INS Kolkata, navy’s most powerful warship, to be delivered next month

[Agent_47]

And lastly,as per this report,it needs ~400 sailors and officers to run a single P 15A DDG which means our ship building industry has much more catch up to do with the NATO ship builders in terms of automation.
We wonder why does a western ship like Type 45 DDG costs more.One reason being increased automation of their warships which although results in greater acquisition costs but they are cheaper to operate in the long run due to reduced numbers of crew needed.Less crew members mean increased operational readiness,you need less space for their accommodations,less quantity of foods and other consumables necessary means again less space needed.Thus you can make your ships sample,accommodation facilities will be less cramped and more comfortable and more over you can lug in more weapons and fuel into the hull.
I hope our Naval Design Bureau takes these matters into accounts while designing the next batches of warships.

The crew complement of the Project 17A will be reduced from the existing 257 (including 35 officers) to about 150 by using high levels of automation, which will reduce the operational costs by around 20 per cent and result in higher operational availability of the warships.

CCNS finally kickstarts Indian Navy’s Project 17A

 

[Sam Manekshaw]

With AESA radar, 16 Brahmos cruise missiles, 64 SAMs, and many tarpedo, here comes the beast.

I hope next class comes with pure offensive capability...and when these will work in team you know what gonna happen.."samanewaleki pili ho jayegi"

 

[cnleio]

Now what's the situation of Israel's Barak-8 missile ?
Did INS Kolkata get medium range anti-aircraft missiles, how many Barak-8 VLS for Kolkata ? Ths.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thanks for this news Mike.The P 15A DDGs will be among the last few warships of India that have been constructed using the outdated techniques where at first the hulls and superstructure are completed,then sections of the hulls are cut open to install the propulsion,driving and electrical sub systems and then the hulls are welded back together.All these coupled with the effed up non-existent work culture in the MoD owned ship building industries takes much longer times to complete an warship which ultimately results in operational deficiency and shortfall in IN.

Hopefully,with the latest computerised modular ship building infrastructures coming online in GRSE and MDL along with HSL will cut short the delay in the next P 15B DDG and P 17A FFG constructions.
Besides,I also hope that the superstructure of next batches of warships are constructed with light weight carbon fibre composite materials like GRSE is doing with the last two of the four Project P 28 Kamorta class corvettes and since India has prior production engineering knowledge of fabricating carbon based structures.
And I do hope there is enough space left in these DDGs to refit them with a 10-12 sell VLS for Nirbhay LACMs when it's inducted into service.

And lastly,as per this report,it needs ~400 sailors and officers to run a single P 15A DDG which means our ship building industry has much more catch up to do with the NATO ship builders in terms of automation.
We wonder why does a western ship like Type 45 DDG costs more.One reason being increased automation of their warships which although results in greater acquisition costs but they are cheaper to operate in the long run due to reduced numbers of crew needed.Less crew members mean increased operational readiness,you need less space for their accommodations,less quantity of foods and other consumables necessary means again less space needed.Thus you can make your ships sample,accommodation facilities will be less cramped and more comfortable and more over you can lug in more weapons and fuel into the hull.
I hope our Naval Design Bureau takes these matters into accounts while designing the next batches of warships.

As @Agent_47 pointed out, all of this is pretty much being done:

The Project 17A FFG’s superstructure will also make extensive use of composites similar to what’s now being done on board the four Project 28 Kamorta-class ASW corvettes now under fabrication by GRSE. The decision to fast-track the project 17A FFG construction programme comes close on the heels of a major upgrade
undertaken by MDL of its integrated shipbuilding processes,

CCNS finally kickstarts Indian Navy’s Project 17A

 

[Mike_Brando]

Now what's the situation of Israel's Barak-8 missile ?
Did INS Kolkata get medium range anti-aircraft missiles, how many Barak-8 VLS for Kolkata ? Ths.

It will have a 4*16 cell VLS specifically for 48 Barak-8 MRSAM and 16 Barak-1 SRSAM plus it'll have 2*8 cell UVLM for 16 Brahmos mk-1 anti-shipping/land attack cruise missiles as of now....

