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Iranian border guards on the Pakistan border.

Funny how pot calls the kettle black. From your side trucks full of diesel come smuggled into Pakistan and your border control cant stop that.
A human is far smaller than a truck i guess?
So you claiming that our border controls is slack is quite funny when your border control is blind to whole trucks.


So you're upset at us for providing you with a source cheap petrol?

We provide you with our cheap petrol, you provide us with your suicide bombers and sunni fanatics. Now I'm not very sharp. But even I can tell one is not like the other...
 
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Nobody cares about oil smuggling. It's the Iranian economic policies that are at fault, more than anything else. But radicalized fanatics bent on killing, beheading and sowing mayhem are another story. Allowing them to mount attacks from your territory is technically an act of aggression.
Well we care about the oil smuggling....it is costing the state of Pakistan in millions of dollars in revenues !

The radicalized fanatics are almost all residents of Iranian Balochistan.

So in the end you have Iranian citizens doing that to your soldiers.
 
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Nobody cares about oil smuggling. It's the Iranian economic policies that are at fault, more than anything else. But radicalized fanatics bent on killing, beheading and sowing mayhem are another story. Allowing them to mount attacks from your territory is technically an act of aggression.
Hang on a minute. If Iran does not care aboit truck loads of their oil being smuggled into Pakistan which funds criminal gangs and resultant crimes and deaths in Pakistan, and Iran border guards, oil wells and all sorts of organizations from oil wells to highway police to border guards are unwilling or incapable to stop those trucks. Why you expect us to care if same gangs go inside iran, kidnap someone and then kill?
 
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Well we care about the oil smuggling....it is costing the state of Pakistan in millions of dollars in revenues !

The radicalized fanatics are almost all residents of Iranian Balochistan.

So in the end you have Iranian citizens doing that to your soldiers.

How is it costing the state of Pakistan and how do you measure it?

And how can they be the residents of Iran when they're coming over from Pakistan?
 
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How is it costing the state of Pakistan and how do you measure it?

And how can they be the residents of Iran when they're coming over from Pakistan?
24 billion smuggled Iranian oil confiscated, NA told - Daily The Patriot

That is just the confiscated one.

This is about 240 million dollars.....the amount going in undetected would be atleast 5 times this.

So you think the smuggling of goods across international borders is good ???

Wow !!!

Maybe all countries need to adopt this !

Also take a look at all those leaders of Jundullah....the Riggi guy all of them from Iranian Balochistan.
 
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How is it costing the state of Pakistan and how do you measure it?

And how can they be the residents of Iran when they're coming over from Pakistan?
Now you are being a joker. Even if they are Pakistanis. Iran is so lame that a big *** truck can drive deep into Iran unchecked. Go tap into an oil depot...unchecked... Drive back on the highway....unchecked.. then cross border into Pakistan... Unchecked? Pretty lame i say.
 
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Hang on a minute. If Iran does not care aboit truck loads of their oil being smuggled into Pakistan which funds criminal gangs and resultant crimes and deaths in Pakistan, and Iran border guards, oil wells and all sorts of organizations from oil wells to highway police to border guards are unwilling or incapable to stop those trucks. Why you expect us to care if same gangs go inside iran, kidnap someone and then kill?

Because the moon is not made out of cheese. Because petrol is not usually associated with violent gangs and doesn't leave large swaths of your society debilitated. You either put it in your car to drive and burn it to keep warm. Because petrol, unlike drugs doesn't come almost free and has to still be bought at competitive prices and sold at below market prices. So it doesn't make you the astronomical profits that drugs do.

So your theatrics aside, petrol trafficking is a lot more benign than hard drugs and crazed fanatics that are out there to kill your neighbour.

24 billion smuggled Iranian oil confiscated, NA told - Daily The Patriot

That is just the confiscated one.

This is about 240 million dollars.....the amount going in undetected would be atleast 5 times this.

So you think the smuggling of goods across international borders is good ???

Wow !!!

Maybe all countries need to adopt this !

Also take a look at all those leaders of Jundullah....the Riggi guy all of them from Iranian Balochistan.

Let's not get dramatic here. That's the value of the contraband merchandise. To my knowledge, petrol is not an illegal substance in Pakistan. So what you need to look at here the amount of lost revenue in taxes. So how much was the Pakistani government out in taxes?

And what does it say about Pakistan, if it's providing safe haven Iranian outlaws and murderers and criminal gangs? It doesn't really make things much better, does it?
 
