IRIAF | News and Discussions

[VEVAK]

I can’t bother speaking to an imbecile who thinks SU-30 costs “150 million” per aircraft.

SU-30 costs 40 million and SU-35 depending on package 60 million.

And a few billion dollars is peanuts if Iran gets the ability to build SU-30 and ToT.

LOL! Just shows how little you know!

At the end of the day the Su-30 will end up costing Iran $150Million per aircraft which would naturally including The aircraft + Spare parts from spare engines to commonly used maintenance parts like oil filters breaks.... + maintenance tools & equipment + maintenance and pilot training + Pilot Gear + limited number of weapons and training equipment and gear...

Su-30 prices you see off wiki is nothing but a fictional prices because at the end of the day the Russians aren't going to sell you just the aircraft it's just not how it works you fool! And its no different with the U.S. the last time the Saudi's purchased F-15's it cost them an average of $230 Million per aircraft you freaking MORON!

Why are you even on this form if after all this time you still don't even know the most basic facts?

 

[TheImmortal]

LOL! Just shows how little you know!

At the end of the day the Su-30 will end up costing Iran $150Million per aircraft which would naturally including The aircraft + Spare parts from spare engines to commonly used maintenance parts like oil filters breaks.... + maintenance tools & equipment + maintenance and pilot training + Pilot Gear + limited number of weapons and training equipment and gear...

Su-30 prices you see off wiki is nothing but a fictional prices because at the end of the day the Russians aren't going to sell you just the aircraft it's just not how it works you fool! And its no different with the U.S. the last time the Saudi's purchased F-15's it cost them an average of $230 Million per aircraft you freaking MORON!

Why are you even on this form if after all this time you still don't even know the most basic facts?

I am tired of having to reiterate myself with you because you fail to read and lack basic comprehension.

So no, a SU-30 doesn’t have 110 million per aircraft in training/maintenance/and spare parts. That is absurd. Again you pull numbers without info or citation and zero experience and you want everyone to believe your words as truth. It’s hilarious and borderline propaganda. What the US charges the Arab monarchs is extortion, Russia doesn’t operate that way!

Anyway I clearly said Iran would have to ask for SU-30 production and ToT transfer meaning the planes would be assembled in Iran and maintenance would be done by Iran. Furthermore, most weapons will be Iranian weapons because there is no point to pay for Russian PGMs when Iranian ones do the job. Maybe a stockpile of advanced Russian BVRs could be considered.

Furthermore, maintenance and spare parts is spread over life of a contract if Iran wanted Russia to do all the work (which it won’t because Iran wants to know how to do everything).

So if Iran gets full or most of SU-30 production in Iran for a few billion dollars it allows Iran to understand a modern fighter to build its own program off of. Iran won’t learn to build a SU-30 from making 100 iterations of F-5! Use your brain!

Right now Air Force has a paltry budget (some sources say as low as $250 million a year) and that is spent on overhauling/maintenance/spare parts/pilots/drones/operating expenses of air force. So Iran is literally burning money keeping vintage aircraft flying.

You expect Iran air defenses to repel both aircraft waves and cruise missile waves AT the same time. I mean that is too much strain. You overestimate the number of Bavar-373 battalions and we already know Iran only has a few S-300. So your relying on BUK like medium range systems to do most of the defense with the long range systems acting as shields until they ultimately get destroyed during massive waves.

 

[VEVAK]

I am tired of having to reiterate myself with you because you fail to read and lack basic comprehension.

So no, a SU-30 doesn’t have 110 million per aircraft in training/maintenance/and spare parts. That is absurd. Again you pull numbers without info or citation and zero experience and you want everyone to believe your words as truth. It’s hilarious and borderline propaganda. What the US charges the Arab monarchs is extortion, Russia doesn’t operate that way!

Anyway I clearly said Iran would have to ask for SU-30 production and ToT transfer meaning the planes would be assembled in Iran and maintenance would be done by Iran. Furthermore, most weapons will be Iranian weapons because there is no point to pay for Russian PGMs when Iranian ones do the job. Maybe a stockpile of advanced Russian BVRs could be considered.