 

[Ceonwulf]

Project 15A will eventually cost the navy Rs 11,662 crore. At Rs 3,900 crore per destroyer, that is barely one-third what the UK’s Royal Navy has paid for its new Type-45 Daring-class destroyers --- Rs 11,000 crore per vessel.

Why does India always feel the need to compare themselves to Britain?

The reason a Type 45 destroyer costs more than a Kolkata class destroyer is because it (Type 45) is much larger and is equipped with a very high level of automation and advanced technology.

Yet many regard the Kolkata as more versatile and capable than the Daring.

More versatile yes, but more capable? That depends on what you are talking about. Because in terms of air-defence, the Type 45 wins hands down and is much more capable than the Kolkata class.

Barak 1 and Barak 8 are not as advanced as the Aster 15 and 30!

But overall, Kolkata is a very beautiful and powerful ship.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why does India always feel the need to compare themselves to Britain?

The Daring class is amongst the most powerful new generation destroyers on the planet and I guess it makes sense to benchmark the P-15A but I agree it is a futile and unneeded exercise.

 

[Mike_Brando]

The Daring class is amongst the most powerful new generation destroyers on the planet and I guess it makes sense to benchmark the P-15A but I agree it is a futile and unneeded exercise.

Buddy i have question for you.Can't we just order a combination of Aster15/30 from MBDA or do we have some restrictions on buying this missile?I mean personally i would like to see the Aster family of missile on Indian warships rather than the Barak series.What's your take in this matter?

 

[Reviewer21]

Aa aa aaja, ahahaha aaja ahahaha aaja aa aa aa

 

[Abingdonboy]

Buddy i have question for you.Can't we just order a combination of Aster15/30 from MBDA or do we have some restrictions on buying this missile?I mean personally i would like to see the Aster family of missile on Indian warships rather than the Barak series.What's your take in this matter?

The Aster missiles are excellent no doubt and IF the IN wanted to go down this route then it could but the Barak series offers more in terms of industrial benefits to India as a whole. Whilst in some instances I am for buying off th shelf from abroad, one has to draw the line somewhere and start to build at home through ToT, JVs and domestic R&D. India can't be the world's largest importer forever. Long term the Baraks series offers more to India and are no slouches themselves.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Thanks for this news Mike.The P 15A DDGs will be among the last few warships of India that have been constructed using the outdated techniques where at first the hulls and superstructure are completed,then sections of the hulls are cut open to install the propulsion,driving and electrical sub systems and then the hulls are welded back together.All these coupled with the effed up non-existent work culture in the MoD owned ship building industries takes much longer times to complete an warship which ultimately results in operational deficiency and shortfall in IN.

Hopefully,with the latest computerised modular ship building infrastructures coming online in GRSE and MDL along with HSL will cut short the delay in the next P 15B DDG and P 17A FFG constructions.
Besides,I also hope that the superstructure of next batches of warships are constructed with light weight carbon fibre composite materials like GRSE is doing with the last two of the four Project P 28 Kamorta class corvettes and since India has prior production engineering knowledge of fabricating carbon based structures.
And I do hope there is enough space left in these DDGs to refit them with a 10-12 sell VLS for Nirbhay LACMs when it's inducted into service.

And lastly,as per this report,it needs ~400 sailors and officers to run a single P 15A DDG which means our ship building industry has much more catch up to do with the NATO ship builders in terms of automation.
We wonder why does a western ship like Type 45 DDG costs more.One reason being increased automation of their warships which although results in greater acquisition costs but they are cheaper to operate in the long run due to reduced numbers of crew needed.Less crew members mean increased operational readiness,you need less space for their accommodations,less quantity of foods and other consumables necessary means again less space needed.Thus you can make your ships sample,accommodation facilities will be less cramped and more comfortable and more over you can lug in more weapons and fuel into the hull.
I hope our Naval Design Bureau takes these matters into accounts while designing the next batches of warships.

