Iran Not to Forgive Perpetrators of Attack on Iran Air Flight 655

[Arminkh]

There is no comparision between the systematic industrial rounding up and killing of 6 million jews on a rascial basis and the shooting down of Iran flight 665. The fact that you even make that comparison informs me you are a bigot.


No, KAL007 (jeez', how hard is it to comprehend?)

Ok, so in your moral system, if a crime against defenseless people is larger than a certain threshold, then their families and fellow country men have the right to keep that memory and grudge alive. Otherwise they should move on with their business?

You can call me a bigot as much as you like. I'm just asking you questions.

My best guess is that Penguin has some sort of moral issue with Iran holding a grudge, or that he genuinely doesn't want Iranians to express their anger in this forum (respectable but unavoidable by nature).

That is exactly case and I'm trying to help him realize that we are not doing anything wrong here. But he or she keeps avoiding the question.

So is there a magic number for the number of people that have to be killed for us to remember it then? Is 290 people not enough? Maybe you are the bigoted one, telling us to forget 290 murdered people, as if they are worth nothing. Sorry to say but I will remember them, I will not forgive the murderers, and I will live 1 more second of my life in which I don't hate those bastards... and if that makes me, Arminkh, or anyone else bigoted, then so fucking be it.

Oh my god! I just replied the same thing to him before I read your comment!

 

[Fafnir]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997274,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997275,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997277,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997278,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997279,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997280,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997282,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997283,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997285,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997286,00.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-04-12/news/mn-1752_1_east-germany

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/weekinreview/20jburns.html



Nobody was calling for revenge when you turned up in this thread.



Also, there is a big difference between stating you will exact revenge, versus you will seek justice for their deaths. That should be clear even to you.



Hundreds of people were killed and the US covered it up and denied it to the point that they were even blaming Iran for them shooting down our airliner.

Both the Holocaust and IR655 were massacres.

However the Holocaust has gotten much more coverage for both right and wrong reasons. We have holocaust remembrance day, Germany still subsidises Israel's military to this day, not to mention Israel was formed with much of the suffering it brought to the Palestinians ignored, their stockpile of nuclear weapons ignored etc.

But it doesn't mean that because the Holocaust was a more significant event, we can ignore IR655 and not compare them.

Bloody Sunday warranted an apology and only 14 people died that day? Are British lives more valuable than Iranian lives? Surely if Iran doesn't deserve and apology but Northern Island does, you are bigoted.

Well said Amir!,I honestly dont think I could have said it any better myself

Your last point stands and is fair but did you accuse me of being a bigot? Do you even know what being a bigot is?

I just question the 6 million number not the actual holocaust itself. This is just human curiosity on my part, I'm entitled to questions things.

Watch it there buddy,you`re getting dangerously close to a...THOUGHT CRIME!!!!

 

[Blue In Green]

Well said Amir!,I honestly dont think I could have said it any better myself


Watch it there buddy,you`re getting dangerously close to a...THOUGHT CRIME!!!!

lmao, everything should be questioned and talked about freely. But I don't think Penguin is acting out of spite or malice.

 

[Penguin]

Ok, so in your moral system, if a crime against defenseless people is larger than a certain threshold, then their families and fellow country men have the right to keep that memory and grudge alive. Otherwise they should move on with their business?

You can call me a bigot as much as you like. I'm just asking you questions.

You're stuck again on a number, which I already indicated is irrelevant. Do you have to keep trying to put words in my mouth at every turn? You know very well what I meant.

I just question the 6 million number not the actual holocaust itself. This is just human curiosity on my part, I'm entitled to questions things.

You can question all you like, but that doesn't mean you are right. Esp. if witness statements, archive material and historians worldwide show otherwise. I'm not even going to being discussing this further. As it is insulting not just to the victims (which does not solely include Jews - just mainly - but also - if to a far lesser extent - Roma, mentally and fysically handicapped and - in essence - slavic peoples (untermenschen) as examplified by e.g. the treatment of Russian and other Eastern European POWs. I am not for attempting to rewrite history to fit my worldview.

