Iranians v Afghans v Pakistanis. Economic migrants fight each other at KOS(doorway to Europe)

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You owe them the one of world's best canal system

And while that was significant, it was done for a specific selfish reason - ensuring sufficient agricultural output for the British Empire - it pales in comparison to the industrialisation and development Pakistan has seen since independence.

Yes.

Where and how did you pick it up?

Lovely name that island. Iranians and Afghans will know

I believe it's pronounced the same way in Arabic slang as well (not sure if the origin of the word is the same).

As I said, whatever makes you happy. Having traveled a few (over a dozen actually) countries, being Pakistani, getting my passport stared at repeatedly by Immigration, being profiled repeatedly, pulled out for questioning, etc. etc.

I've travelled/travel a lot on a Pakistani passport as well. I haven't, so far, experienced the same level or profiling that you have ... Perhaps it's the individual, or bad luck on your part?

 

[SwAggeR]

And while that was significant, I was done for a specific selfish reason - ensuring sufficient agricultural output for the British Empire - it pales in comparison to the industrialisation and development Pakistan has seen since independence.

That was not my point. You pointed out that India had her railway infra developed by them so being Indian my reflexes kicked in for quid pro quo.Anyway their railway too was developed solely to move their troops and for ferrying out raw materials out of India.

Where and how did you pick it up?

Was just curious and Muslim friends helped .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sir, with all due respect are u actually justifying these things? I admit we south Asians nations have more or less same social and economic structure which drives us to go abroad and achieve a better life. there are hell lot of people from India staying in Europe and USA and yet u hardly heard of them being violent, creating havoc or involving in terror activities. Have u ever asked this question why? why the pakistanis have to bite the hands that feed them? I mean, I know what they do in uk too, and u cant just brush them under the carpet saying they are just satisfying their spiritual needs.

I think you may have misunderstood my post, and I recognize that I didn't really explain a complex issue (multiple issues really) in detail, since that was not my intention.

The first question I touched upon was 'why people from countries with significantly different socio-cultural and religious dynamics (in contrast to the West) move to Western States'. My reference to 'hierarchy of needs' was made in this context, to try and explain how human behavior is 'generally' driven by the 'hierarchy of needs' theory (Maslow - google it / look it up in Wikipedia - it's pretty straighforward to understand as a theory, though application in the real world is much harder due to complexities in human behavior and impact of variables ). The most basic human needs involve survival, saftey, material security (food, economics, etc). When these basic needs are not being met (or are in danger) humans don't generally care for how different the religio-socio-cultural dynamics of their new home /destination are. India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have millions of laborers working in what essentially amount to 'indentured servitude' in the Gulf, yet more and more go to/return to the GCC countries because they feel their basic financial needs are better met there.

The second question, that I referenced in just one sentence, was that of immigrants trying to morph their adopted home into a reflection of the home they left behind. This is a much more complex issue, and the behavior of immigrants (even all Pakistani immigrants) isn't always classifiable into one category. There are some who work within the system to try and change it to conform with their religo-cultural values and others who essentially violate the laws of their new homes in attempting the same. While the latter cannot be excused, the former I see no issue with, since 'working within the system' exposes their views to open debate and discussion, which is what we need in Pakistan as well, to help shift attitudes.

What exactly is the leadership who fail you guys ...

Specifically, the Army Generals who carried out military coups, and civilian leaders like ZA Bhutto who squandered their advantages and sold out their constituents by pandering to religious extremists.

Allah is good to Muslims by giving you guys oil and at the same time, trying to be a good father by showing how shit Islmo land can be without oil. Unfortunately Muslims are not learning to be good.

Pakistan doesn't have vast oil reserves, so this comment isn't really applicable to Pakistanis. Tag some GCC Arab posters instead.

 

[FULL_METAL]

I think you may have misunderstood my post, and I recognize that I didn't really explain a complex issue (multiple issues really) in detail, since that was not my intention.