Not all of your contentions there are valid.

As someone familiar with Ship-Construction methods both in the Old and New ways; let me assure you that the Old way, there was not major cutting open of the Hull and/or Superstructure to carry out what is technically known as the "fitting out" phase. The required openings are/were left open to permit the installation of the necessary equipment and then closed up permanently OR as is often the case; fitted with Hatchways/W.T. Covers so that later removal/replacement of equipment can be carried out during Refits/Repairs/Refurbishments.
So it is nowhere near the scenario that you are conjuring up or fantasising about.

Now; the merits of Modular Construction methods: that is certainly faster but with some caveats. If your ideas of Modular Construction is based solely on reading/watching how Merchant Ship construction is carried out, then that exact same method is not applicable to Warship Construction. In Merchant Ships, there is a great deal of replication/similarity w.r.t. compartments, which lends itself very well to prefab modules. This method is taken to its culmination in construction of Passenger Liners, where hundreds of compartments/spaces/cabins are identical, thus lending itself to construction like "Lego" blocks. Warship Compartments/Spaces are relatively different from each other except for parts of the living spaces. So that degree of modularity is not sought or achieved.

Now; about automation. Automation has its pluses and minuses. Especially in case of Battle Damage or Vulnerability. The Western Model is not directly applicable in the Indian Scenario. Mainly because of costs; both of Equipment as well as of Manpower. In the Western Model, Manpower costs are very high vis-a-vis Eqpt costs and somewhat reversed in the Indian Model. Then do not overlook the redundancy factor. With more Manpower, one can replace a man/or men lost, more easily. Actually Men can even replace Equipment/Automation that has been damaged or failed. As an example; there have great discussions here about the 4-man crew in the Arjun vis-a-vis the 3-man crew in the T-90 (or other Russian designs) with an autoloader. The autoloader represents automation. Great, when it works efficiently. And a big problem if it does not. That apart, the 4th man is another asset to replace any casualty, even without that emergent condition; he is a person who can substitute somebody else.
On this point; note that a Merchant Ship (even a Supership of a 200,000 tons) sails/navigates with just 2 or 3 persons on the Bridge. For the exact same Navigational Tasks, a Warship can easily utilise 3 or 4 times that number, in a smaller space on a smaller ship.
Why? To achieve redundancy. The Automation/Eqpt can be shut down simply if power is lost, but human beings do not need much power to function; albeit in a different (and sometimes even) better way!

In short, your concerns may well be misplaced; mainly because of lack of information.

 

[IND151]

P-15As will have the AK-630 and Barak-1 for CIWS whilst the P-15Bs will have a new gun based CIWS for which a contest is running as we speak.

Kindly give source for claim.

Not all of your contentions there are valid.

As someone familiar with Ship-Construction methods both in the Old and New ways; let me assure you that the Old way, there was not major cutting open of the Hull and/or Superstructure to carry out what is technically known as the "fitting out" phase. The required openings are/were left open to permit the installation of the necessary equipment and then closed up permanently OR as is often the case; fitted with Hatchways/W.T. Covers so that later removal/replacement of equipment can be carried out during Refits/Repairs/Refurbishments.
So it is nowhere near the scenario that you are conjuring up or fantasising about.

Now; the merits of Modular Construction methods: that is certainly faster but with some caveats. If your ideas of Modular Construction is based solely on reading/watching how Merchant Ship construction is carried out, then that exact same method is not applicable to Warship Construction. In Merchant Ships, there is a great deal of replication/similarity w.r.t. compartments, which lends itself very well to prefab modules. This method is taken to its culmination in construction of Passenger Liners, where hundreds of compartments/spaces/cabins are identical, thus lending itself to construction like "Lego" blocks. Warship Compartments/Spaces are relatively different from each other except for parts of the living spaces. So that degree of modularity is not sought or achieved.

