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There is a project Erfanian (named after F-7N pilot Shahid Erfanian) to build FTC-2000G equivalent in Iran with double delta wings, sideway air intakes, and Kowsar's avionics (radar, ECM etc).

My own take: It will be J-7N fleet rebuilt with new cockpits, radomes, and double-delta wings, with side-ways air-intakes like JL-9. It will be like Kfir or Saegheh I/II program. In total IRIAF has some ~44 x F-7 airframes. What purpose they will serve is beyond me. Waste of $$.

Details by BT

https://www.key.aero/article/history-chengdu-f-7n-iranian-service
On March 13, 2019 looking at the blueprints of a model posted by the user Skyshadows, the image of the user Sineva and the new wings that actually look like those of the F-7PG and the JL-9, I had speculated that there actually were some technical studies for an update and modification of the F-7.
Today with the information quoted above it seems that this modification was or is a real project.
Always curious to see how such a version could look, I made this photoshop that I propose again as it is no longer visible in my post of March 13, 2019
rwSrw6Q.jpg
 
At this moment, i am only interested when the SU-35 are going to take land in Iran. Iran must pressure Russia., warplanes are like cars they lost value with the time.

No one knows. It seemed like a decent probability, until the head of IRIAF came out and said that’s up to leadership and not us. We don’t make those decisions.

If this “mini deal” with US is true, then Iran will no longer supply BMs to Russia. That could sour any arms transfers.

This is just speculation, but It could be Russia wanted more advanced weaponry (BMs/CMs/Etc) from Iran in order to give SU-35. But Iran balked. Russian negotiations with Iran are rarely ever “fair” compared to what Russia has offered Turkey.

Russia has even offered SU-57 to Turkey! Can you believe it? Look at what they offer a NATO country over Iran?

Not only that, they even offered their technical assistance on the Turkish domestic TFX program!

Meanwhile Iran has to fight tooth and nail to get any sort of modern weaponry from Russia.

1686949607503.jpeg

Putin and Erdogan visiting an SU-57

 
No one knows. It seemed like a decent probability, until the head of IRIAF came out and said that’s up to leadership and not us. We don’t make those decisions.

If this “mini deal” with US is true, then Iran will no longer supply BMs to Russia. That could sour any arms transfers.

This is just speculation, but It could be Russia wanted more advanced weaponry (BMs/CMs/Etc) from Iran in order to give SU-35. But Iran balked. Russian negotiations with Iran are rarely ever “fair” compared to what Russia has offered Turkey.

Russia has even offered SU-57 to Turkey! Can you believe it? Look at what they offer a NATO country over Iran?

Not only that, they even offered their technical assistance on the Turkish domestic TFX program!

Meanwhile Iran has to fight tooth and nail to get any sort of modern weaponry from Russia.

View attachment 934734
Putin and Erdogan visiting an SU-57



Russians must think Iranians are like Syrian diplomats, they will accept anything for nuts.

Iran must make clear Russia ties must be balanced in a win win approach. Iran must not share influence in south west asia with Russia for free.
 
Russia even sold S-400s to hostile Turkey.
Russia has sold Pantsir-S1 to Ethiopia, Algeria, Serbia, Myanmar, and even to Libyan rebels.
But it sells only very old equipment to Iran.
One wonders what kind of deal Russia has made with Shahed-136.
 
Russia even sold S-400s to hostile Turkey.
Russia has sold Pantsir-S1 to Ethiopia, Algeria, Serbia, Myanmar, and even to Libyan rebels.
But it sells only very old equipment to Iran.
One wonders what kind of deal Russia has made with Shahed-136.
S-400 for Algeria as well
+ Su-30SM to Algeria and a lot of other countries
+ and S-350 to Algeria, BPMT order to Algeria
And a lot of other countries
 
Russia even sold S-400s to hostile Turkey.
Russia has sold Pantsir-S1 to Ethiopia, Algeria, Serbia, Myanmar, and even to Libyan rebels.
But it sells only very old equipment to Iran.
One wonders what kind of deal Russia has made with Shahed-136.
Russians are pathetic.
They afraid if they sell weapon to Iran, west gets angry
 
They see Iran as potential thread which can invade them from south and cut their land into two half ...

They never want to arms Iran ....
China and turkey are more dangerous than iran for russia but russians sell them every weapons they wanted.
 