The first question I touched upon was 'why people from countries with significantly different socio-cultural and religious dynamics (in contrast to the West) move to Western States'. My reference to 'hierarchy of needs' was made in this context, to try and explain how human behavior is 'generally' driven by the 'hierarchy of needs' theory (Maslow - google it / look it up in Wikipedia - it's pretty straighforward to understand as a theory, though application in the real world is much harder due to complexities in human behavior and impact of variables ). The most basic human needs involve survival, saftey, material security (food, economics, etc). When these basic needs are not being met (or are in danger) humans don't generally care for how different the religio-socio-cultural dynamics of their new home /destination are. India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have millions of laborers working in what essentially amount to 'indentured servitude' in the Gulf, yet more and more go to/return to the GCC countries because they feel their basic financial needs are better met there.

The second question, that I referenced in just one sentence, was that of immigrants trying to morph their adopted home into a reflection of the home they left behind. This is a much more complex issue, and the behavior of immigrants (even all Pakistani immigrants) isn't always classifiable into one category. There are some who work within the system to try and change it to conform with their religo-cultural values and others who essentially violate the laws of their new homes in attempting the same. While the latter cannot be excused, the former I see no issue with, since 'working within the system' exposes their views to open debate and discussion, which is what we need in Pakistan as well, to help shift attitudes.

Thank u sir for a detailed reply. Much appreciated.

On the other hand do u think that sometimes the host countries are somewhat responsible for the violent outburst of the immigrants? I mean especially in the gulf counties where south Asians are looked down upon and often exploited by their arab employers.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That was not my point. You pointed out that India had her railway infra developed by them so being Indian my reflexes kicked in for quid pro quo.Anyway their railway too was developed solely to move their troops and for ferrying out raw materials out of India.

The reference to India was in a broader context of British development prior to 1947. I wasn't looking at specific items like canals or railroads, but the overall level of human, industrial and infrastructural development by the British in pre-1947 Pakistan and India. I was also not suggesting that the British did significant development in what today constitutes India - the conditions were horrible in both countries.

Was just curious and Muslim friends helped .

In chidhood? Still keep up on reading and writing?

 

[Magi Brahmin]

No bother. Actually Urdu is my mother tongue

My grand-dad migrated from Delhi (originally from Agra) and my grandmother was from Ajmer, Rajasthan.

so u r a racially one of us (desi evil bhartis )

neither do pakistani tourists... idk wtf your talking about....maybe its just you who gets asked.


those people you mentioned along with their supporters deserved to be lined up and shot and then feed their corpses to dogs.... every traitor to pakistan is a hero for you.... shows the piece of shit your really are.


we pakistanis are always pakistanis... weather we are third generation or fourth..
im a second generation pakistani-american... i hold both citizenships and so will my kids and my grandkids.... i dont abandon our countries and cultures...

good for you really, india mai to duel citizenship pe ban hai I guess.

 

[qamar1990]

They're going there to seek asylum. Pakistani immigrants are not going to these countries as doctors, engineers or as any white collar professional. They will probably sweep streets, work at kebab shops or clean toilets...this is what this nation has become...the dalit of the world.

What's with your paindu vs. mommy/daddy complex?

listen dont quote me again.... dalits are humans just like any one...

If you knew anything about Che Guevara you would also know how deeply he detested religious identity. People like you wouldn't be his friends exactly. But how does it matter to you? Your ignorance is a cozy blanket - wrap it around yourself and feel warm dear.

just leave che out of this

I've travelled/travel a lot on a Pakistani passport as well. I haven't, so far, experienced the same level or profiling that you have ... Perhaps it's the individual, or bad luck on your part?

it has to be him...
@Saahil84

Please stop spreading your benighted BS opinion about life in pakistan .Yes pakistan is no norway or vancouver but it aint the worst place to live either and India is not a better , their HDI is more or less the same as ours , so is their per captia income. If you live in an urban city like Lahore or Islamabad than the HDI is above 0.90 same as that of Europe. I was born and raised in Dubai , lived in Brighton and currently located in Lahore .I must say i really enjoy life here , not having skyscrapers doesnt bother me at all . Infact ,i adore the local culture and the cuisine is delicious.