Now; about automation. Automation has its pluses and minuses. Especially in case of Battle Damage or Vulnerability. The Western Model is not directly applicable in the Indian Scenario. Mainly because of costs; both of Equipment as well as of Manpower. In the Western Model, Manpower costs are very high vis-a-vis Eqpt costs and somewhat reversed in the Indian Model. Then do not overlook the redundancy factor. With more Manpower, one can replace a man/or men lost, more easily. Actually Men can even replace Equipment/Automation that has been damaged or failed. As an example; there have great discussions here about the 4-man crew in the Arjun vis-a-vis the 3-man crew in the T-90 (or other Russian designs) with an autoloader. The autoloader represents automation. Great, when it works efficiently. And a big problem if it does not. That apart, the 4th man is another asset to replace any casualty, even without that emergent condition; he is a person who can substitute somebody else.
On this point; note that a Merchant Ship (even a Supership of a 200,000 tons) sails/navigates with just 2 or 3 persons on the Bridge. For the exact same Navigational Tasks, a Warship can easily utilise 3 or 4 times that number, in a smaller space on a smaller ship.
Why? To achieve redundancy. The Automation/Eqpt can be shut down simply if power is lost, but human beings do not need much power to function; albeit in a different (and sometimes even) better way!

In short, your concerns may well be misplaced; mainly because of lack of information.

Thanks for this news Mike.The P 15A DDGs will be among the last few warships of India that have been constructed using the outdated techniques where at first the hulls and superstructure are completed,then sections of the hulls are cut open to install the propulsion,driving and electrical sub systems and then the hulls are welded back together.All these coupled with the effed up non-existent work culture in the MoD owned ship building industries takes much longer times to complete an warship which ultimately results in operational deficiency and shortfall in IN.
Hopefully,with the latest computerised modular ship building infrastructures coming online in GRSE and MDL along with HSL will cut short the delay in the next P 15B DDG and P 17A FFG constructions.
Besides,I also hope that the superstructure of next batches of warships are constructed with light weight carbon fibre composite materials like GRSE is doing with the last two of the four Project P 28 Kamorta class corvettes and since India has prior production engineering knowledge of fabricating carbon based structures.
And I do hope there is enough space left in these DDGs to refit them with a 10-12 sell VLS for Nirbhay LACMs when it's inducted into service.
And lastly,as per this report,it needs ~400 sailors and officers to run a single P 15A DDG which means our ship building industry has much more catch up to do with the NATO ship builders in terms of automation.
We wonder why does a western ship like Type 45 DDG costs more.One reason being increased automation of their warships which although results in greater acquisition costs but they are cheaper to operate in the long run due to reduced numbers of crew needed.Less crew members mean increased operational readiness,you need less space for their accommodations,less quantity of foods and other consumables necessary means again less space needed.Thus you can make your ships sample,accommodation facilities will be less cramped and more comfortable and more over you can lug in more weapons and fuel into the hull.
I hope our Naval Design Bureau takes these matters into accounts while designing the next batches of warships.

But sources suggest otherwise; GRSE and MDL already have been modernized.

A humming construction site in Mumbai’s Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) holds the promise of a new era in warship building in India. Everything about this emerging new shipyard is enormous: the 200-metre-long workshop; a Goliath crane that dwarfs everything around; and anexpansive “wet basin”, which is an enclosed harbour that will comfortably house two large warships.

This is MDL’s new Rs 826 crore “modular” shipyard that is expected to slash down the time taken to build warships for the Indian Navy. Defence shipyards currently take over ten years to build major warships like destroyers, frigates and corvettes. When the new yard is commissioned in June 2013, frigates will be built in 60 months; destroyers will take 72 months.

Building warships faster is crucial for the navy. Its Maritime Capability Perspective Plan (MCPP) of 2005 envisions a 160-ship navy, with 90 capital warships like aircraft carriers, destroyers, frigates and corvettes. Today, however, the navy has just 134 ships, with less than half the destroyers and frigates it needs. Bridging this gap of 26 ships, while also replacing warships that are being decommissioned after completing their 30-40 year service lives, requires a major boost in indigenous build capability.