China and turkey are more dangerous than iran for russia but russians sell them every weapons they wanted.
They are maybe planning for something after the war to get back ties with the west to remove sanctions when Evangelical Trump copy will be US president

Or afraid of fighter jets landing in Ukraine which i doubt

The first one is the more plausible answer, they want to reconciliate with the US to remove all their sanctions with EU assistance that will tell they need Russian gas

We should take the place of Russia to have a possible answer of why they are acting in weird manner at such a time where the US is sanctioning them and breaking ties

- Do Russia have embassies in Canada, UK, USA? If one of them has, the answer is they all have interests with Russia after the war, Ukraine will have +100bn of dollars of debt to half of the planet no matter what and Zelensky will have a hard time to sleep in Ukraine, what they are operating is actually free. Also AWACS sorties and satellites, intelligence, aren't free. This will easily surpass 150bn of debt from Ukraine, and EU will renew ties with Russia, buying Russian oil and gas while taking the cash from war torn Ukraine

Western methods and their culture of money never change
 
They are maybe planning for something after the war to get back ties with the west to remove sanctions when Evangelical Trump copy will be US president

Or afraid of fighter jets landing in Ukraine which i doubt

The first one is the more plausible answer, they want to reconciliate with the US to remove all their sanctions with EU assistance that will tell they need Russian gas

We should take the place of Russia to have a possible answer of why they are acting in weird manner at such a time where the US is sanctioning them and breaking ties

- Do Russia have embassies in Canada, UK, USA? If one of them has, the answer is they all have interests with Russia after the war, Ukraine will have +100bn of dollars of debt to half of the planet no matter what and Zelensky will have a hard time to sleep in Ukraine, what they are operating is actually free. Also AWACS sorties and satellites, intelligence, aren't free. This will easily surpass 150bn of debt from Ukraine, and EU will renew ties with Russia, buying Russian oil and gas while taking the cash from war torn Ukraine

Western methods and their culture of money never change

Sanctions on Russia will increase hard, will sky rocket, Russia is in a heavy delusion, west does not want Russia russian, really they don t understand.

There is not possibility of reconciliation. Russia is delusional.

And about F-16, if they really worries for F-16, Russia is in a real problem.
 
There is that mental gymnastics “Russian” AL-31. :coffee: Btw you sound like a child in the way you talk. Unhinged and smashing the keyboard.

Anything that can not be processed by your head automatically becomes "Mental Gymnastics"? Not very bright, are you?

Russian delivered AL-31 TOT is the same thing as Russian AL-31. I do not even know how mentally you can claim a win here. But you are an Iranian and quite stubborn so why am I not surprised.

Russian Supplied AL-31 =/= TOT'ed Iranian-made AL-31

TOTed products are never ever the same products. Their specs differ and get a local designation for the very same reason.

More examples of licensed/unlicensed TOT'ed/Copied Aviation Products:

MIG-21 =/= F-7 (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbojets)
SU-30M/SM/MKK =/= SU-30MKI (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents)
SU-27 =/= J-11 (Differences, Flight controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbofans)
SU-33 =/= J-15 (Differences: Avionics, Armanents, Turbofans)
F-5F =/= Kowsar (Differences: Body length, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbojets)
Lavi =/= J-10 (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbofans)
Kfir =/= Mirage V (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents, Turbojet)
Cheetah =/= Mirage (Differences: Aerodynamics, Controls, Avionics, Armanents)

You were saying?

This was already talked about at the time and it is known as the heavy engine project(Heavy turbofan). A picture of Russian AL-31 literally with its name in the URL was used as a placeholder.

No, Manteghi showed AL-31 picture from a Russian source. He did not show any "URL" or said anything like "oh I am using a foreign engine to signify local development". You are putting your own words in Manteghi's mouth to defend a stupid point you made earlier.

It does not necessarily mean the next engine showed off is a local AL-31, but that is the class engine (in terms of power/capability) Iran is targeting.

Meaningless wordplay to deflect the fact that you have been proven totally wrong once again (long list).

Nowhere in the entire presentation Manteghi once said that this is Russian AL-31 and if I may quote you "that is the class engine (in terms of power/capability) Iran is targeting".

Instead, he said we are going to make a local turbofan and the picture he showed was AL-31. This can only ... and only ... mean two things. Iranian larger turbofan is an AL-31 and it's either stolen or TOT'ed. Considering that Iran would not piss off Russia by theft of intellectual property, or copying their mainstream power, it can not be anything other than a TOT which I have been eyeing as a prospect for powering next-generation domestic fighter.

The timeline shown is in the format:
Year: Local product (derived from the foreign engine)
2001: Tolue mini-turbojet (TRI-60)
2006: Tolue-? mini-turbofan (R-95)
2014:
Owj turbojet (J-85)
2020:
Jahesh-700 Turbofan (FJ-33)
2026:
Iranian larger Turbofan (Al-31)

You were implying that I was paddling the idea of using Russian AL-31 on domestic fighters, putting some effort to screenshot my posts from other threads yet nowhere I said Russian AL-31 on domestic fighters. Nowhere Manteghi said AL-31 he showed is Russian AL-31.