@Metanoia @Saahil84 are both baniya false falgers.....

 

[Saahil84]

And while that was significant, I was done for a specific selfish reason - ensuring sufficient agricultural output for the British Empire - it pales in comparison to the industrialisation and development Pakistan has seen since independence.


Where and how did you pick it up?


I believe it's pronounced the same way in Arabic slang as well (not sure if the origin of the word is the same).

I've travelled/travel a lot on a Pakistani passport as well. I haven't, so far, experienced the same level or profiling that you have ... Perhaps it's the individual, or bad luck on your part?

Recently in Greece, on the Island of Crete, I was waiting outside Chania Airport along with an Indian colleague. A patrol policeman inquired politely about our nationalities. He got a pass; while I had to show my Passport. There was no reason for that apart from the reputation that both of our countries have garnered over the past couple of decades. I reap the bad harvest of the poisonous seeds sown by my fellow citizens.

The reference to India was in a broader context of British development prior to 1947. I wasn't looking at specific items like canals or railroads, but the overall level of human, industrial and infrastructural development by the British in pre-1947 Pakistan and India. I was also not suggesting that the British did significant development in what today constitutes India - the conditions were horrible in both countries.

In chidhood? Still keep up on reading and writing?

Friends, please don't misunderstand me. But I think it is farcical to discuss the good aspects of imperialism. The British were here to rob, which is all they did. Whatever they needed to help them in this endeavour, they did. They needed a loyal class of servants, so they saw to it that some of us got an education, they needed to transport material to the ports and from there, so they built railways, they wanted safe highways for themselves, so they got rid of the thuggee. Not to say that these aren't good things, but we paid a very heavy price for them.

I think that the only desirable fallout of British rule for India at least is that they got secular institutions; we didn't even get that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Recently in Greece, on the Island of Crete, I was waiting outside Chania Airport along with an Indian colleague. A patrol policeman inquired politely about our nationalities. He got a pass; while I had to show my Passport. There was no reason for that apart from the reputation that both of our countries have garnered over the past couple of decades. I reap the bad harvest of the poisonous seeds sown by my fellow citizens.

I still think you are generalizing - I drove across one of the bridges into Canada (from the US) a few years ago accidentally, and as luck would have it I had forgotten my wallet at home. I turned around at the first location prior to entering Canada that I could and went through the standard US immigration aisles and explained my situation. Apart from having to look up my information in the database, there was no additional time involved and it was a very friendly experience, even with the reminders that I was violating multiple laws (operating a motor vehicle with no driving license and no PR card on my person etc) entailing fines in the hundreds of dollars. I've always been proud of my Pakistani origins and never shied away from mentioning them (the origin inevitably comes up in conversations). Perhaps it's my open attitude that helps?

By the way, the patrolman didn't really do his job if he was profiling. If 'Pakistani identity' was the criteria for profiling, I would have had both individuals produce their documents, regardless of one claiming he was Indian. How did the patrolman know the other guy wasn't lying and wasn't complicit with you even if he wasn't lying?

On the other hand do u think that sometimes the host countries are somewhat responsible for the violent outburst of the immigrants? I mean especially in the gulf counties where south Asians are looked down upon and often exploited by their arab employers.

The conditions experienced by Laborers in the Gulf would absolutely play a role in stoking resentment and that could reach a boiling point and manifest itself in the form of violent and criminal behavior.

Is the violence justified?
I don't think so.
Is the violence 'understandable'?
Yes.

Violence or criminal behavior as a form of protest will not, on its own, lead to constructive change in the GCC given the local attitudes and governance structure of the GCC States. Foreign pressure (from the world's major powers, not just the countries whose citizens are impacted) on these states to reform their laws and treatment of laborers is the best approach, but their oil wealth makes it unlikely.