Furthermore, maintenance and spare parts is spread over life of a contract if Iran wanted Russia to do all the work (which it won’t because Iran wants to know how to do everything).

So if Iran gets full or most of SU-30 production in Iran for a few billion dollars it allows Iran to understand a modern fighter to build its own program off of. Iran won’t learn to build a SU-30 from making 100 iterations of F-5! Use your brain!

Right now Air Force has a paltry budget (some sources say as low as $250 million a year) and that is spent on overhauling/maintenance/spare parts/pilots/drones/operating expenses of air force. So Iran is literally burning money keeping vintage aircraft flying.

You expect Iran air defenses to repel both aircraft waves and cruise missile waves AT the same time. I mean that is too much strain. You overestimate the number of Bavar-373 battalions and we already know Iran only has a few S-300. So your relying on BUK like medium range systems to do most of the defense with the long range systems acting as shields until they ultimately get destroyed during massive waves.

Your too retarded for me to waist any more time on so i'll leave you with this just go pull up what others paid!

Venezuela $2.2 Bill for 22 Su-30Mk2 and when? back in 2006 and for MK2! And with very limited equipment....

As always you live in a delusional lala land

 

[TheImmortal]

Your too retarded for me to waist any more time on so i'll leave you with this just go pull up what others paid!

Venezuela $2.2 Bill for 22 Su-30Mk2 and when? back in 2006 and for MK2! And with very limited equipment....

As always you live in a delusional lala land

“waist” versus “waste”. But I am the retarded one? Yeah right

Too stupid to realize the difference between producing under license (India) vs a banana country buying from Russia and paying via selling its sovereignty (Venezuela).

here you go olagh:

HAL produces about 12 Su-30MKI multirole fighters each year. The company is expected to complete the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI fighters by March 2020.

Each Su-30MKI is built by HAL for $70.3 million under license by Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation.

Another HAL executive said a formal request has been sent to the Indian Air Force and the Ministry for Defence that they place an additional order for 72 locally made Su-30MKI fighters for about $5 billion, but the government has not yet made a decision

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/

India produces the SU-30 at a higher cost than Russia but that’s because HAL (Indian company) goes is seeking higher profit when selling to Indian Air Force so It’s quite possible their production costs are similar with Russia if you take out profit premium. But I will let you do the math on what 72 divided by $5B comes out to....maybe ask someone intelligent for help because you will struggle.

Producing in Iran will cheaper as it is abundant in natural resources plus cheaper labor. Then Iranian maintenance/spares/missiles will be much lower as well since they will be Iranian made and supplied.

As you can see some countries get screwed in arms deals and accept it. But the higher and bigger the deal the more incentive for host country to agree to sweeten the deal (discount).

So run along and learn the difference between license production vs buying small number and asking for complete hands on help from host country.

No country is going to invest in building plants and repair hubs for 14-28 jets, because of initial costs for such a small number of jets. It’s a whole different story to do so when you plan to build 150+ And have the aircraft production license (or in case of India 270+).

And you sit here like Iranian Air Force doesn’t spend money every year keeping F-14’s flying and all its other shah era junk. Newsflash: any plane Iran builds will require maintenance/support/spare parts. Even a car you buy you cannot expect it to go its whole life without needing repairs!

I can’t believe I have to explain this to you. But you are that dense. It’s cheaper to produce via license in long run then buy at a premium from host country and have them do everything for you. I thought you would realize that by now, but apparently in your mind Iran can build missiles for 50 dollars and can’t build anything else.

 

[VEVAK]

“waist” versus “waste”. But I am the retarded one? Yeah right

Too stupid to realize the difference between producing under license (India) vs a banana country buying from Russia and paying via selling its sovereignty (Venezuela).

here you go olagh:

HAL produces about 12 Su-30MKI multirole fighters each year. The company is expected to complete the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI fighters by March 2020.

Each Su-30MKI is built by HAL for $70.3 million under license by Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation.

Another HAL executive said a formal request has been sent to the Indian Air Force and the Ministry for Defence that they place an additional order for 72 locally made Su-30MKI fighters for about $5 billion, but the government has not yet made a decision

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/

India produces the SU-30 at a higher cost than Russia but that’s because HAL (Indian company) goes is seeking higher profit when selling to Indian Air Force so It’s quite possible their production costs are similar with Russia if you take out profit premium. But I will let you do the math on what 72 divided by $5B comes out to....maybe ask someone intelligent for help because you will struggle.

