Intelligence Report: "My Stand is with Pakistan"

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I do, infact, if you haven't noticed, many members on this forum who happen to be Sunnis are staunch critics of Saudia Arabia/GCC.

How do you know that many Shia members aren't critics of Iran? We don't ask posters what their sect is so your claim that Shia just blindly support Iran and don't criticize Iran over their polices that are anti-Pakistan is nothing but speculation.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

How do you know that many Shia members aren't critics of Iran?

That's why I asked you, have you meet any Shia here or in your personal interaction who is staunch critic of Iran?

I haven't.

You see the problem people like me face, when we are in our "inner circle", and these discussion comes up, we are faced with these questions, "Have you heard any shia being critical of Iran despite knowing what Iran has been doing against Pakistan". And with the same breath, "Then why we should be critical of Saudi Arabia and Arabs?". Which I acknowledge, is a wrong way to look at things. But that's how things are seen sometimes in black and white unfortunately.

I mean no disrespect or anything, but there is certainly an element of hesitation in our Shia population when it comes to criticizing Iran (not referring to you).

In current geopolitics, where nations are looking after their own interests more vigorously and everyone else is dispensable, Pakistanis regardless of their sects, needs to start looking towards their own, even its within their own sect, and cut off foreign influences which can cloud their judgement.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That's why I asked you, have you meet any Shia here or in your personal interaction who is staunch critic of Iran?

I haven't.

You see the problem people like me face, when we are in our "inner circle", and these discussion comes up, we are faced with these questions, "Have you heard any shia being critical of Iran despite knowing what Iran has been doing against Pakistan". And with the same breath, "Then why we should be critical of Saudi Arabia and Arabs?". Which I acknowledge, is a wrong way to look at things. But that's how things are seen sometimes in black and white unfortunately.

I mean no disrespect or anything, but there is certainly an element of hesitation in our Shia population when it comes to criticizing Iran (not referring to you).

In current geopolitics, where nations are looking after their own interests more vigorously and everyone else is dispensable, Pakistanis regardless of their sects, needs to start looking towards their own, even its within their own sect, and cut off foreign influences which can cloud their judgement.

If you really want to know what a particular individual thinks, next time you're having a discussion with someone who's Shia, assuming your relationship is at a level that you can ask such a question, ask them what they think about Iranians recruiting Pakistani Shia to fight in sectarian wars abroad.

I think the best approach is what you outlined - reiterate in your internal groups or other people that you have discussions with that bring up the whole 'Shia don't criticize Iran' that this is not the proper way to assess the views of an entire community of tens of millions.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

That's why I asked you, have you meet any Shia here or in your personal interaction who is staunch critic of Iran?

I haven't.

You see the problem people like me face, when we are in our "inner circle", and these discussion comes up, we are faced with these questions, "Have you heard any shia being critical of Iran despite knowing what Iran has been doing against Pakistan". And with the same breath, "Then why we should be critical of Saudi Arabia and Arabs?". Which I acknowledge, is a wrong way to look at things. But that's how things are seen sometimes in black and white unfortunately.

I mean no disrespect or anything, but there is certainly an element of hesitation in our Shia population when it comes to criticizing Iran (not referring to you).

In current geopolitics, where nations are looking after their own interests more vigorously and everyone else is dispensable, Pakistanis regardless of their sects, needs to start looking towards their own, even its within their own sect, and cut off foreign influences which can cloud their judgement.

Iran has made themselves the leaders of the Shia Muslim world, so the brainwashing is very strong.

I have been to Shia Imambaras before, esp in Lahore, I always see pictures of Khomeini (understandable,) but also Khamenei and Ali Sistani.

We must remove that element of foreign control from Pakistan. Liwa Zanabiyoun proved just how toxic it can be.

It is only a matter of time before atrocities committed by them in Syria and Iraq reach Pakistan, and communal frenzy will be whipped up by certain forces.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Iran has made themselves the leaders of the Shia Muslim world, so the brainwashing is very strong.

I have been to Shia Imambaras before, esp in Lahore, I always see pictures of Khomeini (understandable,) but also Khamenei and Ali Sistani.

We must remove that element of foreign control from Pakistan. Liwa Zanabiyoun proved just how toxic it can be.

It is only a matter of time before atrocities committed by them in Syria and Iraq reach Pakistan, and communal frenzy will be whipped up by certain forces.

Here’s the thing - I agree with you that Iranian propaganda is very strong, but you’re not going to counter it by accusing the entire community of Pakistani Shia of being unpatriotic or disloyal. That will have the same effect that Muslims in India are suffering - it will play right into the hands of the Iranians and strengthen their propaganda.

