Inter Squadron Armament Competition 2019

[Falgrine]

 

[SecularNationalist]

Looks like we are going to see some good camera work and production (atleast better than we know who) as Irfan Junejo was invited by PAF to cover operations of ISAC for a day.
View attachment 586230

I have the honor of watching this live firing PAF exercises at somiani firing range during 2001 when Irfan junejo was my class fellow in grade 5. This thread gave me nostalgia.

 

[Talon]

Paf to hold fire power demo on 6th of November at Sonmiani beach.Sherdils will also participate.Lets hope we get a full show and not just a few clips.

 

[litman]

Cannon is a very effective weapon in close air support and deep interdiction missions. In some of the anti-terror ops our F-16s had to fly as low as 200 feet to strafe the enemy position.

Strafing helps to reduce collateral damage and is primarily effective against dispersed targets and fast-moving vehicles. Air Forces around the world do not have the luxury to target each enemy foot soldier with an LGB or even free fall bombs.

As for organised enemy such as Indian armed forces,. a targetted cannon fire on the enemy flight lines, jets parked in front of hangers is an ideal feat. In combat missions over hostile areas, the priority is to maximize the damage. Hence weapons like LGB's are often reserved for fuel dumps, runways, radar stations, ammo dumps. Destruction of these assets paralyses even the airworthy jets. What good is a Rafale if cannot take off.

Here you go.

indians wont let our jets so close to their rafales that we can take them out with guns. gone are the days of 65 and 71. they have advanced defense systems today. in the recent skirmish IAF used over 40 air crafts with guided weapons to launch a strike very close to border areas and we also used 24 air crafts with long range weapons to hit areas very close to the LOC. no one even dared to engage the enemy with WVR missiles. how come one day both the air forces will let the enemy jets to come so close to their ground targets and let them use cannons? during the WOT F-16s used to engage the ground targets from a very high altitude . it was even difficult to even spot them from ground. they used bombs and you know why? taliban used to fire at them with anti crafts with anti aircraft guns.
do you think that paf and iaf will use high end expensive air crafts like su 30, rafale, mirage 2000, F-16s and JFTs in strafing? they will never use their expensive assets in roles with very high cost to benefit ratio.
the scenario will be like 4 f 16s sent to take out enemy convoy and they engaged them with cannons. enemy fired back with anti aricraft guns. 2 enemy trucks got hit and we lost one f-16. it will be stupid way to use the air force in modern warfare.

 

[Talon]

15 sqn Cobras jets now support H weapon markings from 27th February.Just above the nose serial.

 

[airomerix]

indians wont let our jets so close to their rafales that we can take them out with guns. gone are the days of 65 and 71. they have advanced defense systems today. in the recent skirmish IAF used over 40 air crafts with guided weapons to launch a strike very close to border areas and we also used 24 air crafts with long range weapons to hit areas very close to the LOC. no one even dared to engage the enemy with WVR missiles. how come one day both the air forces will let the enemy jets to come so close to their ground targets and let them use cannons? during the WOT F-16s used to engage the ground targets from a very high altitude . it was even difficult to even spot them from ground. they used bombs and you know why? taliban used to fire at them with anti crafts with anti aircraft guns.
do you think that paf and iaf will use high end expensive air crafts like su 30, rafale, mirage 2000, F-16s and JFTs in strafing? they will never use their expensive assets in roles with very high cost to benefit ratio.
the scenario will be like 4 f 16s sent to take out enemy convoy and they engaged them with cannons. enemy fired back with anti aricraft guns. 2 enemy trucks got hit and we lost one f-16. it will be stupid way to use the air force in modern warfare.

No one is undermining the use of standoff weapons or underestimating the enemy.

We still train to strafe to perfection. ISAC is an example. Otherwise, why would we even bother to hold such an event with visual range attacks?

Secondly, no, we did use F-16s in close air support missions on low altitudes. I think you need to get in touch with the guys in 9 or 11 sqn.

As for anti aircraft guns in the hands of taliban, not even once were they able to bring down any of our jets or helo's for that matter.

Lastly, no one said IAF would 'let' use get close to their base. Why would they? But in an event of war there are no rules. Everything is an eventuality. Had your narrative been valid, US would have retired A-10's ages ago, removed cannon's from most of its jets (since you mentioned WVR times are over).

Lets not rule out the eventualities of war. Completely.

 

[litman]

No one is undermining the use of standoff weapons or underestimating the enemy.

We still train to strafe to perfection. ISAC is an example. Otherwise, why would we even bother to hold such an event with visual range attacks?

Secondly, no, we did use F-16s in close air support missions on low altitudes. I think you need to get in touch with the guys in 9 or 11 sqn.

As for anti aircraft guns in the hands of taliban, not even once were they able to bring down any of our jets or helo's for that matter.

Lastly, no one said IAF would 'let' use get close to their base. Why would they? But in an event of war there are no rules. Everything is an eventuality. Had your narrative been valid, US would have retired A-10's ages ago, removed cannon's from most of its jets (since you mentioned WVR times are over).

Lets not rule out the eventualities of war. Completely.

strafing taliban hidden in caves . brilliant move. even the houses they built in those areas have walls so thick that bullets cant penetrate them. taliban did bring down a helo in fata

 

[Adam_Khan]

No one is undermining the use of standoff weapons or underestimating the enemy.