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Because the moon is not made out of cheese. Because petrol is not usually associated with violent gangs and doesn't leave large swaths of your society debilitated. You either put it in your car to drive and burn it to keep warm. Because petrol, unlike drugs doesn't come almost free and has to still be bought at competitive prices and sold at below market prices. So it doesn't make you the astronomical profits that drugs do.

So your theatrics aside, petrol trafficking is a lot more benign than hard drugs and crazed fanatics that are out there to kill your neighbour.
Drugs come from Afghanistan, not Pakistan.
And the 240 million USD worth of oil that comes from your
Because the moon is not made out of cheese. Because petrol is not usually associated with violent gangs and doesn't leave large swaths of your society debilitated. You either put it in your car to drive and burn it to keep warm. Because petrol, unlike drugs doesn't come almost free and has to still be bought at competitive prices and sold at below market prices. So it doesn't make you the astronomical profits that drugs do.

So your theatrics aside, petrol trafficking is a lot more benign than hard drugs and crazed fanatics that are out there to kill your neighbour.
Ok let me answer you step by step. First thing Baloch people of Iran Pakistan Border areas are not that religious. If you go to Awaran , Taftan and other border areas you will find mosques empty and people not keeping fast in Ramazan. So your assumption that they are religious fanatics is wrong.

Second thing is the smuggled oil you are so trying hard to justify earns hundreds of millions of dollars for war lords and criminal gangs of Pakistani Balochustan. So its readonable to say that whatever crimes they commit in Pakistan or Iran is actually funded by Iranian oil money.
And can recruit well paid gunmen, buy best weapon and buy officials.
So that puts Iran as main cause of trouble.
Iranian oil smuggling stops. Funding will stop and gangs will go weak, and troubles will disappear.

And drugs come from Afghanistan not Pakistan.

Iranian chest thumping wont do any good.
 
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Now you are being a joker. Even if they are Pakistanis. Iran is so lame that a big *** truck can drive deep into Iran unchecked. Go tap into an oil depot...unchecked... Drive back on the highway....unchecked.. then cross border into Pakistan... Unchecked? Pretty lame i say.

For god's sake, because selling petrol is not illegal in Iran!!! Now unless you're ready to tell me that drug trafficking and terrorist activities are also not illegal in Pakistan, the two are not analogous with one another.....
 
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Let's not get dramatic here. That's the value of the contraband merchandise. To my knowledge, petrol is not an illegal substance in Pakistan. So what you need to look at here the amount of lost revenue in taxes. So how much was the Pakistani government out in taxes?

And what does it say about Pakistan, if it's providing safe haven Iranian outlaws and murderers and criminal gangs? It doesn't really make things much better, does it?
Why are you not getting it ???

OK let me explain in simpler words

Bad people smuggle oil from Iran

Bad people become rich as a result of this

Bad people who are now Rich Bad people than fund their criminal enterprise using this wealth
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So across the border we have Iranian oil being smuggled
Afghan drug trade taking place
Iranian citizens involved in terrorist activities
 
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Drugs come from Afghanistan, not Pakistan.
And the 240 million USD worth of oil that comes from your

Ok let me answer you step by step. First thing Baloch people of Iran Pakistan Border areas are not that religious. If you go to Awaran , Taftan and other border areas you will find mosques empty and people not keeping fast in Ramazan. So your assumption that they are religious fanatics is wrong.

Second thing is the smuggled oil you are so trying hard to justify earns hundreds of millions of dollars for war lords and criminal gangs of Pakistani Balochustan. So its readonable to say that whatever crimes they commit in Pakistan or Iran is actually funded by Iranian oil money.
And can recruit well paid gunmen, buy best weapon and buy officials.
So that puts Iran as main cause of trouble.
Iranian oil smuggling stops. Funding will stop and gangs will go weak, and troubles will disappear.

And drugs come from Afghanistan not Pakistan.

Iranian chest thumping wont do any good.

And Pakistani braindeadness either...

For the last time, the $230 (and not $240) isn't the net profit these gangs pocket. That's the market value of the merchandise, according to your government's estimate, which like governments everywhere is expected to be on high side, when dealing with losses.

The petrol was already bought at a substantial price in Iran and expected to be sold below market price, for people to be interested in buying it. So the smugglers' net profit, eventhough in the millions, is far less than what you'r making it out to be.