Producing in Iran will cheaper as it is abundant in natural resources plus cheaper labor. Then Iranian maintenance/spares/missiles will be much lower as well since they will be Iranian made and supplied.

As you can see some countries get screwed in arms deals and accept it. But the higher and bigger the deal the more incentive for host country to agree to sweeten the deal (discount).

So run along and learn the difference between license production vs buying small number and asking for complete hands on help from host country.

No country is going to invest in building plants and repair hubs for 14-28 jets, because of initial costs for such a small number of jets. It’s a whole different story to do so when you plan to build 150+ And have the aircraft production license (or in case of India 270+).

And you sit here like Iranian Air Force doesn’t spend money every year keeping F-14’s flying and all its other shah era junk. Newsflash: any plane Iran builds will require maintenance/support/spare parts. Even a car you buy you cannot expect it to go its whole life without needing repairs!

I can’t believe I have to explain this to you. But you are that dense. It’s cheaper to produce via license in long run then buy at a premium from host country and have them do everything for you. I thought you would realize that by now, but apparently in your mind Iran can build missiles for 50 dollars and can’t build anything else.

O U got me with a typo good for you!!! LOL! I Tell you your a moron and you don't believe it!

listen fool India started its purchase in the mid to late 90's for a tech transfer of the Su-30 and with it God knows how many other promises were made and even back then they got the Russians during hard economic hardship.... and even after years of deals with it India's help in funding the Su-57 and still after years of license production they can't build a single version with no weapons! no spares! no nothing for under $70Million which doesn't include the prices of everything else the would have to be added on whether you like it or not! And that's for Su-30 deals that date back to the mid 90's and so maintenance equipment, tools, training,.... is already there and unlike in a deal with Iran wouldn't require a transfer! As for weapons for the Su-30 again same thing they have a vast stock of unused weapons in a deal that dates back decades!

YOU IDIOT!

p.s. knock your self out acting as my spell check! Since that's all your good for anyways!

 

[GWXP]

There is a reason why Saudis and others pay high price per unit of aircraft....when you add spare parts, weapons, equipment and training price doubles or even triples.

 

[TheImmortal]

O U got me with a typo good for you!!! LOL! I Tell you your a moron and you don't believe it!

listen fool India started its purchase in the mid to late 90's for a tech transfer of the Su-30 and with it God knows how many other promises were made and even back then they got the Russians during hard economic hardship.... and even after years of deals with it India's help in funding the Su-57 and still after years of license production they can't build a single version with no weapons! no spares! no nothing for under $70Million which doesn't include the prices of everything else the would have to be added on whether you like it or not! And that's for Su-30 deals that date back to the mid 90's and so maintenance equipment, tools, training,.... is already there and unlike in a deal with Iran wouldn't require a transfer! As for weapons for the Su-30 again same thing they have a vast stock of unused weapons in a deal that dates back decades!

YOU IDIOT!

p.s. knock your self out acting as my spell check! Since that's all your good for anyways!

Provide proof of your assertions or your merely saying propaganda.

Here is reason why cost of plane is higher than Russian cost:


Future production of the Su-30MKI fighter jet is likely to be cheaper if a new order for bulk production is placed on HAL, Indian Minister of State for Defence, Subhash Bhamre has said.

Replying to parliamentarians’ queries regarding the high cost of the Su-30MKI aircraft manufactured in India as compared to Su-30 in Russia, the minister justified the increased cost on ground that the Indian jet includes equipment not available on the Russia-made aircraft and having to pay royalty to the Russian firm for technology transfer.

State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is currently producing the Su-30MKI at a flyaway cost of around $62 million per aircraft, which is around $22 million higher than the Su-30 jet supplied by Russia.

HAL had offered to lower the cost of manufacture if an additional order for bulk production of the Su-30 jets was placed on it.

The minister stated that the higher cost of indigenously manufactured SU-30MKI is due to following factors:-

Additional modifications are incorporated in the indigenous Su-30MKI to enhance the operational capability and to suit Indian Air Force (IAF) requirements.

