Intelligence Report: "My Stand is with Pakistan"

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This issue needs to be raised from within Shias as it will only then have an effect.

I agree, but we also have to change from within in terms of ending sectarianism. Raising questions about Iran is fine but let’s not attack Pakistani Shia - treat them with respect and don’t question their loyalty (not referring to you specifically) and you’ll see the change you’re looking for occur over time, assuming Iran doesn’t mend its ways.

The divide in Pakistan between Shia and Sunni, support for Iran vs support for Saudi, has been decades in the making. Only when we resolve our domestic tensions will this divide begin to heal.

Also, please remember that when it comes to geo-politics, people can have a difference of opinion based on multiple factors. Don’t automatically assume that support for X country has nefarious implications. Rational discussion about the pros and cons (leaving out the religious aspect) is what is needed. If every time we talk about Iran we bring up the Pakistani Shia angle, it’ll poison the discussion and we’ll get nowhere.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

So, it kinda useless for Pakistani shia to come forward and give anything in there defence. Majority of this country are Sunni, let them handle the way they want it. That's all I can say. But Pakistan is my country and I won't let it fall at any cost.

I really hate this pessimistic attitude which some minorities have in Pakistan, including some old Muhajir and Punjabi uncles.

It is not about Shia, Sunni, but we need to understand it is about us all being Pakistanis. If Pakistan falls, neither Shia nor Sunni will be safe from our enemies.

Again ...lots of people !!! .. it doesn't prove anything. Here we are talking about the way 70,000 killed and still our officers are dying in FATA and thousands of injured which killed by our own religious extremist element. Not Shia or Sunni moderates. Few days ago another suicide bombing in Quetta to target DSP. Because DSP was carrying operation against extremist elements and lost his life with many others. These people are locals not some came from other country to do this job.

TTP is not an ideologically Sunni group, they use such things but basically they are foreign proxies. TTP is an avowed enemy of the state of Pakistan and also Afghan Taliban.

Not every terrorist is Sunni either. It goes both ways.

I don't like the predisposition of some of the Shias to paint all Sunnis with this broad brush, and also to look for Sunni motives for terrorist groups.

Even now many Shias claim Daesh is Sunni, when they are Khawarij, which are not even Muslims.

Also Salafis are not Sunnis either as they reject our Hadith books and scholars.

Same can be said about misinformation being spread about Deobandis, who ideologically closer to and push for an Iranian style revolutionary government and more pro-Iran than other groups.

 

[HAIDER]

I really hate this pessimistic attitude which some minorities have in Pakistan, including some old Muhajir and Punjabi uncles.

It is not about Shia, Sunni, but we need to understand it is about us all being Pakistanis. If Pakistan falls, neither Shia nor Sunni will be safe from our enemies.



TTP is not an ideologically Sunni group, they use such things but basically they are foreign proxies. TTP is an avowed enemy of the state of Pakistan and also Afghan Taliban.

Not every terrorist is Sunni either. It goes both ways.

I don't like the predisposition of some of the Shias to paint all Sunnis with this broad brush, and also to look for Sunni motives for terrorist groups.

Even now many Shias claim Daesh is Sunni, when they are Khawarij, which are not even Muslims.

Also Salafis are not Sunnis either as they reject our Hadith books and scholars.

I occasionally use word moderate Sunni and in my previous post said many time before, that more Sunni died due to terrorism compare then Shia . And I respect that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't like the predisposition of some of the Shias to paint all Sunnis with this broad brush, and also to look for Sunni motives for terrorist groups.

I agree, and I might be wrong but I don't think that is what Haider meant. The vast majority of Shia and Sunni just want to live peaceful and prosperous lives. As I and some others pointed out, there continues to be an increase in 'blended' families comprised of both Shia and Sunni which will hopefully help in ending misunderstandings on both sides.

Dealing with each other respectfully is important - allow me to narrate another personal anecdote from my childhood.

As I mentioned, my mother is Sunni and father (RIP) was Shia. As a child, conversations with my cousins (mother's side) would occasionally revolve around my fathers faith. As a child I had to listen to my cousins tell me that 'Imambargah's are dens for orgies and wild sex', that 'Shia spit in the food of Sunnis', that 'Shia will kidnap Sunni children and kill them' and all sorts of absurd and hurtful claims.