That's what makes your comparisons childish. It's like saying, well you're not perfect either, so it's ok for me to kill you. There's no sense of proportionality in your views.

Why are you not getting it ???

OK let me explain in simpler words

Bad people smuggle oil from Iran

Bad people become rich as a result of this

Bad people who are now Rich Bad people than fund their criminal enterprise using this wealth
.
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So across the border we have Iranian oil being smuggled
Afghan drug trade taking place
Iranian citizens involved in terrorist activities

Like I told your friend, there's no sense of proportionality in your arguments. Buying petrol from Iran, which by the way is a totally legal act, and selling it in Pakistan at a profit is the same for you as turning a blind eye to the drug traffic and harbouring foreign movements engaged in attacks against your neighbor. That's the simplistic reductionist argument of most Pakistanis I've encountered on this site...
 
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And Pakistani braindeadness either...

For the last time, the $230 (and not $240) isn't the net profit these gangs pocket. That's the market value of the merchandise, according to your government's estimate, which like governments everywhere is expected to be on high side, when dealing with losses.

The petrol was already bought at a substantial price in Iran and expected to be sold below market price, for people to be interested in buying it. So the smugglers' net profit, eventhough in the millions, is far less than what you'r making it out to be.

That's what makes your comparisons childish. It's like saying, well you're not perfect either, so it's ok for me to kill you. There's no sense of proportionality in your views.



Like I told your friend, there's no sense of proportionality in your arguments. Buying petrol from Iran, which by the way is a totally legal act, and selling it in Pakistan at a profit is the same for you as turning a blind eye to the drug traffic and harbouring foreign movements engaged in attacks against your neighbor. That's the simplistic reductionist argument of most Pakistanis I've encountered on this site...
Now ypu are down playing the effects of Iran turning a blind eye towards oil,tyres and lkts if other goods being smuggled into Pakistan.

I will be repeating myself, but here we go again. That Iranian oil and goods is the main source of funding for gangs of Balochistan and unless that source of funding is not stopped, not much can be done. It will remain upto the gangs what they do of the Iranisn money. Spend it to settle scores with a business partner on Iranian side by killin them or to buy rockets to fire at Iranian border guards, so that source of funding has to be stopped and only Iran can do that.

And Pakistani braindeadness either...

For the last time, the $230 (and not $240) isn't the net profit these gangs pocket. That's the market value of the merchandise, according to your government's estimate, which like governments everywhere is expected to be on high side, when dealing with losses.

The petrol was already bought at a substantial price in Iran and expected to be sold below market price, for people to be interested in buying it. So the smugglers' net profit, eventhough in the millions, is far less than what you'r making it out to be.

That's what makes your comparisons childish. It's like saying, well you're not perfect either, so it's ok for me to kill you. There's no sense of proportionality in your views.



Like I told your friend, there's no sense of proportionality in your arguments. Buying petrol from Iran, which by the way is a totally legal act, and selling it in Pakistan at a profit is the same for you as turning a blind eye to the drug traffic and harbouring foreign movements engaged in attacks against your neighbor. That's the simplistic reductionist argument of most Pakistanis I've encountered on this site...
Now ypu are down playing the effects of Iran turning a blind eye towards oil,tyres and lkts if other goods being smuggled into Pakistan.

I will be repeating myself, but here we go again. That Iranian oil and goods is the main source of funding for gangs of Balochistan and unless that source of funding is not stopped, not much can be done. It will remain upto the gangs what they do of the Iranisn money. Spend it to settle scores with a business partner on Iranian side by killin them or to buy rockets to fire at Iranian border guards, so that source of funding has to be stopped and only Iran can do that.

So basically any tom dick and harry can drive a truck into Iran and just buy oil without any checks of legal entry such as visa, or a registeted company and tax details? And where the oil is going ?
Pretty lame and i dont think any other oil exporting country does that?
 
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And Pakistani braindeadness either...

For the last time, the $230 (and not $240) isn't the net profit these gangs pocket. That's the market value of the merchandise, according to your government's estimate, which like governments everywhere is expected to be on high side, when dealing with losses.

The petrol was already bought at a substantial price in Iran and expected to be sold below market price, for people to be interested in buying it. So the smugglers' net profit, eventhough in the millions, is far less than what you'r making it out to be.

That's what makes your comparisons childish. It's like saying, well you're not perfect either, so it's ok for me to kill you. There's no sense of proportionality in your views.