In the meantime the world continues to offer a pool of millions of poor men and women whose conditions at home are bad enough to justify jumping at the chance to work as laborers in the GCC, so the current lot is always replaceable and has no leverage. A grouping of the major labor providing countries that takes a unified stance and pressures the GCC to improve labor laws and treatment might also work.

 

[Magi Brahmin]

what an embarrassing "accident" for us ASIANS

 

[Saahil84]

I think you may have misunderstood my post, and I recognize that I didn't really explain a complex issue (multiple issues really) in detail, since that was not my intention.

The first question I touched upon was 'why people from countries with significantly different socio-cultural and religious dynamics (in contrast to the West) move to Western States'. My reference to 'hierarchy of needs' was made in this context, to try and explain how human behavior is 'generally' driven by the 'hierarchy of needs' theory (Maslow - google it / look it up in Wikipedia - it's pretty straighforward to understand as a theory, though application in the real world is much harder due to complexities in human behavior and impact of variables ). The most basic human needs involve survival, saftey, material security (food, economics, etc). When these basic needs are not being met (or are in danger) humans don't generally care for how different the religio-socio-cultural dynamics of their new home /destination are. India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have millions of laborers working in what essentially amount to 'indentured servitude' in the Gulf, yet more and more go to/return to the GCC countries because they feel their basic financial needs are better met there.

The second question, that I referenced in just one sentence, was that of immigrants trying to morph their adopted home into a reflection of the home they left behind. This is a much more complex issue, and the behavior of immigrants (even all Pakistani immigrants) isn't always classifiable into one category. There are some who work within the system to try and change it to conform with their religo-cultural values and others who essentially violate the laws of their new homes in attempting the same. While the latter cannot be excused, the former I see no issue with, since 'working within the system' exposes their views to open debate and discussion, which is what we need in Pakistan as well, to help shift attitudes.

This is a really well thought out post. Yes, migrants may chose to develop some support system in the foreign country to make themselves at home. South Asians have done that to a great extent in the Gulf, UK, Canada and the US. I think no one should have a problem with that. But when that leads to ghettoization, then it will increase isolation to everyone's detriment.

And yes, you used the right term, "indentured servitude", and you are also correct about this being preferable to the economic insecurity back home. Along with this semi-formal slavery, South Asians also have to tolerate the cultural hegemony of Arabs, who treat South Asians as inferior in a way that modern society has otherwise eradicated. What irks me is the way in which this Arab racism is casually dismissed by my fellow Pakistanis, as if it is a matter of pride to be ill-treated by Arabs.

I still think you are generalizing - I drove across one of the bridges into Canada (from the US) a few years ago accidentally, and as luck would have it I had forgotten my wallet at home. I turned around at the first location prior to entering Canada that I could and went through the standard US immigration aisles and explained my situation. Apart from having to look up my information in the database, there was no additional time involved and it was a very friendly experience, even with the reminders that I was violating multiple laws (operating a motor vehicle with no driving license and no PR card on my person etc) entailing fines in the hundreds of dollars. I've always been proud of my Pakistani origins and never shied away from mentioning them (the origin inevitably comes up in conversations). Perhaps it's my open attitude that helps?

By the way, the patrolman didn't really do his job if he was profiling. If 'Pakistani identity' was the criteria for profiling, I would have had both individuals produce their documents, regardless of one claiming he was Indian. How did the patrolman know the other guy wasn't lying and wasn't complicit with you even if he wasn't lying?
.

Look, anecdotal experiences run both ways...yes, I have had a few positive experiences as well. But my repeated experiences are neither due to me being thin-skinned, nor, as your subtle jibes insinuate, that I look or dress or behave in any particular manner that attracts attention. i think the thumb rule when trying to make sense of multiple sources of anecdotal reference would be to simply observe which way the balance is - for many years now Pakistanis have been the most deported people in the world. Surely, your positive experiences cannot explain that, can they?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Look, anecdotal experiences run both ways...yes, I have had a few positive experiences as well. But my repeated experiences are neither due to me being thin-skinned, nor, as your subtle jibes insinuate, that I look or dress or behave in any particular manner that attracts attention. i think the thumb rule when trying to make sense of multiple sources of anecdotal reference would be to simply observe which way the balance is - for many years now Pakistanis have been the most deported people in the world. Surely, your positive experiences cannot explain that, can they?