I'd usually point out to my cousins that I went to the Imambargah with my father frequently and had yet to see these 'fantastic orgies'. Nor did I ever see my father 'spit in the food' of my mother, nor did my father ever 'kidnap' my cousins. But it is the fact that my own cousins, whose parents knew my father, who themselves knew my father, would resort to such hurtful claims that was shocking.

Imagine the lasting impression these kinds of things leave on a child's mind.

If we really want Pakistan to be united and the Shia-Sunni aspect to be nothing more than a personal choice of faith, then we ALL need to stand up against this kind of hate and prejudice that even children are exposed to.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I occasionally use word moderate Sunni and in my previous post said many time before, that more Sunni died due to terrorism compare then Shia . And I respect that.

That is also insulting, just as much as moderate Muslim or moderate Shia. Unfortunately in this age where terms are so loaded, we must be careful about labels.

Proper Sunnis and proper Shias who understand Islam and Hadith would know of the true nature of Islam, which is peace and coexistence with humanity. It is impossible to follow Prophet Muhammad SAWS and not aspire to higher values.

Education is the key to all these problems.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I agree, but we also have to change from within in terms of ending sectarianism. Raising questions about Iran is fine but let’s not attack Pakistani Shia - treat them with respect and don’t question their loyalty (not referring to you specifically) and you’ll see the change you’re looking for occur over time, assuming Iran doesn’t mend its ways.

The divide in Pakistan between Shia and Sunni, support for Iran vs support for Saudi, has been decades in the making. Only when we resolve our domestic tensions will this divide begin to heal.

Also, please remember that when it comes to geo-politics, people can have a difference of opinion based on multiple factors. Don’t automatically assume that support for X country has nefarious implications. Rational discussion about the pros and cons (leaving out the religious aspect) is what is needed. If every time we talk about Iran we bring up the Pakistani Shia angle, it’ll poison the discussion and we’ll get nowhere.

Education about ugly geopolitical realities got nothing to do with sectarianism. Its our responsibility to be aware as a citizen of Pakistan. Know about them , acknowledge them and understand the state interests are above anything and everything. Its the silence on matters of extreme importance to Pakistan which is taken as consent, that is the crux of the problem. We need to be more vocal on matters which concerns our motherland. Persians will ditch us in the blink of an eye if it server their interests, and so do the Arabs.


And when we have this mentality, the scourge of sectarianism will die it own death because its an imported phenomena in Pakistan , thanks to both Iran and Saudi Arabia. I refuse to believe that's is in our DNA. After all, you are talking about a nation, a Sunni majority nation, which has elected Shias to lead them by power of vote.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

. I refuse to believe that's is in our DNA. After all, you are talking about a nation, a Sunni majority nation, which has elected Shias to lead them by power of vote.

Exactly, the Pakistan movement was Non-sectarian from the very beginning. This is the blessing which Pakistan has.

We even brought over Christians and Ahmadiyyas who feared for their lives in what now became India.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Sir , there lobby is very strong. Pakistani shia has only one way ... stay silent or leave the country. I personally seen lots of atrocities with my own eyes. My family first victim was at Karachi Imambargh in PECHS. Where people came in shouting " shia kafir " and " kill them all" with shower bullets on Namazi and left without any worry , all dead and was pool of blood inside mosque. As of today , no one ever arrest or anything happened against those killer, whole case went to cold storage. And then this chain of killing went non stop. Emergence of new killing spree of Quetta Hazara , they got killed and later Australian and Canadian govt provide them refugee status. I really failed to understand after so much atrocities against Shia , what these people want. Non Shia ever raise the arms or anti Pakistan slogan.
But,I would say Pakistan army and our Sunni brothers get victim of this constant suicide bombing and attack on mosque too. Now certain groups has build a typical mindset/narrative to blame India,Afghanistan,Iran or Israel or US for all this problem. In reality all these extremist element living in our society and they still preaching hate. But no one dare to point the real source of this hate.
So, it kinda useless for Pakistani shia to come forward and give anything in there defence. Majority of this country are Sunni, let them handle the way they want it. That's all I can say. But Pakistan is my country and I won't let it fall at any cost.