What do we taunt the Indian Muslims with right now? See Jinnah was right, you guys stuck with these people and they don’t even trust you and question your loyalty and patriotism.

You don’t want discrimination in the country against ANY group and allow foreign powers to leverage that for their own gains. That’s how the Iranians got the recruits from Pakistan if your read that article I posted. They targeted the poorer Pakistani Shia communities in Balochistan and former FATA that had suffered the most from terrorism.

The article also points out how the majority of middle class Pakistani elsewhere in Pakistan have not been successfully recruited by the Iranians because they haven’t suffered a much and are much more integrated in Pakistan’s military, government etc.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Here’s the thing - I agree with you that Iranian propaganda is very strong, but you’re not going to counter it by accusing the entire community of Pakistani Shia of being unpatriotic or disloyal. That will have the same effect that Muslims in India are suffering - it will play right into the hands of the Iranians and strengthen their propaganda.

What do we taunt the Indian Muslims with right now? See Jinnah was right, you guys stuck with these people and they don’t even trust you and question your loyalty and patriotism.

You don’t want discrimination in the country against ANY group and allow foreign powers to leverage that for their own gains. That’s how the Iranians got the recruits from Pakistan if your read that article I posted. They targeted the poorer Pakistani Shia communities in Balochistan and former FATA that had suffered the most from terrorism.

The article also points out how the majority of middle class Pakistani elsewhere in Pakistan have not been successfully recruited by the Iranians because they haven’t suffered a much and are much more integrated in Pakistan’s military, government etc.

I just gave one example of portraits of Iraqi and Iranian religious/political leaders hanging in musallas of Imambaras. You can take it whatever way you wish.

Fact is that if we saw MBS posters in Sunni masajid, there would be an uproar in the media.

Why the double standards?

This is problem which needs to be dealt with, Iranian influence is toxic to the religious makeup of a mixed Sunni Shia country.

We have seen it in Iraq and Syria.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I just gave one example of portraits of Iraqi and Iranian religious/political leaders hanging in musallas of Imambaras. You can take it whatever way you wish.

Fact is that if we saw MBS posters in Sunni masajid, there would be an uproar in the media.

Why the double standards?

This is problem which needs to be dealt with, Iranian influence is toxic to the religious makeup of a mixed Sunni Shia country.

We have seen it in Iraq and Syria.

You’re comparing apples and oranges - MBS, or any member of the Saudi Royal Family leadership, isn’t a religious figure. Khomeini, Khomeini & Sistani are revered religious figures as well as political figures, but their political strength is because of their standing as religious leaders. That’s what Iran has done so successfully that Saudi Arabia hasn’t - combined revered religious figures with politics.

But Like I said before, Don’t mistake respect for religious leaders with a lack of loyalty to Pakistan. Accusing Pakistani Shia (or any other ethnic or religious minority) of being disloyal and unpatriotic is a surefire way to end up like Iraq & Syria. Iranian influence won’t be reduced by attacking & vilifying Pakistani Shia - a more thoughtful approach needs to be taken.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Accusing Pakistani Shia (or any other ethnic or religious minority) of being disloyal and unpatriotic is a surefire way to end up like Iraq & Syria. Iranian influence won’t be reduced by attacking & vilifying Pakistani Shia - a more thoughtful approach needs to be taken.

No one is saying that brother, please let's relax. I know many Shia brothers and sisters are automatically programmed to go into defensive mode, and I don't blame them for that response considering the volatile history of sectarianism in this country.

However, obviously idolizing religious leaders and heads of states of other countries is a big problem, esp when said leaders are sectarian themselves.

Liwa Zanabiyoun is a product of such influence which Iran has over our population. We should cut it and promote indigenous scholars and leaders who can promote more positive messages for our people, such as the unity of both Sunni and Shia together, and criticizing sectarianism in the ME.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

If you really want to know what a particular individual thinks, next time you're having a discussion with someone who's Shia, assuming your relationship is at a level that you can ask such a question, ask them what they think about Iranians recruiting Pakistani Shia to fight in sectarian wars abroad.

I think the best approach is what you outlined - reiterate in your internal groups or other people that you have discussions with that bring up the whole 'Shia don't criticize Iran' that this is not the proper way to assess the views of an entire community of tens of millions.

Pardon my ignorance about religious matters, Can a Pakistani become a Ayatollah or its something reserved for the Persians? I strongly believe, that if Pakistan has to lead, which it will, it has to grab the bull by its horns and become the seat of power for both Sunni and Shia schools of thoughts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pardon my ignorance about religious matters, Can a Pakistani become a Ayatollah or its something reserved for the Persians? I strongly believe, that if Pakistan has to lead, which it will, it has to grab the bull by its horns and become the seat of power for both Sunni and Shia schools of thoughts.

