in J-20’s until Recently.

Iran had to pivot from soumar because the engine was too expensive and matching Russian performance was not worth it.

So again, since J-700 has been revealed how many have we seen produced? What are its performance characteristics? What are its problems? What is it costs? What platform uses it in large number?

It could take Iran 10 years to mass produce J-700 reliably and cost effectively. Or it could take 2 years. We don’t know. We are just speculating.

For example any country can unveil a missile, but how many of them can build at the performance level and consistency and cost as Iran can? If Saudi Arabia or Turkey tommorrow unveiled one BM in the Emad class would we say that they can now build 1000s at the same cost/performance level like Iran can? Of course not. It might take them 20 years to reach us.

Show proof where did I say "F-5 with drop tanks and fully loaded armament is going to be at 1m2 RCS".

So then your “analysis” that F-5 has a 1m2 cross section is irrelevant since it will never be flying “clean”.

So what is your estimation of RCS of F-5 with drop tanks and armaments? Frontal? Side? Worst case? Best case?
- You were misquoting the article, nowhere the authors in the entire paper even remotely suggested that their simulated RCS = real-life RCS. I even told you Theoretical simulated values =/= Real life values until the equation becomes "Theoretically simulated values x Coefficient of correction = Real life values". Authors never claimed that their simulated the RCS of 15 m2 is real life for they are not stupid.

And you have yet to present a counter claim of what F-5’s RCS is from different angles and loaded. You have claimed frontal 1m2 clean (no tanks no armament). Which if correct is irrelevant since the F-5 will neither be frontal attacking at all times nor it will be clean.

- N-156 airframe has given birth to F-5 family which never got shot at BVR ranges by missiles that took down F-4, F-14 at distances. The F-18 itself is recorded by USN to have a RCS of 1-3 m^2. I have given evidence to both statements.

F-18 is quoted clean. Fully loaded, care to guess what the RCS is? You are the master at google. Go and see.

When was the last time US airforce fought a near peer adversary in field of air defense?

Even Syria managed to hit a Israeli F-16 (masters of ECW) with a freaking S-200.

And that matters how? None of us here work for the Iranian military to have "our own sources", the majority of us live in West. I have always stated clearly that I have zero inside scoop. Even the slides I make I mentioned sources (mostly IISS, Missile threat, Iran state media etc).

So you have no aerospace or mechanical engineering background like some other users on here had/have, correct?

So your inference of feasibility of certain projects is merely conjecture and opinion just like mine. Hence why I said you are military enthusiast.

Game on. Continue being massacred.

:coffee:
 
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An interesting image of Chinese PL-10 WVR in DRPK. PL-10 ASR is a HMD-slaved IRIS-T, AIM-9X equivalent with no escape zone of 20 KM, designed for J-20. Which aircraft in DPRK can use it? Not the MIG-29 so some people are saying it's going to be J-10C (despite Arms Embargo)

FOTWQKiWUAQQmxg
Or those are not Chinese missiles, but North Korean versions that may be suitable for use in combat aircraft currently in use in North Korea.
It is a fact that the Koreans know the Mig-29 in depth, having made/assembled it directly, and have also upgraded it.
But those missiles could also be intended for the aircraft indicated here with the red arrow identified at an airport in North Korea.
NK-2.png

OK, many have referred to it in many ways:
1) Wood/plywood scale model
2) a new drone
3) a new advanced training aircraft
4) a new single-engine light combat aircraft.

However it has much smaller dimensions than the Mig-29 that is present in the image.
here is my elaboration of how the drone and piloted aircraft versions could be.
ipotesi (1).jpg
 
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Russians are pathetic.
They afraid if they sell weapon to Iran, west gets angry
thats not the case , the probem is they don't see iran as partner they see iran as a competitor that they benefit if they ally themselves with right now so remove some pressure on themselves while confronting their bigger foe
 
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Does anyone consider that may be it is Iran that does not want to buy aircraft from Russia (yes IRIAF wants but Leadership does not)..what Iran wants from Russia can not be sold to Iran due to its high end russian tech and Iran is advanced enough to figure out how it is done which is not the case with Saudi or UAE or even Turkey..so there you are ..pitfalls of being advanced enough but technology poor..China was a good example so Russians are not going to repeat the same mistake they did with China.

I like to see partnerships in projects with Russia meaning put your money and scientists on the table and share the development risks..

Russian new space station is a great place to start..
 
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Does anyone consider that may be it is Iran that does not want to buy aircraft from Russia (yes IRIAF wants but Leadership does not)..what Iran wants from Russia can not be sold to Iran due to its high end russian tech and Iran is advanced enough to figure out how it is done which is not the case with Saudi or UAE or even Turkey..so there you are ..pitfalls of being advanced enough but technology poor..China was a good example so Russians are not going to repeat the same mistake they did with China.

I like to see partnerships in projects with Russia meaning put your money and scientists on the table and share the development risks..

Russian new space station is a great place to start..

Likely, very likely.

Problem is Iran neds an air force, Iran must be capable to make sorties and acomplish some missions with a considerable force. It s time not only of deterrence,Iran msut think in projection of forces, an air force is an important branch for this.