 

[Penguin]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997274,00.html

Right e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/10322295

Nobody was calling for revenge when you turned up in this thread.

Also, there is a big difference between stating you will exact revenge, versus you will seek justice for their deaths. That should be clear even to you.

All I posted in #3 is "And so WE (Dutch) will not forgive those that brought down MH17. And there are others who feel similar about PanAm flight 103 or KAL 858, Kall 007, and KAL 902. And on and on it goes."
Which, apparently is unforgivable. Just like the Americans.

Perhaps you should look at post #7 again?
"This terrorist attack shows how deep their hatred is. How black their hearts are.
They're not humans. They're not even animals
They're evil incarnate
But they're messing with the wrong people
God knows that we'll take revenge...."

Hundreds of people were killed and the US covered it up and denied it to the point that they were even blaming Iran for them shooting down our airliner.

I never denied Iran flight 655 happened, or who opened fire, so I don't see your point here. Also, the US did not cover it up. Witness the earlier use/reference to AEGIS recordtapes in this thread: this would not be possible if there had been a coverup (the US Navy investigation yielded these records).

Both the Holocaust and IR655 were massacres.

Yes. But that doesn't make them the same in terms of how, why and on what scale they came about.

However the Holocaust has gotten much more coverage for both right and wrong reasons. We have holocaust remembrance day, Germany still subsidises Israel's military to this day, not to mention Israel was formed with much of the suffering it brought to the Palestinians ignored, their stockpile of nuclear weapons ignored etc.

I'm sure no Israeli's were hurt in the proces? In fact, many individuals, organisations and governments acknowlege the Palestinian suffering, which translate to - among other things - aid to Palestinians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

It is also not correct that Isreal's nuclear arsenal is ignored:

Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons and to be the sixth country in the world to have developed them, allegedly having built its first deliverable nuclear weapon in December 1966 based on scientific and industrial cooperation with pre-nuclear France.
It is one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT); the others being India, Pakistan, and North Korea.
Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity"). Israel has never officially denied nor admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.
The "not be the first" formulation goes back to the Eshkol-Comer (sic) memorandum of understanding made between Israel and the United States on March 10, 1965, which contained Israel's written assurance for the first time that it would not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Israel has refused to sign the NPT despite international pressure to do so, and has stated that signing the NPT would be contrary to its national security interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

But it doesn't mean that because the Holocaust was a more significant event, we can ignore IR655 and not compare them.

Nobody ignored IR655. And apart from the fact that innocent people were killed, the Holocaust and IR655 are completely incomparable events.

Bloody Sunday warranted an apology and only 14 people died that day? Are British lives more valuable than Iranian lives? Surely if Iran doesn't deserve and apology but Northern Island does, you are bigoted.

I've never stated anything about who does or doesn't DESERVE an apology.
So again, putting words in my mouth that I didn't use.

bigot

1. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
   

Clearly, that never was, is not and never will be me.

I have to get to work now. Good day.

There you have it. Now we're getting to the meat and bones of this discussion which is Western exceptionalism.

Exceptionalism?

Claims of exceptionality have been made for many countries, including Australia, France, Germany, Greece, India, Pakistan, Imperial Japan, Iran, Israel, North Korea, South Africa, Spain, Britain, the United States, the USSR, the European Union, and Thailand.

The German romantic philosopher-historians, especially Johann Gottfried Herder (1744–1803) and Johann Gottlieb Fichte (1762–1814), dwelt on the theme of uniqueness in the late 18th century.
They de-emphasized the political state and instead emphasized the uniqueness of the Volk, comprising the whole people, their languages and traditions.
Each nation, considered as a cultural entity with its own distinctive history, possessed a "national spirit", or "soul of the people" (in German: Volksgeist). This idea had a strong influence in the growth of nationalism in 19th-century European lands—especially in ones ruled by élites from somewhere else.