To achieve this, MDL --- along with the other big defence shipyard, Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) --- is abandoning traditional shipbuilding. That involves welding a hull together and launching it into water, after which swarms of craftsmen painstakingly work in the warship’s cramped compartments, installing propulsion gear, electrically equipment, weapons, sensors and hundreds of kilometres of pipes and wiring. This is a slow process.

Instead, construction will now be like a giant Lego game: convenient 300-ton blocks will be built separately, and then assembled together into a complete warship. Each block will be fabricated in a well-lit, ventilated workshop with multi-level access, and will be complete with all the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that run through a ship. Each block must dovetail precisely with its neighbouring block, every wire, pipe and compartment coming together in perfect alignment.

PK Bhattacharjee, General Manager of the Mazagon Modernisation Project (MMP), who is conducting Business Standard through an exclusive, pre-inauguration tour of the shipyard, explains what happens next. After a block is completed in the worker-friendly environment of the modular workshop, the workshop’s roof is retracted and the rail-mounted Goliath crane reaches in and lifts out the 300-tonne block. It then transports it to the slipway where it takes its place in the warship that is taking shape. After about 20 blocks come together, the 3000-tonne semi-built warship is launched into the water and towed to the “wet basin”, where the superstructure, and weapons and sensors are put in.

“The capability to lift 300 tonnes is what makes modular shipbuilding possible. For decades, we have worked with 40-tonne cranes,” explains Battacharjee.

The first warships that will emerge from this process are 7 frigates of Project 17A. MDL will build four frigates, while GRSE will build three. The Project 17A frigates will be outwardly similar to their predecessors, the three Shivalik-class frigates of Project 17, which MDL has just completed. But modular shipbuilding is expected to ensure that Project 17A is completed must faster.

Back in MDL’s corporate office the new chairman, Rear Admiral (Retired) Rahul Kumar Shrawat, explains that the technological challenge of modular shipbuilding lies in designing each 300-tonne block so that it is fully kitted and fits exactly into the next. Since this process is new to India, Fincantieri, an Italian shipbuilder, will provide consultancy for the new design process.
“MDL’s board, in coordination with our partner shipyard, GRSE, will decide on the design consultancy for Project 17A. It will be a shipyard’s decision. The navy has specified only that integrated (modular) construction must take place,” says Shrawat.

Dutch company, Royal Haskoning, has functioned as prime consultant for the MMP, which has taken five years. Haskoning has prepared the design, organised site surveys and geotechnical investigations and is now supervising construction. Hyderabad-based Nagarjuna Construction has done the civil works, including the 8000 square metre workshop with a retractable roof.

A key construction challenge has been the Goliath crane, a Rs 89 crore, 2200-tonne structure that traverses on rails and extends 138 metres across the yard. Designed by Konecrane of Finland, the Goliath crane was physically erected by Fagioli of Italy. Kolkata-based company, McNally Bharat, was the Indian contractor.

Most pleasing to MDL officials is the third element of the MMP: a new wet basin that offers 25,000 square metres of berthing space for under-construction warships. MDL has long functioned with just the 14,000 square metreKasara Wet Basin, which was built in 1774 to service warships of the East India Company. But, with three projects simultaneously ongoing, MDL had to berth under-construction warships at the Naval Dockyard, several kilometres away, transporting labour, stores and machinery to the naval facility everyday.

From next month, the wet basin and the Goliath crane will start functioning. The rest of the workshop is scheduled to be inaugurated in June 2013.
New yards, techniques, to speed up warship building

 

[HariPrasad]

Land attack capability is limited, 300 km is not enough
Hope they add nirbhay later.

Brahmos is not just 300 KM Missile.

 

[jaiind]

Brahmos is not just 300 KM Missile.

how much is the actual range of brahmos??

 

[kaykay]

how much is the actual range of brahmos??

Officially 290KM for obvious reasons but actual range is classified. There are reports(very reliable) which says that India is modifying Brahmos which will be able to hit 300-500 km range.
India Modifies Brahmos Missile With New Nav System | Defense | RIA Novosti