Iran military doctrine must change, to be more actionable in interest of the region and of course Iran. Iran cannot overlook air force and has a problem of numbers and quality of their warplanes. Iran must work on this.

I would wish Iran had the russian air force technologies and not Russia, Russia is not a resolute actor as Iran is, power is better in Iran hands, hope this things are fixed and military power comes to Iran.
 
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An interesting image of Chinese PL-10 WVR in DRPK. PL-10 ASR is a HMD-slaved IRIS-T, AIM-9X equivalent with no escape zone of 20 KM, designed for J-20. Which aircraft in DPRK can use it? Not the MIG-29 so some people are saying it's going to be J-10C (despite Arms Embargo)

FOTWQKiWUAQQmxg
Your assertion is only possible by someone uneducated on the subject.
You don't know anything on AAMs of PRC and DPRK yet make such assertion that is factually incorrect.
 
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I have one thing to say through this delirious debate:

Powerful and efficient modernized J79 copy

Let's wait for the continuation of the Iranian announcements which will be very interesting
 
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I have one thing to say through this delirious debate:

Powerful and efficient modernized J79 copy

Let's wait for the continuation of the Iranian announcements which will be very interesting

Hope you are right, you always a positive opinion about Iranian progress in air force; some people here are demoralized because the lack of annuncements.

I share with you the fact Iran necesarily is working in something, i really believe in qaher 313 project, but dates must be stated...

You must understand their position.
 
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Does anyone consider that may be it is Iran that does not want to buy aircraft from Russia (yes IRIAF wants but Leadership does not)..what Iran wants from Russia can not be sold to Iran due to its high end russian tech and Iran is advanced enough to figure out how it is done which is not the case with Saudi or UAE or even Turkey..so there you are ..pitfalls of being advanced enough but technology poor..China was a good example so Russians are not going to repeat the same mistake they did with China.

I like to see partnerships in projects with Russia meaning put your money and scientists on the table and share the development risks..

Russian new space station is a great place to start..

I honestly dont think that the iranian government would be okay with the iriaf spending the not inconsiderable sums to construct an underground facility that would need to be purpose built to house the su-35 fleet if it was not very confident of ultimately receiving them.
Its very possible that the delays are due to the fact that the facility to house them,the second part of the new underground airbase,is still undergoing construction and simply isnt ready for them yet.
Not to mention theres the myriad of other details that would need to be worked out,training of pilots and ground support personnel,provision of spares,weapons,aftermarket support and back-up.Plus of course wanting to avoid some of the...um..."problems" that cropped up with previous aircraft supplied by the russians [the su24 being a rather infamous example] .
Sadly it doesnt help matters that the current head of the iriaf appears to be a literal living example of that old mark twain quote,that "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt".:tsk:
 
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Or those are not Chinese missiles, but North Korean versions that may be suitable for use in combat aircraft currently in use in North Korea.
It is a fact that the Koreans know the Mig-29 in depth, having made/assembled it directly, and have also upgraded it.
But those missiles could also be intended for the aircraft indicated here with the red arrow identified at an airport in North Korea.
View attachment 934925
OK, many have referred to it in many ways:
1) Wood/plywood scale model
2) a new drone
3) a new advanced training aircraft
4) a new single-engine light combat aircraft.

However it has much smaller dimensions than the Mig-29 that is present in the image.
here is my elaboration of how the drone and piloted aircraft versions could be.
View attachment 934926

I had seen the picture, my hypothesis was that these are all models including the SU-25 as some of them have lesser angles between the wings and the fuselage compared to the actual Frogfoot.

Also, the newer aircraft seemed like a scaled-down version of MIG-23ML which DRPK operates.

This could very well be a Yasin like AT which DPRK can produce. They have a proper local RD-9 Turbojet production which can generate a wet thrust of 8500 lbfs. Two such engines on a 4000 KG light fighter mean a rather powerful aircraft.
 
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Does anyone consider that may be it is Iran that does not want to buy aircraft from Russia (yes IRIAF wants but Leadership does not)..what Iran wants from Russia can not be sold to Iran due to its high end russian tech and Iran is advanced enough to figure out how it is done which is not the case with Saudi or UAE or even Turkey..so there you are ..pitfalls of being advanced enough but technology poor..China was a good example so Russians are not going to repeat the same mistake they did with China.

I like to see partnerships in projects with Russia meaning put your money and scientists on the table and share the development risks..

Russian new space station is a great place to start..

Tom Cooper says the same thing. He rather recently commented on the SU-35S + YAK-130 speculation that the Iranian regular military procurement system is too complicated where there are lobby groups and nobody can make totally independent decisions without taking into consideration the will of certain power groups within the system.