Absolutely!

Please don't for a moment think that I find the influence of external political and/or religious figures on Pakistan as something positive. Some people suggested that Pakistan have it's own religious authority for the various sects - I think that's a good idea.

Part of the problem with Iran specifically, like I mentioned earlier, is that the religious leadership is the same as the political leadership with power concentrated in the Ayatollah. I don't think the influence of the Ayatollah would be as problematic if it were separated from politics and focused solely on religious affairs - sort of like the Pope for Catholics.

 

[BATMAN]

And I said BOTH countries lie about each other. Please stop distorting my words to fit your biases.

You don't believe Saudi... it's your personal choice, but when you deny facts like Iranian missiles are being intercepted in #hundreds over civilian and economic infrastructure of Saudi Arabia, you are projecting your self as biased.
There's a video in the given link in one of my previous link... but that will not be acceptable for you as well.

Going back a bit to my post #87 where i quoted firing missiles at KSA as an example of Iranian terrorism (obviously list is long). You pulled Saudi in same bracket but when asked for equivalent example, you have nothing to show until now, instead you end up demanding video of interception of missile. Fair enough, but i'll remember that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You don't believe Saudi... it's your personal choice, but when you deny facts like Iranian missiles are being intercepted in #hundreds over civilian and economic infrastructure of Saudi Arabia, you are projecting your self as biased.
There's a video in the given link in one of my previous link... but that will not be acceptable for you as well.

Going back a bit to my post #87 where i quoted firing missiles at KSA as an example of Iranian terrorism (obviously list is long). You pulled Saudi in same bracket but when asked for equivalent example, you have nothing to show until now, instead you end up demanding video of interception of missile. Fair enough, but i'll remember that.

My quoted post said I don’t believe either Iran or Saudi - what do you find so hard to understand about that?

Why would Iran deliberately target Mecca?

As far as the rest of Saudi Arabia - how much civilian infrastructure have the Saudis targeted in Yemen? How many civilians have the Saudis killed in an unnecessary war in Yemen?

Neither side is blameless.

 

[BATMAN]

As far as the rest of Saudi Arabia - how much civilian infrastructure have the Saudis targeted in Yemen? How many civilians have the Saudis killed in an unnecessary war in Yemen?

Not much in my knowledge, may be you can educate us with facts, from sources which you trust!
Still Yemen conflict does not justify Iranian missile attacks on Saudi Arabia incl. Mecca which you deny now. Therefore, i have nothing against Saudi as of yet to blame them for hostilities towards Iran.

 

[TMA]

You’re comparing apples and oranges - MBS, or any member of the Saudi Royal Family leadership, isn’t a religious figure. Khomeini, Khomeini & Sistani are revered religious figures as well as political figures, but their political strength is because of their standing as religious leaders. That’s what Iran has done so successfully that Saudi Arabia hasn’t - combined revered religious figures with politics.

But Like I said before, Don’t mistake respect for religious leaders with a lack of loyalty to Pakistan. Accusing Pakistani Shia (or any other ethnic or religious minority) of being disloyal and unpatriotic is a surefire way to end up like Iraq & Syria. Iranian influence won’t be reduced by attacking & vilifying Pakistani Shia - a more thoughtful approach needs to be taken.

And if Saudi Arabia took a leaf from Iran and managed to combine revered religious personalities with political personalities - then what?

The fact that some Pakistani Shia see foreign political leaders as religious leaders and vice versa is an issue already. And Iran uses this to her advantage....

You mention the Pope for the Catholics - but what you must remember is that it took centuries of conflict, much of which were sanguine effusions that led to what the Pope is nowadays - a purely ceremonial religious leader without political or military authority. Pakistan cannot afford to go through such conflicts.

Is there any other manner?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not much in my knowledge, may be you can educate us with facts, from sources which you trust!
Still Yemen conflict does not justify Iranian missile attacks on Saudi Arabia incl. Mecca which you deny now. Therefore, i have nothing against Saudi as of yet to blame them for hostilities towards Iran.

I’d like independent confirmation/evidence of a DELIBERATE missile attack in Mecca by the Iranians - you haven’t provided any independent confirmation/evidence.

As far as civilian casualties caused by Saudi Arabia in Yemen:

As of November 2018, 6,872 civilians had been killed and 10,768 wounded, the majority by Saudi Arabia-led coalition airstrikes, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR). The actual civilian casualties are likely much higher. Thousands more have been displaced by the fighting and millions suffer from shortages of food and medical care.


https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/yemen

Saudi Arabia chose to enter a war in Yemen and strikes on Saudi Arabia as a result are its own fault.