Being a Transfer of Technology (ToT) programme, cost is involved towards payment of license fee to Russian side.

Owing to the low volume of production of Indian SU-30 MKI as compared to Russian SU-30, economies of scale come into play.

Import of raw materials and proprietary components from Russia involves dependency on Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) for the offered kit costs, which are not proportionate with the kit contents.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...han_Current_Lot__Indian_Minister#.XkZGvCROklQ

Notice the last part about raw materials, that I stated and now provide proof (unlike you who just pulls from his armchair General years of experience in every field from aerospace, missile engineering, nuclear engineering, etc.

Iran was able to build 85% of a T-90 (karrar) just buy using them in Syria Civil War. Iran never had ToT of even T-72, they were assembly kits.

So the reason why Iran has for 20 years been trying to secure SU-30 ToT is because it KNOWS it can reverse engineer it with just a little bit data. India ordered 1,000 AL engines to just have as back ups. But if you look at reverse engineering capability of Iran vs India history has been quite clear who can do it better!

So I think the engineers and leaders in Iranian Air Force know a little bit better than you if they be trying to secure a favorable SU-30 deal since the first crappy F-5 “domestic” program. What a joke.

 

[VEVAK]

Provide proof of your assertions or your merely saying propaganda.

Here is reason why cost of plane is higher than Russian cost:


Future production of the Su-30MKI fighter jet is likely to be cheaper if a new order for bulk production is placed on HAL, Indian Minister of State for Defence, Subhash Bhamre has said.

Replying to parliamentarians’ queries regarding the high cost of the Su-30MKI aircraft manufactured in India as compared to Su-30 in Russia, the minister justified the increased cost on ground that the Indian jet includes equipment not available on the Russia-made aircraft and having to pay royalty to the Russian firm for technology transfer.

State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is currently producing the Su-30MKI at a flyaway cost of around $62 million per aircraft, which is around $22 million higher than the Su-30 jet supplied by Russia.

HAL had offered to lower the cost of manufacture if an additional order for bulk production of the Su-30 jets was placed on it.

The minister stated that the higher cost of indigenously manufactured SU-30MKI is due to following factors:-

Additional modifications are incorporated in the indigenous Su-30MKI to enhance the operational capability and to suit Indian Air Force (IAF) requirements.

Being a Transfer of Technology (ToT) programme, cost is involved towards payment of license fee to Russian side.

Owing to the low volume of production of Indian SU-30 MKI as compared to Russian SU-30, economies of scale come into play.

Import of raw materials and proprietary components from Russia involves dependency on Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) for the offered kit costs, which are not proportionate with the kit contents.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...han_Current_Lot__Indian_Minister#.XkZGvCROklQ

Notice the last part about raw materials, that I stated and now provide proof (unlike you who just pulls from his armchair General years of experience in every field from aerospace, missile engineering, nuclear engineering, etc.

Iran was able to build 85% of a T-90 (karrar) just buy using them in Syria Civil War. Iran never had ToT of even T-72, they were assembly kits.

So the reason why Iran has for 20 years been trying to secure SU-30 ToT is because it KNOWS it can reverse engineer it with just a little bit data. India ordered 1,000 AL engines to just have as back ups. But if you look at reverse engineering capability of Iran vs India history has been quite clear who can do it better!

So I think the engineers and leaders in Iranian Air Force know a little bit better than you if they be trying to secure a favorable SU-30 deal since the first crappy F-5 “domestic” program. What a joke.

Fine $62M semantics! It's still on paper $22M more per! And again that's just for the cost of the Aircraft MORON not all things we will naturally need to go with it! It's not like we would be buying them for show!

And It doesn't change the facts that the Indians have over 260 Su-30's so they already have an ample supply of maintenance equipment, they already have trained pilots and trained maintenance personal, they would naturally have a vast stock of unused weapons, parts, pilot gear, training equipment,..... and if we were to buy them unlike the Indian's we would need all those things! And so if you dig deep into a viable deal that goes past the simple cost of the Aircraft alone and includes all the things that Iran would naturally need you wont find one that cost that nation under $100 million on average per aircraft if not a lot more....