I'm sure none of the above applies to Iran? Persia?

 

[Blue In Green]

Right e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/10322295



All I posted in #3 is "And so WE (Dutch) will not forgive those that brought down MH17. And there are others who feel similar about PanAm flight 103 or KAL 858, Kall 007, and KAL 902. And on and on it goes."
Which, apparently is unforgivable. Just like the Americans.

Perhaps you should look at post #7 again?
"This terrorist attack shows how deep their hatred is. How black their hearts are.
They're not humans. They're not even animals
They're evil incarnate
But they're messing with the wrong people
God knows that we'll take revenge...."


I never denied Iran flight 655 happened, or who opened fire, so I don't see your point here. Also, the US did not cover it up. Witness the earlier use/reference to AEGIS recordtapes in this thread: this would not be possible if there had been a coverup (the US Navy investigation yielded these records).


Yes. But that doesn't make them the same in terms of how, why and on what scale they came about.


I'm sure no Israeli's were hurt in the proces? In fact, many individuals, organisations and governments acknowlege the Palestinian suffering, which translate to - among other things - aid to Palestinians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

It is also not correct that Isreal's nuclear arsenal is ignored:

Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons and to be the sixth country in the world to have developed them, allegedly having built its first deliverable nuclear weapon in December 1966 based on scientific and industrial cooperation with pre-nuclear France.
It is one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT); the others being India, Pakistan, and North Korea.
Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity"). Israel has never officially denied nor admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.
The "not be the first" formulation goes back to the Eshkol-Comer (sic) memorandum of understanding made between Israel and the United States on March 10, 1965, which contained Israel's written assurance for the first time that it would not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Israel has refused to sign the NPT despite international pressure to do so, and has stated that signing the NPT would be contrary to its national security interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel


Nobody ignored IR655. And apart from the fact that innocent people were killed, the Holocaust and IR655 are completely incomparable events.


I've never stated anything about who does or doesn't DESERVE an apology.
So again, putting words in my mouth that I didn't use.

bigot

1. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Clearly, that never was, is not and never will be me.

I have to get to work now. Good day.


Exceptionalism?

Claims of exceptionality have been made for many countries, including Australia, France, Germany, Greece, India, Pakistan, Imperial Japan, Iran, Israel, North Korea, South Africa, Spain, Britain, the United States, the USSR, the European Union, and Thailand.

The German romantic philosopher-historians, especially Johann Gottfried Herder (1744–1803) and Johann Gottlieb Fichte (1762–1814), dwelt on the theme of uniqueness in the late 18th century.
They de-emphasized the political state and instead emphasized the uniqueness of the Volk, comprising the whole people, their languages and traditions.
Each nation, considered as a cultural entity with its own distinctive history, possessed a "national spirit", or "soul of the people" (in German: Volksgeist). This idea had a strong influence in the growth of nationalism in 19th-century European lands—especially in ones ruled by élites from somewhere else.

I'm sure none of the above applies to Iran? Persia?

Making a mountain out of a molehill.....Just let the Iranians lament over the wrongful death of their citizens.

 

[raptor22]

Right e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/10322295



All I posted in #3 is "And so WE (Dutch) will not forgive those that brought down MH17. And there are others who feel similar about PanAm flight 103 or KAL 858, Kall 007, and KAL 902. And on and on it goes."
Which, apparently is unforgivable. Just like the Americans.

Perhaps you should look at post #7 again?
"This terrorist attack shows how deep their hatred is. How black their hearts are.
They're not humans. They're not even animals
They're evil incarnate
But they're messing with the wrong people
God knows that we'll take revenge...."


I never denied Iran flight 655 happened, or who opened fire, so I don't see your point here. Also, the US did not cover it up. Witness the earlier use/reference to AEGIS recordtapes in this thread: this would not be possible if there had been a coverup (the US Navy investigation yielded these records).


Yes. But that doesn't make them the same in terms of how, why and on what scale they came about.


