IRIAF | News and Discussions

[WinterNights]

Without the ability to build a large single peace Titanium bulkhead Iran's ability to produce a viable fighter jet with sufficient thrust, range & payload capacity and will remain in doubt!

F-35 7085 bulkhead


F-15 Ti bulkhead before and after press


And once you develop the capability to make large Ti blocks and the tools like massive vacuumed ovens presses needed to build the bulkheads then Ti Wing tips and other Ti parts shouldn't be a problem

FYI building the F-35 wings also require massive vacuum ovens

And due to Sanctions NO one will EVER sell Iran massive Ti or high grade aluminum composite blocks at an affordable price due to sanctions so 1st of all to produce a viable fighter a Ti industry would be a requirement!

Iran could potentially make large Magnesium alloy blocks and cover them with Nano coating and layers of composites to build a bulkhead but we would still need large vacuumed oven presses to build the bulkheads

Also having an internal weapons bay will reduce the requirement on the wings payload capacity.

But none of these are a necessity for an R&D program to build your 1st working prototype!

For now the main problem Iran currently has is a lack of will to build a more capable fighter prototype!
And an absolute miscalculation as to what Iranian fighter program should look like and what type of fighter program Iran needs to put it's human resources towards building!

In the past 2 decades every fighter program Iran has put Human Resources towards has been a Light Close Air support fighter from the Shafaq(M-ATF), Azarakhsh, Simorgh, Saegheh,Q-313, Kowsar, Bavar, FB-44...…
And without exception all of them are CAS fighter that would be useless in a country the size of Iran with the security concerns Iran has!
And when every fighter program in the past 2 decades has been of a CAS fighter then clearly this is a leadership problem!

The French built the Mirage IV in 1960 which is a Mach 2.2 Platform with a combat radius of +1200km and ability to carry up to 16x 1000lb bombs with engines that were less powerful and less sophisticated than the J79's

So clearly this is NOT a matter of technology and if Iran wanted to and if they had spent a sufficient amount of time, human resources and money on it they could have easily built something far superior than the Mirage IV by now!
By the most part the F-4 Airframe is a poorly designed Airframe and using the J-79 engines Iran could easily build a superior Delta wing design that would be sufficient until Iran could come up with a turbofan replacement and in the future an Airframe that can handle higher G's....

The problem we have today is miscalculation made by our leadership!

A single Mirage IV could easily do the job of 8 F-5's against targets beyond +300km of Iranian soil so if 8 Iranian Kowsars end up costing us $132 Million USD ($16.5 Million per Aircraft) rather than building 8 of them you would be far better off building a larger Iranian supersonic fighter bomber about the size of the Mirage IV with Iranian upgraded version of the J-79 at a production cost of $132 Million USD per Aircraft.

This obsession with CAS fighters is a total miss calculation from Iran's leadership and it seems that they just can't comprehend that just because an Aircraft initial purchasing prices is cheaper and just because the aircraft's operation costs, maintenance cost and fuel cost by comparison is cheaper it doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft is cost effective!

And with force multipliers you can afford to spend more money per Aircraft on building better fortified bunkers, more money per aircraft on SAM & other defensive equipment, more money on ground decoys, more money on sensor and targeting equipment, you can easily have a larger portion of your fleet ready to scramble to protect them against incoming missiles, you can afford to put laser countermeasures on each aircraft and IRST and IR missiles to take out any threat that gets within visible range of your fighter you can deploy a larger number of longer range missiles to take out enemy SAM & runways to protect your aircraft and the list goes on an on!

Where are you getting your figure of 16.5 mill per kowsar from? They have not stated the price. They stated in the recent interview that each aircraft will save them 17 mill (6mill of which is from avionic). Are you confusing that with the price?

 

[skyshadow]

View attachment 494336

thanks

 

[Aramagedon]

Without the ability to build a large single peace Titanium bulkhead Iran's ability to produce a viable fighter jet with sufficient thrust, range & payload capacity and will remain in doubt!