Plus at the end of the day and as long as the U.S. remains in our region what good are Su-30's anyways? As I told you before in the air a Su-30MK2 will easily come up short against air superiority fighters equipped with X-Band AESA radars because that part is a no brainer! So for taking out enemy fighters WHY would Iran choose a battlefield where we pay easily over $100m per aircraft and they still have the advantage? It's absurd! Especially knowing that we could instead take them out while they are on the ground being maintained at a fraction of the cost using our own domestically produced weapons! Even against the Saudi's simply for the cost of a single Su-30 against each Saudi Air Force base we can demolish that base and there wouldn't be damn thing they could do about it and at that point it really wouldn't matter that Iranian fighters are technologically no more advanced than the Kowsar Iran recently put out!

And yes Iran tried for years to secure Su-30 Technology Transfer! So what? It's because we have experience in knowing how useless a purchased imported fleet truly is to a point that it's now Iranian law and any large purchase by law has to be a technology transfer! And I have no problem with a tech transfer so long as a large portion of required maintenance parts are domestically produced however I would much prefer to build our own!

As for T-72 kit's most assembly lines are by the most part kit's being put together so what's your point?

 

[TheImmortal]

And yes Iran tried for years to secure Su-30 Technology Transfer! So what? It's because we have experience in knowing how useless a purchased imported fleet truly is to a point that it's now Iranian law and any large purchase by law has to be a technology transfer! And I have no problem with a tech transfer so long as a large portion of required maintenance parts are domestically produced however I would much prefer to build our own!

As for T-72 kit's most assembly lines are by the most part kit's being put together so what's your point?

So you prefer ToT and domestically manufactured parts? So you like to argue for sake of arguing because that is what I said but your too stupid to even be able to read the English language.

And Iran can NEVER build a SU-30 equivalent just by sitting around tinkering with 70’s era fighter jets. It doesn’t work that way or else every country would be flying their own jet designs.

SU-30 with the radar of SU-35 can detect even low RCS objects!. So you dissing and entire PLATFORM/design over something simple like Radar is a joke. Its like saying why build a Mowj vessel it has radar from 1970s it’s inferior! Well it doesn’t anymore does it? Radar can always be upgraded and so can armament.

What is key is the design of the Heavy fighter jet and knowing how to build and maintain its engines. Tinkering around with F-5’s won’t teach you anything about heavy fighter class jets.

And Iran attempting to build its own fighter jet and fighter jet engines could easily spend BILLIONS and still get a fighter jet or engine that is not reliable! For someone so obsessed with cost you have faulty logic. Go look at India’s Tejas fighter as an example! Or any other fighter program that had ample money sunk into and never made it beyond minor production!

My point via T-72 was Iran couldn’t even build T-72 without the kits but it managed to build a T-90 by various means. So saying Iran couldn’t upgrade the SU-30 platform on its own or supply parts is not true at all. All Iran needs is the PUSH and it can handle everything else. The problem is no country has yet to agree to that PUSH because they don’t want Iran to be self sufficient in its Air Force.

Also if you think that Iran’s BMs will stop a superpower like the US from finding ways to get planes to attack Iran you are dumber than I thought. And if you think Iran’s air defense systems can handle 100+ fighters plus cruise missiles waves all its on own without any air force to take some of the burden off of it, again you are naive.

Iran’s air defense network is no where near being saturated enough with overlap that would allow for heavy losses to its AD teams and still be able to defend the skies adequately.

Once air defense network crumbles, missiles will be much harder to fire as enemy will be constantly in Iranian air space acting with impunity

 

[VEVAK]

So you prefer ToT and domestically manufactured parts? So you like to argue for sake of arguing because that is what I said but your too stupid to even be able to read the English language.

And Iran can NEVER build a SU-30 equivalent just by sitting around tinkering with 70’s era fighter jets. It doesn’t work that way or else every country would be flying their own jet designs.

SU-30 with the radar of SU-35 can detect even low RCS objects!. So you dissing and entire PLATFORM/design over something simple like Radar is a joke. Its like saying why build a Mowj vessel it has radar from 1970s it’s inferior! Well it doesn’t anymore does it? Radar can always be upgraded and so can armament.