Life Lesson: Read before commenting.

I mentioned the heavy engine project earlier, you remember you made fun of me just a few posts above?

Heavy engine has nothing to do with “weight” as you incorrectly assumed. It had to do with power

what are you on about?

The point I was making is that Gripen-E/F will blind and smash most of the Flanker fleet yet it (Volvo RM12 Turbofans) is much below in "power" compared to SU-Flankers. Modern aviation does not revolve around "Heavy" vs "Light" it revolves around avionics, E-warfare, and missiles. SU-35S has a PESA radar, Khibiny ECM will not come, BVR will be R-77, yet it's a "powerful" craft.

Yes after Iran sued Russia in world court and secured a 3B dollar judgement vs the original $800M deal If Russia did not supply the system promptly. Russia caved since they didn’t want to pay the 3B fine.

Russia never officially sold this to Iran. Some sites mention it, yet in all my time I have never ONCE seen this system photographed in the 10 years or so it has been claimed Iran has it.

Cold war relic, which BTW Iran shortly after modified it by removing the export range restriction in the Russian algo software AND later even reverse engineered it (Dezful) with zero repercussions. So there goes another one of your baseless theories.

All illogical arguments, these systems are gaurding Iranian skies forming the layers in IADS, considering that IRIAF interception game has been weak for years. Remove S-300 PMU2, how many HIMAD batteries of Bavar-373 and Sevom Khordads have been deployed? yet you think it's all insignificant compared to some Turbofan TOT. We do not even know which level TOT it will be. May be some parts will come and the rest will be Iranian ones.

Another 1960’s system

Just before Russia abandoned Shafaq and giving Iran RD-33 for the project

You are wrong. Shafgah being a 4000 KG and 35 ft long AT was supposed to have Soyuz RD-2500 turbofan which is a non-afterburning variant of RD-33.

The supplied RD-33s were for MIG-29 Fleet which would not have been flying today without them. Iran does not rebuild the RD-33 the way it performs reincarnations on TF30 Turbofans. The same MIG-29 fleet was at one time the only BVR interceptor IRIAF had to gaurd cities and nuclear sites when F-14A fleet was barely ~8-10 FMC strong. Please tell me how this means less then some turbofan TOT?

More old systems

Large fleets of medium-heavy transport Helis are insignificant for a geographically large military nation that needs relocation of stuff every day?? You are literally trolling now. If an airdefense, ELINT etc unit has to be shifted, how do you think that happens in a large country?

1970’s torpedo

Makes IRIN submarines lethal otherwise, the fleet would be firing slow relic Torpedos.

......................

And offcourse to run away from defending your own stupidity you refused to even address Rezonans and Avtobaza ELINT which are elite-level developments in Iranian-IADS but offcourse some Turbofans will be HUGE in your world.

How can you be so bi polar?

You first sit and scream Russia doesn’t give away its top tech and that Russia would never give Iran its ECM systems with the SU-35.

Russia does not share the following in terms of combat aviation capabilities:

- Long-range BVR. It never gave R-33, R-37 to anyone.
- Its top-notch ECM like current Khibiny, 25 countries fly Flankers but how many operate this system? The day system is compromised, it will be for sale. Its how Rosoboronexport operates.

In the Iranian case it never even shared

- R-77 BVR, Iran has no lightweight ARH BVR for the MIG fleet
- MIG-29 Gardeniya ECM, Remora pods, IRIAF MIG fleet is defenseless
- KH-31 Supersonic attack missiles with SU-24 fleet, Iranian agents were arrested for smuggling it out of Ukraine.

Then you go bi-polar again sit and say look at all the tech they have given us you think them giving us AL 31 engine tech is a big deal?

Please enlighten us, which items in my list of Russian exports to Iran are related to Combat Aviation Capabilities? Please show missiles, ECM, Radars, jammers etc

Yes, I do think them giving us the engine ToT they refused to give China and India is a big deal. India spent a ton of money on the SU-57 in a joint venture and walked away empty handed.

Russia supplied RD-33 20 years ago to rogue Iran and still supplies RD-93 to Rogue Pakistan.

TOT may be a new thing but Iran and Russia are strategic allies now. It makes sense.

Ask yourself, when was the last time in past 20 years that nation received ToT of AL-31 level tech from another nation?

In the last 20 years how many times Russia went to an elongated war with NATO (directly/indirectly) where it has to have a strategic ally supply it loitering UAVS, UCAVS, Missiles?