I'm sure no Israeli's were hurt in the proces? In fact, many individuals, organisations and governments acknowlege the Palestinian suffering, which translate to - among other things - aid to Palestinians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

It is also not correct that Isreal's nuclear arsenal is ignored:

Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons and to be the sixth country in the world to have developed them, allegedly having built its first deliverable nuclear weapon in December 1966 based on scientific and industrial cooperation with pre-nuclear France.
It is one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT); the others being India, Pakistan, and North Korea.
Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity"). Israel has never officially denied nor admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.
The "not be the first" formulation goes back to the Eshkol-Comer (sic) memorandum of understanding made between Israel and the United States on March 10, 1965, which contained Israel's written assurance for the first time that it would not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Israel has refused to sign the NPT despite international pressure to do so, and has stated that signing the NPT would be contrary to its national security interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel


Nobody ignored IR655. And apart from the fact that innocent people were killed, the Holocaust and IR655 are completely incomparable events.


I've never stated anything about who does or doesn't DESERVE an apology.
So again, putting words in my mouth that I didn't use.

bigot

1. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Clearly, that never was, is not and never will be me.

I have to get to work now. Good day.


Exceptionalism?

Claims of exceptionality have been made for many countries, including Australia, France, Germany, Greece, India, Pakistan, Imperial Japan, Iran, Israel, North Korea, South Africa, Spain, Britain, the United States, the USSR, the European Union, and Thailand.

The German romantic philosopher-historians, especially Johann Gottfried Herder (1744–1803) and Johann Gottlieb Fichte (1762–1814), dwelt on the theme of uniqueness in the late 18th century.
They de-emphasized the political state and instead emphasized the uniqueness of the Volk, comprising the whole people, their languages and traditions.
Each nation, considered as a cultural entity with its own distinctive history, possessed a "national spirit", or "soul of the people" (in German: Volksgeist). This idea had a strong influence in the growth of nationalism in 19th-century European lands—especially in ones ruled by élites from somewhere else.

I'm sure none of the above applies to Iran? Persia?

But I do think that flight 655 was shot down intentionally to put pressure on Iran to end the war alongside targeting Iranian oil platforms and warships while American were well aware of this fact that which side started the war and therefore which side should have got back to the recognized international borders ....

 

[Cthulhu]

And this is how it always starts, by demonizing and dehumanizing. Equating people with ' lesser lifeforms'.
Before you know it, you've created the environment where it doesn't matter that you kill the other, it is ok because 'they are not human'. In Europe, we've seen where that can lead. In our colonies, in WW2 in all of Europe and in former Yugoslavia.

So, you cling to your revenge lust now and have a very nice day.

L

In christianity you must let forgive no matter what or you go to hell:

Consider Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him."

Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.

The upshot? If someone isn’t repentant, you don’t have to forgive him.

What about when they accidentally overthrew Mossadegh and put a dictator in place?
What about when they accidentally helped Saddam Hussein gas Iranians?
Does Bible has any moral recommendations on what to do then?

 

[ValerioAurelius]

What about when they accidentally overthrew Mossadegh and put a dictator in place?
What about when they accidentally helped Saddam Hussein gas Iranians?
Does Bible has any moral recommendations on what to do then?

The people who overthrew Mossadegh are long dead.

Iran helped Assad gassing his own people.

Thats the reason why i find this " death to america" so disgusting. You can hate the individual person who ordered or did something. You can never and under no way hate a nation. America (which is a continent btw) is a wonderful nation. USA is full of awesome people who do great things on a daily base.

No doubt that Iran like any other nation has great things and people. But as evry other nation Iran also has disgusting habits. One is this hateful speeches which wish death to others.

 

[AmirPatriot]

Right e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/10322295

Right.

"The government is ultimately responsible for the conduct of the armed forces and for that, on behalf of the government, indeed, on behalf of our country, I am deeply sorry."

And just to remind you and the readers of how many times states have apologised (not just once).