What is key is the design of the Heavy fighter jet and knowing how to build and maintain its engines. Tinkering around with F-5’s won’t teach you anything about heavy fighter class jets.

And Iran attempting to build its own fighter jet and fighter jet engines could easily spend BILLIONS and still get a fighter jet or engine that is not reliable! For someone so obsessed with cost you have faulty logic. Go look at India’s Tejas fighter as an example! Or any other fighter program that had ample money sunk into and never made it beyond minor production!

My point via T-72 was Iran couldn’t even build T-72 without the kits but it managed to build a T-90 by various means. So saying Iran couldn’t upgrade the SU-30 platform on its own or supply parts is not true at all. All Iran needs is the PUSH and it can handle everything else. The problem is no country has yet to agree to that PUSH because they don’t want Iran to be self sufficient in its Air Force.

Also if you think that Iran’s BMs will stop a superpower like the US from finding ways to get planes to attack Iran you are dumber than I thought. And if you think Iran’s air defense systems can handle 100+ fighters plus cruise missiles waves all its on own without any air force to take some of the burden off of it, again you are naive.

Iran’s air defense network is no where near being saturated enough with overlap that would allow for heavy losses to its AD teams and still be able to defend the skies adequately.

Once air defense network crumbles, missiles will be much harder to fire as enemy will be constantly in Iranian air space acting with impunity

Don't put words in my mouth! I would prefer Domestic Production but to be more specific I don't and wouldn't have a problem with ToT so long as
1.All the maintenance parts that require replacement within a years or so are domestically produced be it a simple washer or tiers or break pads or oil filters or anything else! (with standard flight hours per year)
2.We get access to the weapons systems to a point where we can build and use our own weapons and upgrade and add our own sensors.
3.We are allowed to open up and inspect every single part and weapon of that aircraft.

As for an Iranian heavy fighter requiring billions its the same if not more with tot with the difference being with a domestics fighter program your actually investing in real infrastructure that lasts generations and your learning to do everything yourself from the ground up while with a tot your really being spoon fed some other countries outdated tech and only to build and assemble very limited number of parts while still remaining dependent on them for a long list of other parts and weapons....

But again if it was up to me I would instead fund our guys properly to go for a fully domestically produced fighter! And I'm fully confident that for what it would actually cost us to do a ToT and build 70-100 Su-30's (With weapons, parts, training,...) we could actually fund and get our own fighter program going and produce the same number of Fighters on an airframe equipped with an internal weapons bay and lower RCS (Aircraft only) at home and in the long run that would be far more valuable and affordable when it comes to part replacement and arming them in the long run.

 

[Ich]

Iran Equips Mirage Fighters with Home-Grown Radar

http://en.farsnews.ir/newstext.aspx?nn=13981127000585

Wasnt there also new AA-missiles anounced for this airplane? With new radar and new missiles and some new instruments/bord computers - will this Mirage F1B be a good low price complement for the iranian air force? There are 24 of them.

 

[TheImmortal]

Wasnt there also new AA-missiles anounced for this airplane? With new radar and new missiles and some new instruments/bord computers - will this Mirage F1B be a good low price complement for the iranian air force? There are 24 of them.

They will be a good flying coffin.

A British tornado got taken down by barefooted houthis using a Iranian designed AA.

So that should tell you the life expectancy of an Mirage fighter in war. Unless it’s going to be bombing taliban fighters, I wouldn’t want to be the pilot that gets sent in the air to defend against F-35, F-22, and F-18’s

 

[Ich]

They will be a good flying coffin.

A British tornado got taken down by barefooted houthis using a Iranian designed AA.

So that should tell you the life expectancy of an Mirage fighter in war. Unless it’s going to be bombing taliban fighters, I wouldn’t want to be the pilot that gets sent in the air to defend against F-35, F-22, and F-18’s

Thats clear. Whereas with a new modern radar with longer range and new missiles like long range AA or even cruise missile capability or ASHM capability, me think it would not be a bad complement compared to what Iran has now.

 

[VEVAK]

 

[Ich]

What they say about Mirage F1 and F4 Phantom?