What are the underlying reasons for the deportations of Pakistanis and what empirical data can you provide to compare deportation numbers (and reasons behind deportation) of Pakistanis vs deportees of non-Pakistani origin?

If we really want to understand the issue properly, lets take anecdotes out of the equation entirely and just focus on the data and dissect it to understand what it really means.

 

[Saahil84]

Also, you should know something else about Crete. That place has become another migration route in the Med. Boats of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc. land up on that Island looking to press on to the mainland. Some of them get stuck in Crete for a long time. I saw quite a few Pakistanis and Bangladeshis huddled on street corners. They try to locate any they can find to put in the refugee camps. The patrolman was just doing his job, and yes, I doubt he was too bright. But his reaction is an instantaneous one - he had yet to see an Indian refugee (probably the few he did see were Sikhs, and how would he know?), but he had seen literally thousands of Pakistanis. That is the root cause of his stereotyping. Now what am I supposed to do about it? deny the obvious fact that my countrymen are making parts of his country look like the third world?

I am sorry, I cannot whip up the outrage required to deny what I see for myself.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is a really well thought out post. Yes, migrants may chose to develop some support system in the foreign country to make themselves at home. South Asians have done that to a great extent in the Gulf, UK, Canada and the US. I think no one should have a problem with that. But when that leads to ghettoization, then it will increase isolation to everyone's detriment.

And yes, you used the right term, "indentured servitude", and you are also correct about this being preferable to the economic insecurity back home. Along with this semi-formal slavery, South Asians also have to tolerate the cultural hegemony of Arabs, who treat South Asians as inferior in a way that modern society has otherwise eradicated. What irks me is the way in which this Arab racism is casually dismissed by my fellow Pakistanis, as if it is a matter of pride to be ill-treated by Arabs.

Thank you - I almost missed your response since it was hidden within my original post you quoted, but I figured you had quoted it for a reason.

I do think that Pakistani attitudes are shifting with respect to Arabs, and the most tangible manifestation of this can be seen in the official and public response to Arab demands for involvement in the Yemen conflict. Also, laborers are just one part of the Pakistani workforce in the GCC. Educated Pakistani professionals in finace, health and engineering obviously don't experience the same issues as laborers and the financial impact of their earnings is much more widespread back home in Pakistan, which insulates the GCC from negative public perceptions to some degree.

The poor are voiceless, both at home in Pakistan and away.

 

[Saahil84]

What are the underlying reasons for the deportations of Pakistanis and what empirical data can you provide to compare deportation numbers (and reasons behind deportation) of Pakistanis vs deportees of non-Pakistani origin?

If we really want to understand the issue properly, lets take anecdotes out of the equation entirely and just focus on the data and dissect it to understand what it really means.

Fair enough, no point getting waylaid by anecdotes.

I am extremely sorry they still wont allow me to post links here (mods take note), but I am pasting an article from Dawn:

ISLAMABAD: Over 250,000 illegal Pakistani immigrants have been deported back to the country between January 2009 and October 2014, according to the Foreign Office (FO).

Among these, the highest number of deportees came from Saudi Arabia, the second highest from Iran, while 36,371 were deported from the UAE.

An FO official said that most of the individuals deported from Saudi Arabia and UAE were job-seekers or businessmen, “whereas the majority of deportees from Iran are people who were using that country as a transit station, just like Greece.”

Deportations from Gulf nations, including Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman and Qatar, were attributed mainly to security-related issues in these countries.


FO data also indicates that a number of Pakistanis have been deported back from several non-traditional destinations, including Ukraine, Lithuania and Georgia.

In all, 253,894 illegal immigrants had been sent back to the country, according to data from December 2014.

To be continued...