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997274,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997275,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997277,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997278,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997279,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997280,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997282,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997283,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997285,00.html

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1997272_1997273_1997286,00.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-04-12/news/mn-1752_1_east-germany

Perhaps you should look at post #7 again?
"This terrorist attack shows how deep their hatred is. How black their hearts are.
They're not humans. They're not even animals
They're evil incarnate
But they're messing with the wrong people
God knows that we'll take revenge...."

What is there to look at? Haman feels rightfully angry, and while I don't agree with what he wants I sympathise with his feelings.

And his comment was after you butted into the thread.

Nobody ignored IR655.

Most Americans haven't even heard about IR 655. Whereas most of them can go into a furious rage at the mention of "soviet" and "airliner" in the same sentence.

The world largely ignored IR655.

The world boycotted, sanctioned, condemned, and isolated the Soviets when they shot down KAL007.

The world didn't even get close to doing any of those things in even the slightest way when the US shot down IR655.

Such is the power of US propaganda and influence.

I'm sure no Israeli's were hurt in the proces? In fact, many individuals, organisations and governments acknowlege the Palestinian suffering, which translate to - among other things - aid to Palestinians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

It is also not correct that Isreal's nuclear arsenal is ignored:

Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons and to be the sixth country in the world to have developed them, allegedly having built its first deliverable nuclear weapon in December 1966 based on scientific and industrial cooperation with pre-nuclear France.
It is one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT); the others being India, Pakistan, and North Korea.
Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity"). Israel has never officially denied nor admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.
The "not be the first" formulation goes back to the Eshkol-Comer (sic) memorandum of understanding made between Israel and the United States on March 10, 1965, which contained Israel's written assurance for the first time that it would not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Israel has refused to sign the NPT despite international pressure to do so, and has stated that signing the NPT would be contrary to its national security interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Ignore doesn't mean "deny that something exists", in this particular case Israel's stockpile of nuclear weapons is ignored by the international community, by which I mean it has issued no sanctions, condemnation or isolation for Israel for building nukes, or not signing the NPT. You can thank Uncle Sam for that.

I never denied Iran flight 655 happened, or who opened fire, so I don't see your point here. Also, the US did not cover it up. Witness the earlier use/reference to AEGIS recordtapes in this thread: this would not be possible if there had been a coverup (the US Navy investigation yielded these records).

They covered up the facts, initially at the very least. They said the IR 655 was descending (it was ascending), they said it was at 9,000 ft (12,000 ft), they said the Vincennes was in international waters (it was in Iranian territorial waters) at the time of the shootdown. Lies, lies, and more lies, and I can find more lies if you wish. The worthless parasites even blamed the Iranian pilot.

Only until years later, when the world had, for all practical purposes, completely forgotten IR655 (and they didn't need years, or even months really), did the US release more facts in their reports (though still riddled with propaganda and still more lies).

And they are still hiding the truth.

Yes. But that doesn't make them the same in terms of how, why and on what scale they came about.

Nobody said they were the same.

I've never stated anything about who does or doesn't DESERVE an apology.
So again, putting words in my mouth that I didn't use.

bigot

1. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Clearly, that never was, is not and never will be me.

Thanks for the definition. Now you've read it, you can watch your tongue when you are talking to @Arminkh and @BlueInGreen2 because they aren't either.

Once someone makes an unfounded allegation like that I like to accuse them of the same (regardless of of if they are or not...) to see how they react, and how they can justify making one unfounded allegation but rejecting one made against them.

In fact, many individuals, organisations and governments acknowlege the Palestinian suffering, which translate to - among other things - aid to Palestinians

And nothing has been done to put a halt to it. Only apply plasters to a bullet wound.

 

[Arminkh]

You're stuck again on a number, which I already indicated is irrelevant. Do you have to keep trying to put words in my mouth at every turn? You know very well what I meant.

No I don't, please enlighten me. All I have found out from our conversation so far is that we have a big chip on our shoulder, we should let go of the memory of this horrible crime and .....