We still train to strafe to perfection. ISAC is an example. Otherwise, why would we even bother to hold such an event with visual range attacks?

Secondly, no, we did use F-16s in close air support missions on low altitudes. I think you need to get in touch with the guys in 9 or 11 sqn.

As for anti aircraft guns in the hands of taliban, not even once were they able to bring down any of our jets or helo's for that matter.

Lastly, no one said IAF would 'let' use get close to their base. Why would they? But in an event of war there are no rules. Everything is an eventuality. Had your narrative been valid, US would have retired A-10's ages ago, removed cannon's from most of its jets (since you mentioned WVR times are over).

Lets not rule out the eventualities of war. Completely.

They didn't succeed in shooting fighters however one Mi.17 was shot down in Waziristan and one AH.1 Cobra was shot down during Tirah operation.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[airomerix]

strafing taliban hidden in caves . brilliant move. even the houses they built in those areas have walls so thick that bullets cant penetrate them. taliban did bring down a helo in fata

I don't understand who you are quoting here. Who said anything about strafing militants inside caves?

Let's not misquote each other.

If you find the idea of strafing militants unfathomable then I cant do much here.

They didn't succeed in shooting fighters however one Mi.17 was shot down in Waziristan and one AH.1 Cobra was shot down during Tirah operation.

I very well remember the Cobra incident. It was not a shoot down. There was an electrical short circuit in the wiring of its forward fuselage which caused the fire and jammed the controls.

It was this incident which led Pakistan Army Aviation to send these cobra's to PAC Kamra for complete rewiring. The bill by Bell company was huge. We did it in 1/10th the price. Saw these cobra's personally at ARF.

 

[Windjammer]

strafing taliban hidden in caves . brilliant move. even the houses they built in those areas have walls so thick that bullets cant penetrate them. taliban did bring down a helo in fata

After a decade in development and the whole program costing in excess of a trillion dollars, i guess both USAF and LM have over looked the unnecessity of having a gun on the F-35.

 

[litman]

After a decade in development and the whole program costing in excess of a trillion dollars, i guess both USAF and LM have over looked the unnecessity of having a gun on the F-35.

that gun is there as last resort. when all missiles are fired and the air craft is still in hostile environment in air to air combat. i am sure they will never plan on using the gun for attacking ground targets as the first option.
gun is not completely useless but it is for desperate times and its use specially in engaging ground targets is very limited then why we are still holding competition on a skill that is obsolete now. in feb both the air forces used large number of 4th gen jets with highly advanced weapons for relatively minor targets that too close to LOC. so what is the possibility that in a real war both the air forces will be using guns for launching deep strikes against enemy air bases or even army columns with advanced air defense systems. this is not 65 and 71 .today the air crafts are very expensive and air defense systems are also very advanced.

 

[Windjammer]

that gun is there as last resort. when all missiles are fired and the air craft is still in hostile environment in air to air combat. i am sure they will never plan on using the gun for attacking ground targets as the first option.
gun is not completely useless but it is for desperate times and its use specially in engaging ground targets is very limited then why we are still holding competition on a skill that is obsolete now. in feb both the air forces used large number of 4th gen jets with highly advanced weapons for relatively minor targets that too close to LOC. so what is the possibility that in a real war both the air forces will be using guns for launching deep strikes against enemy air bases or even army columns with advanced air defense systems. this is not 65 and 71 .today the air crafts are very expensive and air defense systems are also very advanced.

''He's too close for missiles, Goose, I'm switching to guns''!!!!
Hence, For the same reason Marines still get Bayonets to attach to their M16: Just in case you need to get up close and personal.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Why do Pakistani members keep coming up with non-sensical statements/analysis?
What did we learn from 2/27?

indians wont let our jets so close to their rafales that we can take them out with guns. gone are the days of 65 and 71. they have advanced defense systems today. in the recent skirmish IAF used over 40 air crafts with guided weapons to launch a strike very close to border areas and we also used 24 air crafts with long range weapons to hit areas very close to the LOC. no one even dared to engage the enemy with WVR missiles. how come one day both the air forces will let the enemy jets to come so close to their ground targets and let them use cannons? during the WOT F-16s used to engage the ground targets from a very high altitude . it was even difficult to even spot them from ground. they used bombs and you know why? taliban used to fire at them with anti crafts with anti aircraft guns.
do you think that paf and iaf will use high end expensive air crafts like su 30, rafale, mirage 2000, F-16s and JFTs in strafing? they will never use their expensive assets in roles with very high cost to benefit ratio.
the scenario will be like 4 f 16s sent to take out enemy convoy and they engaged them with cannons. enemy fired back with anti aricraft guns. 2 enemy trucks got hit and we lost one f-16. it will be stupid way to use the air force in modern warfare.

 

[Adam_Khan]

I don't understand who you are quoting here. Who said anything about strafing militants inside caves?

Let's not misquote each other.

If you find the idea of strafing militants unfathomable then I cant do much here.



I very well remember the Cobra incident. It was not a shoot down. There was an electrical short circuit in the wiring of its forward fuselage which caused the fire and jammed the controls.

It was this incident which led Pakistan Army Aviation to send these cobra's to PAC Kamra for complete rewiring. The bill by Bell company was huge. We did it in 1/10th the price. Saw these cobra's personally at ARF.

My childhood friend was there in the operation to retrieve their bodies and he clearly said they were shot down with an RPG as they were flying low also a brigadier died in the rescue operation.