"sectarian violence is from February 1995. At the Mehfil-e-Murtaza Imambargah in Karachi, 16 people had been lined up and shot dead as they were preparing for a funeral. Sipah-e-Sahaba gunmen had stormed in and killed them point blank."

1. Sunnis vastly out number Shia casualties during last 15 years of terrorism. State has carried out heavy handed operations towards Same Sunni group that once state use to rely on in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Where as Shia militant groups were funded by Iran and never step up to fight for Pakistan, instead they volunteer to fight for Iran in Syria and Iraq.

2. Shia Sunni issues started after Iranian revolution. Blasphemies material were imported from Iran and spread using Imam barghas. Publications address were printed behind the books with Karachi and Lahore addresses.

3. Iranian trained militants killed anyone politician who tried bring such questionable material into parliament for debate.

4. After assassination of Haq nawaz Jangvi, who was MNA trying to bring this issue into National Assembly ( just like Qadinani issue). LeJ formed. Their mission wasn’t debate, they wanted revenge.

5. What Iranian apparatus, failed to realized that miscalculated their odds.They were using 10% minority, and betting in extremely religiously sensitive society.

They failed in Iraq during Saddam and GCC, they were bound to fail in Pakistan.

 

[HAIDER]

1. Sunnis vastly out number Shia casualties during last 15 years of terrorism. State has carried out heavy handed operations towards Same Sunni group that once state use to rely on in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Where as Shia militant groups were funded by Iran and never step up to fight for Pakistan, instead they volunteer to fight for Iran in Syria and Iraq.

2. Shia Sunni issues started after Iranian revolution. Blasphemies material were imported from Iran and spread using Imam barghas. Publications address were printed behind the books with Karachi and Lahore addresses.

3. Iranian trained militants killed anyone politician who tried bring such questionable material into parliament for debate.

4. After assassination of Haq nawaz Jangvi, who was MNA trying to bring this issue into National Assembly ( just like Qadinani issue). LeJ formed. Their mission wasn’t debate, they wanted revenge.

5. What Iranian apparatus, failed to realized that miscalculated their odds.They were using 10% minority, and betting in extremely religiously sensitive society.

They failed in Iraq during Saddam and GCC, they were bound to fail in Pakistan.

Sir, issue started in 1971 when Iraqi Saddam Hussain funded and organized Sawad e azam organization in Pakistan and govt caught weapon in Iraqi embassy which suppose to deliver to Baluch separatist in Pakistan. Iraq ,Russia and India ultimate target to start sectarian war and establish independent Baluchistan of both sides.
We don't read history in depth.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Sir, issue started in 1971 when Iraqi Saddam Hussain funded and organized Sawad e azam organization in Pakistan and govt caught weapon in Iraqi embassy which suppose to deliver to Baluch separatist in Pakistan. Iraq ,Russia and India ultimate target to start sectarian war and establish independent Baluchistan of both sides.
We don't read history in depth.

I am aware of Saddam Soviet era terror activities in Baluchistan.

Don’t mix and twist the facts. Iranian revolution took place in 1979. Blasphemous Publication started in 80s. SSP was formed in mid 1985. Violence started after that.

BTW I heard, 2018, ban was lifted of SSP or whatever it’s new name is !!

 

[The Eagle]

We should learn from Syria Libya Iraq etc and must think like one nation, if we really wants to thwart the evil designs. We all know that our enemies failed numerous times just because we stood steadfast and without any difference of religion, creed, caste or sect at all which were whole bunch of options for them to divide us, weaken and then kill us. The Pakistan is all we need and have to stand with, to deter hostiles on every level.

I must agree that as a nation, we need to not to fall for such trap of ethnic or sectarian hatred and must remain united for the motherland. Our only weakness and most vulnerable area to be exploited starts with sectarian and then ethnic divide.