Like I told your friend, there's no sense of proportionality in your arguments. Buying petrol from Iran, which by the way is a totally legal act, and selling it in Pakistan at a profit is the same for you as turning a blind eye to the drug traffic and harbouring foreign movements engaged in attacks against your neighbor. That's the simplistic reductionist argument of most Pakistanis I've encountered on this site...

Ah, cut it out with these guys. They are ignorant. I have been to both sides of this border. And I have seen it with my own eyes. The situation of Pakistani side of border is horrible and completely out of the control of Pakistani state. Even Pakistanis themselves are scared inside their own border. You can not compare the internal security of Pakistan to that of Iran.

Even deep inside Pakistani territory, the conditions are worse than on the border. An area called Kashmore deep inside Pakistani Baluchistan, through which I drove is basically a place right out of the movie "Wrong Turn". Heavily armed Pakistani police with machine gun totting APC's had to escort convoys of passenger vehicles just to make one side of the country connected with another. You would not even see such things in Mexico or Colombia. And even then the police and passengers on the road were scared to death of the bandits. Upon my inquiry of who these bandits were, I was told they are basically on the payroll of the feudal lords of the area who not only have their own personal armies but also personal courts and even personal prisons full of people they punish in their own personal capacity. You can basically consider it as a lawless region beyond Iran's border.

And I do not think it will ever get better in our life times. Since the roots of this lawlessness is deeper and is in history wherein bandits were handed over political power and exclusive economic rights over large swaths of land by British in return for their loyalty. Iran should not have any illusion that things will get better whether in Pakistan or in Afghanistan or in Iraq or in Turkey or elsewhere. Iran should go ahead and secure the border on its own terms and with its own responsibility.

Please accept my apology. I think you already my position in regards to Iran. I am as pro Iran as a non Iranian you will find. What I was saying is and maybe I did a poor job at doing this, that Pakistan poses no military threat to Iran. Our history proves it. You have NEVER been attacked from the east and I can't see that happening in future either.

All the military systems in particular nuclear are pointed firmly in one direction ONLY. I think you already know where. If you look at Pakistan Army of 500,000 men almost 400,000 are on the Indian border. About 100,000 are on Afghan border. Almost ZERO on the Iranian border. Same for airforce.

What we do have is law and order problem. Bandits, drug dealers and terrorists like Jundulla and I support Iran's efforets to get a grip on the border areas. I think in Pakistan we are also going to tighten up law and order on our side of the border. To be honest the problem is on our side. If we can get a grip on our side the entire border area will stabilze.

My reply was to the guy suggesting that Pakistan was a threat - he referred to some IIRGC commander saying about threat from "east".

Anyway I wish the best to Iran in securing the border area.


* On the subject of nukes I support Iran getting them. Nukes are not a offensive weapon. They are primarily defensive. They assure you deterance from any major threats.

Thank you bro. I know what is in your heart and I do appreciate it. One good thing through which a long term stability can be expected to be delivered in this region, is if this pipeline gets built. Since the economic benefit of the pipeline will force both nations to secure and upgrade the border. Since it would have economic benefits then and failure to do so will have economic costs felt by all sides and the people.

Iran already was a big believer in this pipeline, that is why Iran built it to Pakistan's border. But unfortunately not much has happened on Pakistan's side. It is really sad.
 
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Ah, cut it out with these guys. They are ignorant. I have been to both sides of this border. And I have seen it with my own eyes. The situation of Pakistani side of border is horrible and completely out of the control of Pakistani state. Even Pakistanis themselves are scared inside their own border. You can not compare the internal security of Pakistan to that of Iran.

Even deep inside Pakistani territory, the conditions are worse than on the border. An area called Kashmore deep inside Pakistani Baluchistan, through which I drove is basically a place right out of the movie "Wrong Turn". Heavily armed Pakistani police with machine gun totting APC's had to escort convoys of passenger vehicles just to make one side of the country connected with another. You would not even see such things in Mexico or Colombia. And even then the police and passengers on the road were scared to death of the bandits. Upon my inquiry of who these bandits were, I was told they are basically on the payroll of the feudal lords of the area who not only have their own personal armies but also personal courts and even personal prisons full of people they punish in their own personal capacity. You can basically consider it as a lawless region beyond Iran's border.