F-35 7085 bulkhead


F-15 Ti bulkhead before and after press


And once you develop the capability to make large Ti blocks and the tools like massive vacuumed ovens presses needed to build the bulkheads then Ti Wing tips and other Ti parts shouldn't be a problem

FYI building the F-35 wings also require massive vacuum ovens

And due to Sanctions NO one will EVER sell Iran massive Ti or high grade aluminum composite blocks at an affordable price due to sanctions so 1st of all to produce a viable fighter a Ti industry would be a requirement!

Iran could potentially make large Magnesium alloy blocks and cover them with Nano coating and layers of composites to build a bulkhead but we would still need large vacuumed oven presses to build the bulkheads

Also having an internal weapons bay will reduce the requirement on the wings payload capacity.

But none of these are a necessity for an R&D program to build your 1st working prototype!

For now the main problem Iran currently has is a lack of will to build a more capable fighter prototype!
And an absolute miscalculation as to what Iranian fighter program should look like and what type of fighter program Iran needs to put it's human resources towards building!

In the past 2 decades every fighter program Iran has put Human Resources towards has been a Light Close Air support fighter from the Shafaq(M-ATF), Azarakhsh, Simorgh, Saegheh,Q-313, Kowsar, Bavar, FB-44...…
And without exception all of them are CAS fighter that would be useless in a country the size of Iran with the security concerns Iran has!
And when every fighter program in the past 2 decades has been of a CAS fighter then clearly this is a leadership problem!

The French built the Mirage IV in 1960 which is a Mach 2.2 Platform with a combat radius of +1200km and ability to carry up to 16x 1000lb bombs with engines that were less powerful and less sophisticated than the J79's

So clearly this is NOT a matter of technology and if Iran wanted to and if they had spent a sufficient amount of time, human resources and money on it they could have easily built something far superior than the Mirage IV by now!
By the most part the F-4 Airframe is a poorly designed Airframe and using the J-79 engines Iran could easily build a superior Delta wing design that would be sufficient until Iran could come up with a turbofan replacement and in the future an Airframe that can handle higher G's....

The problem we have today is miscalculation made by our leadership!

A single Mirage IV could easily do the job of 8 F-5's against targets beyond +300km of Iranian soil so if 8 Iranian Kowsars end up costing us $132 Million USD ($16.5 Million per Aircraft) rather than building 8 of them you would be far better off building a larger Iranian supersonic fighter bomber about the size of the Mirage IV with Iranian upgraded version of the J-79 at a production cost of $132 Million USD per Aircraft.

This obsession with CAS fighters is a total miss calculation from Iran's leadership and it seems that they just can't comprehend that just because an Aircraft initial purchasing prices is cheaper and just because the aircraft's operation costs, maintenance cost and fuel cost by comparison is cheaper it doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft is cost effective!

And with force multipliers you can afford to spend more money per Aircraft on building better fortified bunkers, more money per aircraft on SAM & other defensive equipment, more money on ground decoys, more money on sensor and targeting equipment, you can easily have a larger portion of your fleet ready to scramble to protect them against incoming missiles, you can afford to put laser countermeasures on each aircraft and IRST and IR missiles to take out any threat that gets within visible range of your fighter you can deploy a larger number of longer range missiles to take out enemy SAM & runways to protect your aircraft and the list goes on an on!

Have u ever sat on a fighter jet?

 

[VEVAK]

Have u ever sat on a fighter jet?

many times why?

 

[VEVAK]

many times why?

Have u ever sat on a fighter jet?

Never flown one if that's what you mean!

 

[VEVAK]

Never flown one if that's what you mean!

If had 20/20 vision I would have been a fighter pilot because that's the only thing I was interested in at a very young age!

 

[Aramagedon]

If had 20/20 vision I would have been a fighter pilot because that's the only thing I was interested in at a very young age!

At least you could become an aerospace engineer which seems you aren't.

There are thousands of aerospace engineers in Iran and you aren’t one of them.