I honestly dont think that the iranian government would be okay with the iriaf spending the not inconsiderable sums to construct an underground facility that would need to be purpose built to house the su-35 fleet if it was not very confident of ultimately receiving them.
Its very possible that the delays are due to the fact that the facility to house them,the second part of the new underground airbase,is still undergoing construction and simply isnt ready for them yet.
Not to mention theres the myriad of other details that would need to be worked out,training of pilots and ground support personnel,provision of spares,weapons,aftermarket support and back-up.Plus of course wanting to avoid some of the...um..."problems" that cropped up with previous aircraft supplied by the russians [the su24 being a rather infamous example] .
Sadly it doesnt help matters that the current head of the iriaf appears to be a literal living example of that old mark twain quote,that "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt".:tsk:

The poster in the Oghab-44 base shows SU-35S in the middle with Kowsar and F-4E Dowran on the sides.

16vid-vi-iranairbase-duo1-articleLarge.png


14011118000724638113782834933764_36873_PhotoT-1024x640.jpg
 
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Some published updates by BT

- F-14AM upgradation has been stopped due to $$$ cuts and there are just a few QRA ones left. This is the reason behind their absence in the parade this year. The fleet will probably be grounded by mid-2024 and replaced by an incoming batch of initial 24 x SU-35S and then a further 40 (64 Total). F-14AM conversion and arming them with Fakour-90 takes up something like 4-5 Million USD so keeping them airworthy is not viable when a large fleet of SU-35S will take up the long-range interceptor role.

- Fakour-90 with ARH seekers is called Maghsood and has a range of 180 KM. 100 x SARH Fakour-90 had already been delivered by Babaei Missile Industries to IRIAF. If F-14 fleet is replaced by SU-35S then the utility of Fakour-90 and Maghsood will be gone too since no other aircraft can carry such heavy missiles. The F-4E/D Dowran can technically track and launch these missiles but they can barely pull ~3 G's with Fakour-90.

- MIG-29 SMT and SU-24MK2 upgradation will happen as well. The deal was signed in late 2021 by MODAFL and Russian Companies in Moscow. Some ~23 x MIG-29 SMT strong fleet of Zhuk-ME + R-77ER + HMD slaved R-73M/R-74 armed interceptor force will be prepared.

- One F-5F is being used for tesing local e-warfare packages. This ECM pod is completely new and not related to previously shown An/APQ-95 ECM.

1687137496274.jpeg

1687137603676.jpeg


1687137483751.png
 
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Some published updates by BT

- F-14AM upgradation has been stopped due to $$$ cuts and there are just a few QRA ones left. This is the reason behind their absence in the parade this year. The fleet will probably be grounded by mid-2024 and replaced by an incoming batch of initial 24 x SU-35S and then a further 40 (64 Total). F-14AM conversion and arming them with Fakour-90 takes up something like 4-5 Million USD so keeping them airworthy is not viable when a large fleet of SU-35S will take up the long-range interceptor role.

- Fakour-90 with ARH seekers is called Maghsood and has a range of 180 KM. 100 x SARH Fakour-90 had already been delivered by Babaei Missile Industries to IRIAF. If F-14 fleet is replaced by SU-35S then the utility of Fakour-90 and Maghsood will be gone too since no other aircraft can carry such heavy missiles. The F-4E/D Dowran can technically track and launch these missiles but they can barely pull ~3 G's with Fakour-90.

- MIG-29 SMT and SU-24MK2 upgradation will happen as well. The deal was signed in late 2021 by MODAFL and Russian Companies in Moscow. Some ~23 x MIG-29 SMT strong fleet of Zhuk-ME + R-77ER + HMD slaved R-73M/R-74 armed interceptor force will be prepared.
By "BT" you mean Babak Taghvaee the twitter account?

This account posts misinformation and non-sourced claims non stop, he was claiming months ago during the riots that IRGCAF was preparing its Su-22 to bomb Balochistan people "because they were rioting" and also using CHs "to hide the genocide Iran is doing" and drop chemical barrels on rioters

And his uncountable number of fake news and speculations that led always to nowhere

Correct me if i'm wrong about "BT" meaning
 
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By "BT" you mean Babak Taghvaee the twitter account?

This account posts misinformation and non-sourced claims non stop, he was claiming months ago during the riots that IRGCAF was preparing its Su-22 to bomb Balochistan people "because they were rioting" and also using CHs "to hide the genocide Iran is doing" and drop chemical barrels on rioters

And his uncountable number of fake news and speculations that led always to nowhere

Correct me if i'm wrong about "BT" meaning

BT has a soft spot for IRIAF, he doesn’t treat them the same as the rest of the Iranian armed forces. Likely due to the Shah era roots of the force. So usually will be very positive on IRIAF and negative on anything tied to IRGC.

I can’t speak on the validity of his IRIAF claims as he is all over the place with his claims overall.
 
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.........................

An interesting image of Chinese PL-10 WVR in DRPK. PL-10 ASR is a HMD-slaved IRIS-T, AIM-9X equivalent with no escape zone of 20 KM, designed for J-20. Which aircraft in DPRK can use it? Not the MIG-29 so some people are saying it's going to be J-10C (despite Arms Embargo)

FOTWQKiWUAQQmxg
This is not a pl-10
Abrams_1_lrg.jpg

This is a pl-10
pl10e_4.jpg

It reminds me a little of the dprks [and the roks] iskander missile look a likes,ultimately the closer one looked,the more differences one saw.
 
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