I stand with Pakistan, is everything for unity. As we move forward, we can get rid of those whosoever are more loyal to the foreign masters than Pakistan. Either Iranian Mullah or Royal Shaikh, we aren't their guardians nor to their fantasy political rivalry but as a Muslim, it's for Islam, it's for Pakistan in fact. Similarly, minorities are too our strong hands for defence of motherland. It's a fact that there certain rats, peddling their venomous agenda in the name of sects as well as ethnicity and they aren't loyal to religion nor Pakistan. These kind of snakes play on every side for Fasad so, a shia or Sunni must not fall merely for the sake of that rat's appearance. Those who joined ranks of Iranian proxies in Syria or ISIS or TTP, have brought nothing instead tried to disrespect religion providing opportunities to others to malign and harm Pakistan as well.

Together we stand, divided we fall.

 

[HAIDER]

I am aware of Saddam Soviet era terror activities in Baluchistan.

Don’t mix and twist the facts. Iranian revolution took place in 1979. Blasphemous Publication started in 80s. SSP was formed in mid 1985. Violence started after that.

There is wide defference in 1971 and 1979 . Sectarianism started in 1971. But, it is very strange my familiy and relatives live in Pakistan and we lost many friends and close relatives in terrorism. I can quote another most recent incident at my relatives home, don't want to share identity, where there was loss of life and major injuries. Attackers were local religious extremist boys . But , I couldn't find any Iranian agent or Iranian govt employee came to our house ..... In my personal experience , may be people has sympathy with Iranian shia, but there no such thing on the ground.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But , I couldn't find any Iranian agent or Iranian govt employee came to our house ..... In my personal experience , may be people has sympathy with Iranian shia, but there no such thing on the ground.

Yeah - Iran has extremely rarely been a topic of conversation in my family, nor has it been a topic of conversation when we go to our villages (which are Shia dominated) and hang out at the Dera and meet various people.

This whole thing about 'Iran influencing Pakistani Shia' is about as exaggerated as Saudi Arabia influencing Pakistani Sunni - yes, there are organizations and groups and individuals on both sides that are influenced by Iran and Saudi Arabia, but the vast majority of Shia and Sunni don't really give a damn about the geo-political games being played here. They're all worried about everyday life.

 

[S.Y.A]

you are insane

i am sorry but you seem to be justifying TTP attacks on Pakistan

It was war, shit happens. Not really insane when you calm down and think about it from a neutral perspective. What would you do if someone kills your family? Same thing that ttp did, in the beginning, and same thing that the army did after aps. Do the same to shia areas, we will see their response, then we will talk.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its the silence on matters of extreme importance to Pakistan which is taken as consent, that is the crux of the problem.

Oh bhai, even in the US people have a surface level understanding of complex domestic issues (forget complex geo-political issues), and this is in a society that is highly educated and has access to a wide array of media platforms. Mainstream media, Twitter, Facebook - informs the views of many. Most are focused on careers, sports, socializing etc.

How on earth can you expect Pakistanis to have this deep understanding of complex geo-political issues? Hell, we can barely have civil, rational debates on this forum which is designed for debates and you want the Pakistani Shia to somehow to engage in some deep, thought provoking geo-political analysis and come to the conclusions you want.

It's not going to happen.

Pakistanis, Shia or Sunni, will continue to largely be the same as people all over the world - they are focused on their lives, earning a living, watching sports, celebrating holidays etc etc. The vast majority (Shia & Sunni) will continue to get their information from, and their views molded by, the view presented on media, family, friends, acquaintances etc.

Lastly, you throw out this claim that there is 'silence' - who determines the yardstick for measuring 'lack of silence or silence'? What empirical sources are you using to claim silence or lack of silence on behalf of anywhere from 20 million to 50 million Shia in Pakistan?

Do the same to shia areas, we will see their response, then we will talk.

The Shia militias haven't engaged in the same kind of barbaric terrorism in Pakistan as the TTP, LeJ, JUA etc so why should the Pakistani State do to them what was done to the TTP?

Blasphemous Publication started in 80s. SSP was formed in mid 1985. Violence started after that.

Which is why I oppose the piece of shit blasphemy law. Muslims need to get their tempers under control and act like civilized human beings. Violence in response to literature or mere words is NEVER acceptable.

So please don't put the blame for the violence by the SSP on the 'blasphemous literature' (whatever the hell that is).