And most of your posts are downright negative and frustrating and mixed with your empty guesses and calculations which seems most of them are untrue.

Furthermore I think you are wasting your time because nobody in aircraft industry read your posts especially in english.

If you were in a Persian language Iranian forum probably you could attract more audience.

 

[VEVAK]

Where are you getting your figure of 16.5 mill per kowsar from? They have not stated the price. They stated in the recent interview that each aircraft will save them 17 mill (6mill of which is from avionic). Are you confusing that with the price?

$16.5 Million saving in Sarfehjoi e Arzi which basically means that how much they cost and that's how much Iran would of had to pay to import them if we actually could import them!

Basically that how much they cost not how much money Iran saves!!!!!

How much do you think an Aircraft like that costs for Iran to save $16.5 Million USD per aircraft???

FYI an American T-38 was prices at $7 Million USD in 2016 so yea $17 Million USD is about how much they would be sold for to Iran's Air Force

 

[VEVAK]

At least you could become an aerospace engineer which seems you aren't.

Anyway most of your posts are downright negative and frustrating and mixed with your empty guesses and calculations which seems many of them are untrue.

Furthermore I think you are wasting your time because nobody in aircraft industry read your posts.

If you were in a Persian language Iranian forum probably you could attract more audience.

Anyway I hope best wishes for you. If you are easier this way with your merely negative and longgg posts continue this way.

Which is untrue? And negative or not facts are FACT's!!!

And the upgrades, Avionics and weapons systems Iran has built are astonishing BUT the fact remains that they are wasted on the F-5 or Kowsar or any other Iranian CAS platform although they would be a necessary step in the development of a more capable fighter but the main thing that worries me is Iran's obsession with CAS fighters and looking at all of Iran's fighter programs in the past it is clear that this is a leadership problem.

If the French were able to build the Mirage IV in the late 50's early 60 then Iran is fully capable of building something far superior today and the only reason we don't is mainly due to BAD Leadership decisions!

 

[yavar]

 

[07_SeppDietrich]

thanks
View attachment 494337

Is that F-4 or J-7?

 

[TheImmortal]

Which is untrue? And negative or not facts are FACT's!!!

And the upgrades, Avionics and weapons systems Iran has built are astonishing BUT the fact remains that they are wasted on the F-5 or Kowsar or any other Iranian CAS platform although they would be a necessary step in the development of a more capable fighter but the main thing that worries me is Iran's obsession with CAS fighters and looking at all of Iran's fighter programs in the past it is clear that this is a leadership problem.

If the French were able to build the Mirage IV in the late 50's early 60 then Iran is fully capable of building something far superior today and the only reason we don't is mainly due to BAD Leadership decisions!

LYou have no idea what Black projects Iran is working on or has worked on currently. So unless you have access to highly classified information stop making assumptions.

Iran needed an modern cockpit to train their new generation of fighters Koswar-1 (F-5 modernized) and Kowsar will do that. Iran’s Air Force pilots are aging! Iran needs fresh blood in order to fly the super fancy planes you want them to make or buy. Those pilots need to be trained with modern avionics unless you expect your super duper 6th gen airplane to have analog dials of a 1970’s aircraft!

Furthermore, Iran has already stated they are nearing production of an engine that has 4 times the power of J-85. That would mean an engine in the >50nt class. Again they wouldn’t be doing that IF THEY didn’t plan on making a bigger fighter.

Iran also announced they are building a heavy turbofan and turbojet engine for a heavy fighter. Again they wouldn’t do that if they weren’t planning on another fighter design outside of F-5.

You are right in that It’s quite clear Iran’s focus was not airforce in the last 20 years.

1) First priority was achieving credible military deterrence against enemies through ballistic missile production and cruise missiles. That took nearly 30 years to accomplish.

2) 2nd priority was upgrading and establishing a significant air defense network to protect the country. Also to cause further pain for any adversary that would want to attack it. That was accomplished and took nearly 20 years to accomplish (in some ways still ongoing with a Bavar 373 project not yet ready).

