Insulting armed forces should be legally banned in Pakistan

[Safriz]

Are you saying that the average Brit is somehow more deserving of democratic self rule and free speech? Or that the average Pakistani is an idiot and too stupid? Let's just say I am perfectly familiar with the outside world, and I have compared the avg Pakistani with people elsewhere, I have faith in my countrymen.

Also... that part in bold is completely wrong. If I called someone an idiot, would it be libel and defamation until I produced an IQ test that confirmed it?

Please look up libel and defamation, you can have both free speech and also limits to free speech with libel laws. Their application is strict, requires a lot of evidence, and certainly doesn't apply to insults.



Why? Do you not believe there are examples of both? I'm sure I don't need to give you examples of civilian leaders, so I'll just give you the example of Ayub Khan, in addition to being a dictator, this morally bankrupt individual oversaw corruption while in office, his family wealth during the mid-60s was estimated by foreign journalists to be in the region of USD10-20m (a lot of money at the time), nepotism whereby he removed highly qualified CSS officers replacing them with cronies, family etc. His corruption also involved taking over or stakes in businesses, the British High Commission commented on how quickly his family developed their wealth in power. In addition, he also went on to oversee the maligning of Fatima Jinnah and the election rigging of the 1965 presidential election. He and his ilk are also credited by some for instigating the Karachi ethnic riots and murder of some opposition.

I'm sure some people on this forum have a rosy image of Ayub, doubtless he comes across as some sort of credible leader who oversaw a lot of progress in the 60s. The truth is altogether worse.



How about everyone behaves and acts professionally and morally at all times, civilian and army? And then we can treat them equally too, you said it yourself armymen are citizens too.



From your own website, here's an example of who is being relieved of their citizenship:
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.c...overnment-cracks-down-on-uk-fighters-in-syria

Those laws are there basically to go after individuals against whom there is very credible evidence that their presence would be damaging, e.g returned fighters from Syria, or people who lied in order to gain citizenship but were later found out.

Whatever you said about Ayub khan may have happened but there's no credible evidence of that.
But there's is credible evidence of the good work he did.
All the Pakistani irrigation system still in use was made in his era . All the major dams such as Turbela and Mangla were built in his era.
No so called democratic government after him could build a dam .
The entire Pakistani industrial base was built in his era , later destroyed by democracy of Bhutto.
Pakistan Atomic energy commission , PCSIR and many research and educational institutions built by him.
The largest dam to this date in Bangladesh was also built by Ayub khan.
Then the public benefit schemes such as housing for the poor. From those who saw Ayub khan era I heard that basic needs and food was dirt cheap. Housing was subsidised by government and even lowest income earners such as richshaw diver could buy a house made by government.
About dictatorship. I rather have a dictator like him than a democracy like Asif Zardari.
And yes Pakistani people are too corrupt and stupid to have the right to vote.
I don't see any British voters selling their vote for a plate of rice.
This happens abundantly in Pakistan.
In fact most votes casters either have no choice as they are tenants on landlords lands and have to vote for him or whoever told by him. Others vote for the highest bidder or just zaat biradri .
That's why when you sit on your high chair thinking that Pakistanis are West European and should have the same system of government, also look at the 100 rupee voters . Voting for corrupted and convicted politicians and the stolen manhole covers.
None of which happens in Europe.

I agree but on one condition.

Like America, military should stop interfering in politics and stop doing coup detat and only stay at borders just like American army does.

Failing that, be prepared for same criticism that politicians face.

By the way, it's the generals people have a problem with who interfere with proper functioning of the country. The soldiers everyone respects regardless of which dictator is in season.



Whose job it is? Or should little children be allowed to lose limbs and die horribly?

I also agree but on one condition.
Military should stop interfering in politics when same as Americans , Pakistani people stop selling their votes for a plate of biryani and 100 rupees. Deal?

 

[mudas777]

Accountability is one thing insulting is another. Working for armed forces are like any other jobs and no one deserves to be insulted while doing his/her job. There are always going to be short comings and high expectations and goal posts are changed on weekly basis, however expectations should be managed. Merit and professionalism must be the criteria for promotion and the sole job should be to protect the motherland.
At the same token we need some mechanism by which we can clean up our politics of leaches who are with every government and are uneducated and corrupt. Similarly media needs to be brought under the control which works for the country and not on the foreign payroll and pushing hidden agenda.
One can't point finger at the armed forces alone for the past mistakes while politicians and media goes scot free from criticism for their parts.

 

[SQ8]

As long as we can differentiate between insults and criticism - quashing criticism under the guise of “insult” will result in only enhancing our quasi-banana republic standings and lead to further loss of merit and accountability of military leadership.