That Airplane was shot down because it was Iranian. There were a lot of passenger jets flying in the area from other nations but US ship decided to shoot down that airplane. It was the direct result of US animosity towards Iran. There is no other justification for that.

Hitler was an enemy of Jews and killed defenseless Jews, US was an enemy of Iran and killed defenseless Iranians.

Iran helped Assad gassing his own people.

First of all, it was never proved that Assad did that. Then, I don't know how Iran helped Assad do that? Do you mean we provided Assad with chemical weapons?

2nd, I do understand that many Syrians may hate Iran for helping Assad. But you need to remember his government is the legal government of Syria and I also need to remind you that most of the world agrees with my opinion. If not, how do you justify them having a sit in United Nation? I don't even bring up the results of latest polls in Syria.

3rd, You cannot separate a nation from its government unless that country is not democratic. In case of US it is and people choose their government. Yes there are a lot of wonderful people in US but majority actually approve US policies towards Iran. If you don't believe me read their comments in the news sites.

So overall, Iran is not looking at a separated incident to decide about its view of US. Unfortunately, there is a long list of US non-friendly actions towards Iran. To name a few:

• They disregarded Iran's neutrality in WWII and occupied Iran and used Iran's food stock for their own troops. Millions of Iranians died as a result of famine because of something we had nothing to do about. My grand mother was a kid back then and recalled the days when they had to pay fortune for a black piece of bread.
• They overthrew Mosaddegh,
• They helped Iraq in the war against us
• They even interfered in the war, attacked our navy and shot down our passenger jet.
• They have held on to the again unproven accusation of Iran trying to gain nuclear weapon and have put the heaviest sanction on Iran the world has ever seen.
• Even now that Iran is compatible with the recent nuclear agreement, they are still adding to the sanctions due to other excuses like why Iran is testing ballistic missiles.
• They call Iran a terrorist state day in day out

And the list continues.

As you can see it goes beyond one person or one president. This is a consistent behavior that does not change.

Now, put yourself in Iran's place and see how you would feel about all this?

 

[ValerioAurelius]

No I don't, please enlighten me. All I have found out from our conversation so far is that we have a big chip on our shoulder, we should let go of the memory of this horrible crime and .....

That Airplane was shot down because it was Iranian. There were a lot of passenger jets flying in the area from other nations but US ship decided to shoot down that airplane. It was the direct result of US animosity towards Iran. There is no other justification for that.

Hitler was an enemy of Jews and killed defenseless Jews, US was an enemy of Iran and killed defenseless Iranians.


First of all, it was never proved that Assad did that. Then, I don't know how Iran helped Assad do that? Do you mean we provided Assad with chemical weapons?

2nd, I do understand that many Syrians may hate Iran for helping Assad. But you need to remember his government is the legal government of Syria and I also need to remind you that most of the world agrees with my opinion. If not, how do you justify them having a sit in United Nation? I don't even bring up the results of latest polls in Syria.

3rd, You cannot separate a nation from its government unless that country is not democratic. In case of US it is and people choose their government. Yes there are a lot of wonderful people in US but majority actually approve US policies towards Iran. If you don't believe me read their comments in the news sites.

So overall, Iran is not looking at a separated incident to decide about its view of US. Unfortunately, there is a long list of US non-friendly actions towards Iran. To name a few:

• They disregarded Iran's neutrality in WWII and occupied Iran and used Iran's food stock for their own troops. Millions of Iranians died as a result of famine because of something we had nothing to do about. My grand mother was a kid back then and recalled the days when they had to pay fortune for a black piece of bread.
• They overthrew Mosaddegh,
• They helped Iraq in the war against us
• They even interfered in the war, attacked our navy and shot down our passenger jet.
• They have held on to the again unproven accusation of Iran trying to gain nuclear weapon and have put the heaviest sanction on Iran the world has ever seen.
• Even now that Iran is compatible with the recent nuclear agreement, they are still adding to the sanctions due to other excuses like why Iran is testing ballistic missiles.
• They call Iran a terrorist state day in day out

And the list continues.