Even Turkey for its TFX project is not getting license production of for its engines and they have been the Kings of getting ToT from other nations.

Turkey has never been a Russian client. Russian state-owned military complex's modus operandi is very different from private Western vendors.

How can you be absorb google info sources and yet be so naive when it comes to giving analysis. You really think AL-31 TOT a world class fighter jet engine is comparable to selling Iran some Cold War relics and a few helicopters and SU-25?

Manteghi showing AL-31 in his official presentation to state media is "google info" to you?

and btw Russian-Iranian dynamics have changed. They are fighting a war against NATO indirectly and are dependent upon Iran. IRIAF was dying in 2000s already with some 10-15 FMC F-14A on QRA. Why did not Russia supply Iran with SU-30, Yak-130, A-50, TOT for Turbofan back then? because they were not isolated the way they are now. Iranian AL-31 in 2027-28 if materializes will not be some groundbreaking thing considering Iran has already shown its own single crystal blade Turbofan. Do you think Russians being one of the most cunning ethnicities in the world can not see that Iran taking strides in STEM R&D will not be a client anymore for their obsolete (by then) product so it is better to make $ when they can?

Here is my own observation over the decades following the Iranian military relationship with Russia. They supply a product to Iran when Iran can make a comparable one at home. Bavar-373 = S-400 so S-300PMU2 came. Even S-400 may show up in Iran in future. AL-31 TOT is coming because people who can make single crystal Jahesh-700 Turbofan can make a bigger one in few years too. If Iranian ARH AIM-7 project yields something like AIM-120C to arm the fleet then even R-77M (for SU-57) will come to Iran.

I’m not trolling. You seem to think in your mind that F-5 with drop tanks and fully loaded armament is going to be at 1m2 RCS? In what world? That’s like saying a fully loaded F-35 still holds its estimated .01m2 RCS.

Show proof where did I say "F-5 with drop tanks and fully loaded armament is going to be at 1m2 RCS".

I merely said that.

- You were misquoting the article, nowhere the authors in the entire paper even remotely suggested that their simulated RCS = real-life RCS. I even told you Theoretical simulated values =/= Real life values until the equation becomes "Theoretically simulated values x Coefficient of correction = Real life values". Authors never claimed that their simulated the RCS of 15 m2 is real life for they are not stupid.

- N-156 airframe has given birth to F-5 family which never got shot at BVR ranges by missiles that took down F-4, F-14 at distances. The F-18 itself is recorded by USN to have a RCS of 1-3 m^2. I have given evidence to both statements.

Scouring Babak Tweets, military ir, and regurgitating information (that at times is informative I admit)?

And that matters how? None of us here work for the Iranian military to have "our own sources", the majority of us live in West. I have always stated clearly that I have zero inside scoop. Even the slides I make I mentioned sources (mostly IISS, Missile threat, Iran state media etc).

That is why I think you are young enthusiast. That is all.

I think you misquote people (and even research papers) and when confronted you dodge the questions. You have failed to answer a single question I have put forward to you (I have a list).

I can continue debating with you as much as you like “Dr” Meson. Just try not to go jackal and Hyde so much.

Till next time

Game on. Continue being massacred.
 
Last edited:
On March 13, 2019 looking at the blueprints of a model posted by the user Skyshadows, the image of the user Sineva and the new wings that actually look like those of the F-7PG and the JL-9, I had speculated that there actually were some technical studies for an update and modification of the F-7.
Today with the information quoted above it seems that this modification was or is a real project.
Always curious to see how such a version could look, I made this photoshop that I propose again as it is no longer visible in my post of March 13, 2019
View attachment 934733

I have seen this pic here before offcourse, good work.

BT says the project of local FTC-2000G existed for a decade but will it materialize? If the plan was made in ~2010 the Kowsar-I, SU-35S, F-14AM upgrade with Fakour-90 etc were not on the horizon back then. UCAV fleet was small and not very diverse. IADS did not make strides the way it did post-2015. So wasting money on such a platform will add no value to Iranian air defence strategy will be stupidity. Hypothetically, if they re-work the airframe, put on Kowsars avionics on the plane and a local WVR, BVR package, it will cost around 10-12 Million USD a unit at least. An ideal future interception fleet does not have a place for a Frankenstein aircraft.
 
.........................

An interesting image of Chinese PL-10 WVR in DRPK. PL-10 ASR is a HMD-slaved IRIS-T, AIM-9X equivalent with no escape zone of 20 KM, designed for J-20. Which aircraft in DPRK can use it? Not the MIG-29 so some people are saying it's going to be J-10C (despite Arms Embargo)

FOTWQKiWUAQQmxg
 
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