3) Iran’s 3rd priority will be to revive the airforce based on recent news in the last 5 years to upgrade the airforce. This more concentrated effort started back in 2007-2010 possibly.

So assuming another 20 year timetable, that would mean Iran has till 2030 to present its efforts in this area.

 

[Blue In Green]

LYou have no idea what Black projects Iran is working on or has worked on currently. So unless you have access to highly classified information stop making assumptions.

Iran needed an modern cockpit to train their new generation of fighters Koswar-1 (F-5 modernized) and Kowsar will do that. Iran’s Air Force pilots are aging! Iran needs fresh blood in order to fly the super fancy planes you want them to make or buy. Those pilots need to be trained with modern avionics unless you expect your super duper 6th gen airplane to have analog dials of a 1970’s aircraft!

Furthermore, Iran has already stated they are nearing production of an engine that has 4 times the power of J-85. That would mean an engine in the >50nt class. Again they wouldn’t be doing that IF THEY didn’t plan on making a bigger fighter.

Iran also announced they are building a heavy turbofan and turbojet engine for a heavy fighter. Again they wouldn’t do that if they weren’t planning on another fighter design outside of F-5.

You are right in that It’s quite clear Iran’s focus was not airforce in the last 20 years.

1) First priority was achieving credible military deterrence against enemies through ballistic missile production and cruise missiles. That took nearly 30 years to accomplish.

2) 2nd priority was upgrading and establishing a significant air defense network to protect the country. Also to cause further pain for any adversary that would want to attack it. That was accomplished and took nearly 20 years to accomplish (in some ways still ongoing with a Bavar 373 project not yet ready).

3) Iran’s 3rd priority will be to revive the airforce based on recent news in the last 5 years to upgrade the airforce. This more concentrated effort started back in 2007-2010 possibly.

So assuming another 20 year timetable, that would mean Iran has till 2030 to present its efforts in this area.

Very nice post; Your points are quite logical.

 

[WinterNights]

LYou have no idea what Black projects Iran is working on or has worked on currently. So unless you have access to highly classified information stop making assumptions.

Iran needed an modern cockpit to train their new generation of fighters Koswar-1 (F-5 modernized) and Kowsar will do that. Iran’s Air Force pilots are aging! Iran needs fresh blood in order to fly the super fancy planes you want them to make or buy. Those pilots need to be trained with modern avionics unless you expect your super duper 6th gen airplane to have analog dials of a 1970’s aircraft!

Furthermore, Iran has already stated they are nearing production of an engine that has 4 times the power of J-85. That would mean an engine in the >50nt class. Again they wouldn’t be doing that IF THEY didn’t plan on making a bigger fighter.

Iran also announced they are building a heavy turbofan and turbojet engine for a heavy fighter. Again they wouldn’t do that if they weren’t planning on another fighter design outside of F-5.

You are right in that It’s quite clear Iran’s focus was not airforce in the last 20 years.

1) First priority was achieving credible military deterrence against enemies through ballistic missile production and cruise missiles. That took nearly 30 years to accomplish.

2) 2nd priority was upgrading and establishing a significant air defense network to protect the country. Also to cause further pain for any adversary that would want to attack it. That was accomplished and took nearly 20 years to accomplish (in some ways still ongoing with a Bavar 373 project not yet ready).

3) Iran’s 3rd priority will be to revive the airforce based on recent news in the last 5 years to upgrade the airforce. This more concentrated effort started back in 2007-2010 possibly.

So assuming another 20 year timetable, that would mean Iran has till 2030 to present its efforts in this area.

Indeed bro, I always find it hilarious that some people on a forum think they know better than the people in Iranian defence forces. They know what they're doing far better than we do. We're just trying to judge everything based on what we're fed through the cameras and media, who knows what's developing in Iran away from the spotlights.

 

[Draco.IMF]

Sadly one F-5 crashed in Iran, pilot dead, co-pilot wounded

https://thedefensepost.com/2018/08/26/iran-f-5-crash-pilot-killed/