And I do not think it will ever get better in our life times. Since the roots of this lawlessness is deeper and is in history wherein bandits were handed over political power and exclusive economic rights over large swaths of land by British in return for their loyalty. Iran should not have any illusion that things will get better whether in Pakistan or in Afghanistan or in Iraq or in Turkey or elsewhere. Iran should go ahead and secure the border on its own terms and with its own responsibility.



Thank you bro. I know what is in your heart and I do appreciate it. One good thing through which a long term stability can be expected to be delivered in this region, is if this pipeline gets built. Since the economic benefit of the pipeline will force both nations to secure and upgrade the border. Since it would have economic benefits then and failure to do so will have economic costs felt by all sides and the people.

Iran already was a big believer in this pipeline, that is why Iran built it to Pakistan's border. But unfortunately not much has happened on Pakistan's side. It is really sad.

:lol: this thread is becoming more and more entertaining.
So you saw how much law enforcement and heavy armed presence of Law enforcement agencies we have from borders to deep inside the province. You saw it yourself?
So is it a laughing matter as you portray it or matter of praise that how serious Pakistan is about controlling Baloch drug/war/smuggling gang lords?

But same is not true for Iran. Too easy to drive in with a truck, buy oil for smuggling and along the way carry drugs .
So now that you an Iraniam has provided eye witness account that Pakistan has enough armed presence, its Iran who needs to do more.
 
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@bozorgmehr @Daneshmand

Thank you both for your detailed responses. You have clarified your point of views very well, and I have now a much better understanding of your perspective.

Please understand that our end goal is the same (a more secure Iran), it is only our paths to that end that are different. But that's normal.

Instead of replying point by point to the comments, which might move as furthur and further away from each of our main points, let me just restate the discussion, and where I stand.

You both believe that more resources allocated to border security will resolve Iran's border issues.

My perspective is that, if we look at it in a cost-profit method, it would be ultimately an expense that could be better spend elsewhere which will better result in security.

I'm going to ignore the drug & smuggling trade for now, to keep the discussion as focused and narrow as possible.

Iran's border attack due to terrorism is generally one or two incidents per year. I am not convinced that mass allocation of resources in this 900 kms, can prevent turn this into zero. All it would take is 2-3 people from the other side to find a weak spot in the 900 kms, and slip through.

Now let's look at this from another perspective. We'll use randomly made up numbers just to get my point across, obviously the numbers mean nothing at this stage.

Let's first start with the hypothesis that no wall at this stage can reduce threat to 0%. We haven't yet seen 0% in any wall in other country, so I can't imagine a scenario where it would be possible. A tunnel, for example, is a low cost solution of bypassing walls that citizens in various countries have used and are using.

Okay, if we agree on that hypothesis, then let's say our current situation is as follows:
Terrorists Per Year: 100
Current Border Control Stops: 10%
Terrorists entering the land: 90

Now let's say we implement a new plan and 200 million Dollar Expense per Year will reduce threats by 70%. So we have,
Plan A
Terrorists Per Year: 100
Current Border Control Stops: 70%
Terrorists entering the land: 30

This obviously looks like an outstanding success. However, my argument is that the same 200 million can be used in a way to, instead of increasing the percentage of border stops, we reduce the number of terrorists. So, mine would look like, for example,

Plan B
Terrorists Per Year: 30
Current Border Control Stops: 10%
Terrorists entering the land: 27

So, this is what I mean. That the money should be focused on the first figure, not the second figure. Because if we implement Plan A, then that percentage of 70% will remain, but year by year, the terrorists will increase. So in 10 years, we will have,

Plan A in 10 Years
Terrorists Per Year: 1000
Current Border Control Stops: 70%
Terrorists entering the land: 300

Even if we keep increasing the percentage, to lets say 90%, we will have
Plan A in 10 Years with Better Security
Terrorists Per Year: 1000
Current Border Control Stops: 90%
Terrorists entering the land: 100

On the other hand, if we keep reducing the terrorists from 100 to 30 to less, and keeping the same the same security percentage, we will still have a better final figure,

Plan B in 10 Years
Terrorists Per Year: 10
Current Border Control Stops: 10%
Terrorists entering the land: 9

In the end, with a super advanced border security that stops 90%, we will have 100 attacks per year, while with a low security (10%) but high concentration on reducing tensions, we will have only 9 attacks.

I hope this better explains my take on the matter. Obviously, the numbers are made up, but it should at least clarify where I am coming from.
 
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