 

[Handshake]

Not agree.
Cricterism must be allowed,no one is saint but we must be carefull with words and demand for right reason.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Whatever you said about Ayub khan may have happened but there's no credible evidence of that.
But there's is credible evidence of the good work he did.
All the Pakistani irrigation system still in use was made in his era . All the major dams such as Turbela and Mangla were built in his era.
No so called democratic government after him could build a dam .
The entire Pakistani industrial base was built in his era , later destroyed by democracy of Bhutto.
Pakistan Atomic energy commission , PCSIR and many research and educational institutions built by him.
The largest dam to this date in Bangladesh was also built by Ayub khan.
Then the public benefit schemes such as housing for the poor. From those who saw Ayub khan era I heard that basic needs and food was dirt cheap. Housing was subsidised by government and even lowest income earners such as richshaw diver could buy a house made by government.
About dictatorship. I rather have a dictator like him than a democracy like Asif Zardari.
And yes Pakistani people are too corrupt and stupid to have the right to vote.
I don't see any British voters selling their vote for a plate of rice.
This happens abundantly in Pakistan.
In fact most votes casters either have no choice as they are tenants on landlords lands and have to vote for him or whoever told by him. Others vote for the highest bidder or just zaat biradri .
That's why when you sit on your high chair thinking that Pakistanis are West European and should have the same system of government, also look at the 100 rupee voters . Voting for corrupted and convicted politicians and the stolen manhole covers.

Let's just highlight that part in bold. There is our fundamental disagreement.

I frankly don't want to go through every point you made and address/unpack some of it within the context of the thread. But I've been here arguing from the beginning, from the very first line I posted in this thread, that if you have democracy, you need free speech.

But you clearly don't want democracy, hence what use is political free speech to you? So it's futile arguing this with you if you are just pro-dictatorship and take a moralistic (not logic based) approach to criticism of the army.

I'll just end the debate here until some common debate ground is found.

None of which happens in Europe.

Democracy's a process, and it's never been allowed to run its course in Pakistan. We've never had one single PM in our entire history complete a tenure. They were either pawns of dictators removed at will, brought down by new dictators, or removed by underhanded political tactics long used by the army and political establishment.

With that fact in mind, how on earth can you ascribe the poor performance of so-called democratic civilian governments in Pakistan to the outcomes of true functional democracies?

Also, on an aside, you mentioned British voters. I can assure you Pakistanis are just as capable of democratic self rule as the Brits. Recently the British people voted for Brexit, the single most useless and damaging act of self-harm in modern political history. Nobody's here's talking along your lines as a result, at best we saw the rightful questioning of the efficacy of referenda.

 

[I S I]

 

[Joe Shearer]

Democracy isn't easy, @Safriz. You have to work at it; you have to work on it ALL THE TIME. Even after 70 years, you can cock up. Look at the loony tunes played by my other Indian 'friends' here. And on StratFor, for that matter. They talk democracy, and then they insist that their toxic cocktail of racism, Islamophobia and Pakistan-hating is the only nationalism allowed, and anybody who doesn't agree is anti-national.

There is more than one fool taking that line. Look at Sambit Patra in action; he's doing the exact same thing.

https://www.outlookindia.com/websit...campaign=campaign_name&utm_content=&utm_term=

The point? The connection with the subject of this thread?

1. You can't define nationalism. Your subjective opinion cannot be law.
2. If you can't define nationalism, you can't define anti-nationalism.
3. If you can't define anti-nationalism, you can't recognise an attack on an institution as an anti-national act.
4. If you can't recognise an attack on an institution as an anti-national act, you can't take into account any statement or news item or action as an insult to an institution.

 

[fisher1]

Also, on an aside, you mentioned British voters. I can assure you Pakistanis are just as capable of democratic self rule as the Brits. Recently the British people voted for Brexit, the single most useless and damaging act of self-harm in modern political history. Nobody's here's talking along your lines as a result, at best we saw the rightful questioning of the efficacy of referenda.

This is the result of Gora slavery syndrome, we're still suffering from it and you can see it in some people even some intelligent mature people.

I laugh when someone says Pakistanis are stupid compared to Westerners and incapable of electing their leaders so dictators should be imposed. I have seen Westerners, they're so dumb idiots eating tide pods, fish tank cleaners, licking toilet seats, fighting over toilet papers instead of using water to wash their a$$es - i kid you not, there was a discussion on my forum about what to use since toilet papers are in short supply. I said just effing use water, we Muslims use it since forever. They would rather use newspapers and other dirty items than water.

The reason is we have very low worth of our people. The glitter of West is why those idiots look so smart to us but the fact is Western countries didn't have traitors as their leaders who destroyed their countries. Whereas just about every Muslim country had American puppets in power and they sent us to stone ages on purpose.

I don't know how someone tells me Westerners are smarter than us when their elected choices are Donald Trump and Boris Johnson. Yet their military doesn't suffer from a Messiah complex throwing elected governments to save the country.

Oh and they have stronger enemies than India so that excuse about Pakistan needing military dictators for security is nonsense.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan should follow US model on this matter.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1257378702314307592

I don't think the problem is criticism itself, it's the outlandish conspiracy theories that are the problem and that is a larger issue with the Pakistani media - a lack of professionalism and proper training on reporting the news objectively.

Most of our anchors nowadays are the equivalent of Fox News opinion hosts - they don't report facts objectively, they report gossip, rumor and unsubstantiated nonsense.

The whole 'Imran Khan is selected' - no evidence that the 2018 elections were rigged.