As you can see it goes beyond one person or one president. This is a consistent behavior that does not change.

Now, put yourself in Iran's place and see how you would feel about all this?

I´m aware of that. But what does it change?

Is Iran a democratic country? It is not. And a democracy barely can influnce such things like foreign politics. Do you honestly think an american worker thinks about Iran? It sees the Ayatollah with his "Death to Amerika" speeches and then hates Iran.

In the end you will need to find a way to forgive. Iran has much potential. But it cant achieve this when isolated.

 

[Arminkh]

I´m aware of that. But what does it change?

Is Iran a democratic country? It is not. And a democracy barely can influnce such things like foreign politics. Do you honestly think an american worker thinks about Iran? It sees the Ayatollah with his "Death to Amerika" speeches and then hates Iran.

In the end you will need to find a way to forgive. Iran has much potential. But it cant achieve this when isolated.

I don't agree with you. Iran is democratic in its own way. Yes they have filtering systems for their candidates so does all other democratic nations although it may not be as upfront as that of Iran.

You need to understand we didn't start this issue. Most of the Iranians probably didn't even know where US was until they occupied Iran.

I'm not a fan of chanting "Death to America" myself. I'm talking about the mental state here and am arguing Iranians have every right to feel the way they feel. Forgiving can only happen when the other side stops its wrong doings and let the relation heal. There can't be any forgiveness without that.

 

[ValerioAurelius]

I don't agree with you. Iran is democratic in its own way. Yes they have filtering systems for their candidates so does all other democratic nations although it may not be as upfront as that of Iran.

You need to understand we didn't start this issue. Most of the Iranians probably didn't even know where US was until they occupied Iran.

I'm not a fan of chanting "Death to America" myself. I'm talking about the mental state here and am arguing Iranians have every right to feel the way they feel. Forgiving can only happen when the other side stops its wrong doings and let the relation heal. There can't be any forgiveness without that.

There can. Iran could make a step towards that and in some regards some circles in Iran do.

There is a villa in Tehran, build by an italian star architect. Iran wanted to destroy that building to make room for a shopping center.

It had zero protection, because

1. it was italian build
2. it was not islamic


And you know what happened? People protested. Art students.

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ti-villa-from-bulldozers-villa-namazee-tehran

So you see there are Iranians who support also foreign art and design. If Iran isolates itself forever it cant get better.

 

[Arminkh]

There can. Iran could make a step towards that and in some regards some circles in Iran do.

There is a villa in Tehran, build by an italian star architect. Iran wanted to destroy that building to make room for a shopping center.

It had zero protection, because

1. it was italian build
2. it was not islamic


And you know what happened? People protested. Art students.

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ti-villa-from-bulldozers-villa-namazee-tehran

So you see there are Iranians who support also foreign art and design. If Iran isolates itself forever it cant get better.

I don't dispute that. Yes they can but so far it has been futile.

A good example was the recent warm up between Obama administration and Iran's government. There were constant phone calls between Zarif and Kerry on different occasions. Even Rohani's answering Obama's call was a bold move that later was criticized in Iran.

And what did we get in return? Current US administration demanding government change in Iran. Iran is the same Iran it was. Obama was an exception and now that he is gone, everything is business as usual.

Here is how I see it:

The world is a big pie which until we colonize other planets is not going to get any bigger. Up to a number of years ago, this pie was divided between world powers and was kind of stable, anyone happy with what they had. The middle east portion of the pie belonged to US.

Then, Iran decided it doesn't want to remain a piece of the pie anymore. I think this is where it all starts.

This is a geopolitical struggle between a nation who wants to increase its share of a pie and another nation who wants to hold on to what it had.

I really don't think change of actions (unless it is giving up our ambition) would change anything.

On the other hand, we don't have the same problem with some European countries. Italy, Germany and France are returning to Iran and are actually investing in Iran now. Because they don't look at Iran as a competition but US does.