'Imran Khan's team is selected by the Army' - no evidence that is the case and IK should resign if it is, otherwise he needs to take responsibility and HE IS taking responsibility for decisions made under his government, unlike the PMLN & PPP.

Etc etc. you get the picture.

What I am more interested in discussing is the possibility of banning hate speech and racism, such as that used by PTM leaders, and a broader messaging campaign in society to minimize the derogatory jokes and comments we engage in without thinking (about Pashtun, Muhajir, Sindhis, Punjabis, Christians etc).

or removed by underhanded political tactics long used by the army and political establishmen

Except for Nawaz Sharif - he was on track to complete his term until the Panama Paper leaks and the investigations they triggered. He also made a complete mess of defending his own case.

You can't blame the Army for that.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Spare the military, spoil your freedom....

In this era of 5th gen warfare media contents need to be scrutinized...

 

[Jungibaaz]

Except for Nawaz Sharif - he was on track to complete his term until the Panama Paper leaks and the investigations they triggered. He also made a complete mess of defending his own case.

You can't blame the Army for that.

We already discussed his case and what a shambles it was in terms of jurisprudence.

But sure, let’s just assume he’s the odd one out for now. Let’s see if making this assumption works again. Hopefully we won’t be in for revelations at a future date.

 

[Safriz]

We already discussed his case and what a shambles it was in terms of jurisprudence.

But sure, let’s just assume he’s the odd one out for now. Let’s see if making this assumption works again. Hopefully we won’t be in for revelations at a future date.

Nawaz Sharif in his first term was removed by Benazir and her countrywide protests.
Then she got removed by Nawaz Sharif conspiring with Ghulam Ishaq khan.
Only in 1998 Nawaz Sharif was truly removed by Army and rightly so.
Due to his love affair with India he cost us Kargil and the entire Kashmir.
If he had backed the military for kargil, the situation on Kashmir today had been very different.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is the result of Gora slavery syndrome, we're still suffering from it and you can see it in some people even some intelligent mature people.

I laugh when someone says Pakistanis are stupid compared to Westerners and incapable of electing their leaders so dictators should be imposed. I have seen Westerners, they're so dumb idiots eating tide pods, fish tank cleaners, licking toilet seats, fighting over toilet papers instead of using water to wash their a$$es - i kid you not, there was a discussion on my forum about what to use since toilet papers are in short supply. I said just effing use water, we Muslims use it since forever. They would rather use newspapers and other dirty items than water.

The reason is we have very low worth of our people. The glitter of West is why those idiots look so smart to us but the fact is Western countries didn't have traitors as their leaders who destroyed their countries. Whereas just about every Muslim country had American puppets in power and they sent us to stone ages on purpose.

I don't know how someone tells me Westerners are smarter than us when their elected choices are Donald Trump and Boris Johnson. Yet their military doesn't suffer from a Messiah complex throwing elected governments to save the country.

Oh and they have stronger enemies than India so that excuse about Pakistan needing military dictators for security is nonsense.

I don't know if it is the Gora slavery syndrome or just a lack of patience or lack of belief that our system will evolve over time.

The presence of political dynasties & 'electables' (who usually have little to no risk of losing elections because of their feudal backgrounds and control over their constituencies) does not help. I doubt the PPP and PMLN are going to come out of the control of the Zardaris or Sharif's for another few generations - they've got their family members lined up to take control over their respective parties, supported by spineless politicians in their parties who either have no ambition or are comfortable feeding off the dynastic political teat.

Other than that, people are equally stupid everywhere - Westerners no more or less than Pakistanis.

 

[Safriz]

I don't know if it is the Gora slavery syndrome or just a lack of patience or lack of belief that our system will evolve over time.

The presence of political dynasties & 'electables' (who usually have little to no risk of losing elections because of their feudal backgrounds and control over their constituencies) does not help. I doubt the PPP and PMLN are going to come out of the control of the Zardaris or Sharif's for another few generations - they've got their family members lined up.

Other than that, people are equally stupid everywhere - Westerners no more or less than Pakistanis.

People here sit on their high chairs and compare Pakistan with UK Europe and USA.
Both France and UK first abolished feudalism then introduced democracy.
Try that in Pakistan and people themselves will fight and die for their feudal lords.
The entire Balochistan is an example.
That's why my stance, Pakistan is not Europe and people are too immature , and military interference in politics is necessary.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

People here sit on their high chairs and compare Pakistan with UK Europe and USA.
Both France and UK first abolished feudalism then introduced democracy.
Try that in Pakistan and people themselves will fight and die for their feudal lords.
The entire Balochistan is an example.

And that is a problem that doesn't get addressed enough when we discuss the flaws in Pakistan's democratic system.

Yes, the Army manipulating the political process is harmful, but so are the feudal elite that no one dare challenge in their respective constituencies.

The pro-democracy/anti-Army lot have even made a 'democratic martyr' out of Akbar Bugti, that foul man who imprisoned, tortured, murdered and banished so many of his own tribe and family so he could retain control of the tribal lands and royalties from the gas pumped out.

It's literally the wild west - where is the debate and discussion on reforms to remove this malaise? To bring justice to their victims?