Indonesia Defence Forum

[MarveL]

JAT - Smoke test @JP

 

[ardezzo]

most infantry batallion units right now had transport platoon as integral unit to cater their mobility movements, thats what a sharp contrast to the past in which most deployed by foots and the mobility is very restricted. Right now, ditbekang served to cater the mobility of units on strategic deployments at far away places.

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bonus

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What about TNI 965 truck order to Isuzu? have they all been delivered?

True that, confirmed. Thus the use of SS2-v4 for DMR role is justified.
SS2-v4
View attachment 354659

SS2-v1
View attachment 354660

While SS2-v4 HB
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I notice that the HB version have shorter effective range

 

[pr1v4t33r]

Effective range=500m" like you see in the above picture is way..way..too optimist..because the bullet itself has bottleneck effect on rifle performance

Then how PINDAD can justify their rifles specs if their rifle can't deliver what they promise? Extensive field test must have been done before if they are convident enough promoting them at their official website.

 

[mengkom]

One recent case showing SS1-v1 using MU5-TJ 5,56 mm ammo can easily penetrate USMC bulletproof vest. This could demonstrate how 5,56 can also be designed to provide higher stopping power.

nah..IMHO it proves nothing
the article does not state in under what circumstances those thing happened
what is the range? how many bullets fired? did the ceramic plates is also attached to the vest?

MU5TJ is produce using NATO SS109 standard
it is 62 grains, relatively fast flying bullet with steel penetrator on its head
meanwhile MICH helmet and IOTV vest (without ballistic ceramic plate) is only rated Stanag IIIA which means protection against direct fire from .357 pistol
to defeat kevlar, speed is more crucial than stopping power, that's why even those tiny 31grain 5.7mm
bullet fired from P90 submachine gun is able to defeat the same STANAG IIIA vest at 200 meters!

so that result doesn't surprise me at all. it's not an odd thing either. Any rifle with comparable specification will produce the same result if fired the same bullet..
and the bullet has been used around the world since 1970s

i'm not trying to undermine TNI
but i think we should be more critical about what we read on the internet
it is better when we proud about something real rather than BS
we're not that particular ID from certain neighbor who proud about anything in their country even though it is BS

Then how PINDAD can justify their rifles specs if their rifle can't deliver what they promise? Extensive field test must have been done before if they are convident enough promoting them at their official website.

that's just marketing claim
everyone does that.. you know, there is always a tiny-miny "terms and condition applied" sentence somewhere in the brochure
that's why every country always perform their own test before they buy a certain weapon
we have saying "semua tukang kecap pasti bilang kecapnya paling manis sedunia akherat"

 

[Nike]

 

[pr1v4t33r]

nah..IMHO it proves nothing. the article does not state in under what circumstances those thing happened. what is the range? how many bullets fired? did the ceramic plates is also attached to the vest?

It was reported that the zeroing carried out at 25 meter range with 1.75 cm steel plate attached to the vest. Both USMC and Australian contingent failed to show similar result using their own rifles. While that might prove nothing, but at least we know that different riffle setting and different ammo, even when using the same 5,56 mm could provide different result while carried out in similar environtment. One could perform much better than the others.

 

[mengkom]

It was reported that the zeroing carried out at 25 meter range with 1.75 cm steel plate attached to the vest. Both USMC and Australian contingent failed to show similar result. While that might prove nothing, but at least we know that different riffle setting and different ammo, even when using the same 5,56 mm could provide different result while carried out in similar environtment.

the USMC uses M4, that is a carbine with shorter barrel..meanwhile TNI uses full size rifle
currently, USMC using Mk318 standard, that is 3 generation later than our bullet
it is made based on middle-east warfare experience..their bullet is optimized not for speed, but for increased stopping power when fired from carbine barrel at 300 yards expected range
just like i said, to defeat kevlar, speed is more crucial than stopping power

so, the USMC weapons and bullet is not comparable to TNI's.. it's like comparing mountain bike to a tricycle..
we can't determine which is best as both system has a different purpose..

not enough data regarding australian contingent

 

[pr1v4t33r]

so, the USMC weapons and bullet is not comparable to TNI's.. it's like comparing mountain bike to a tricycle.. both system has a different purpose

Then similar comparison could also be drawn regarding SS2-V4 parasniper for DMR with SS2-v1. While it might not quite optimal but still can provide fair amount of advantage in that role.

Of course whether TNI want to adopt that en masse is another matter.

 

[mengkom]

Then similar comparison could also be drawn regarding SS2-V4 for DMR with SS2-v1. While it's might not quite optimal but still can provide fair amount of advantage in that role.

i rest my case. you are going backward in this discussion.

you can read my previous posts, why i think SS-2 V4 is not optimal for DMR role
why i suggest SS-3 to fill that role instead
also why SS-2 V4 is still valuable for TNI but not as DMR, rather an Infantry Automatic Rifle (like USMC's IAR M27)

 

[Su-35SM3 Flanker-N]

DMR just not need range but stopping power and penetration power must be calculated too. High velocity caliber like 5,56 NATO will lose more kinetic energy when traverse at long distance due too lighter mass (well it all depends on type of gunpowder you are using and other natural factor)

^^ i stand by my argument
there is a reason why anywhere in the world, no one uses 5.56mm rifle as Designated Marksmen Rifle even though it will simplify logistical problems tremendously
it simply don't work

we always bragged about how well SS-2V4 perform in shooting competition like AASAM/AARM
but in real world scenario, it is a different story entirely

what matter most is not range i.e. whether or not the bullet will reach its target
what matter most is terminal ballistic, i.e. whether or not the bullet will reach its target while still retaining enough kinetic energy to knock down your enemy and/or effectively yawing inside your enemy body
* fired from 508mm barrel (longer barrel than SS-2V4), our standard SS109 bullet falls sharply beyond 300 meters
* moreover SS109 cartridges have their best terminal effects at velocities above 2500 feet per second..also when fired from 508mm barrel, the projectile reach this speed below 200 meters!

you see, 5.56 is designed to engage target at relatively short distance.. 200-300 meters is way below what DMR engagement range expected to be
"effective range=500m" like you see in the above picture is way..way..too optimist..because the bullet itself has bottleneck effect on rifle performance

like i said, the heavy barrel in SS-2 V4 is meant to produce tighter grouping and better sustainment at high rate of fire.. it's not optimal for DMR use

As I said, if TNI decides to use SS-3 for squad-level DMR, it's definitely better.

Actually, there are multiple 5,56mm DMR out there, like SDM-R, SAM-R, Mk 12 SPR even L86 LSW, which is originally a squad-level LM, but then repurposed as DMR.

The way 5.56mm DMR is used, is obviously different with how 7,62mm DMR is used. If their fellow soldiers have engaged the enemy with their 5,56mm assault rifle, then the 5,56mm DMR will have distinct advantage in this firefight.

In other words, a 5,56mm DMR man shouldn't act like a 7,62mm DMR man. He is just one of those common soldiers, but with a special weapon.

 

[Nike]

As I said, if TNI decides to use SS-3 for squad-level DMR, it's definitely better.

Actually, there are multiple 5,56mm DMR out there, like SDM-R, SAM-R, Mk 12 SPR even L86 LSW, which is originally a squad-level LM, but then repurposed as DMR.

The way 5.56mm DMR is used, is obviously different with how 7,62mm DMR is used. If their fellow soldiers have engaged the enemy with their 5,56mm assault rifle, then the 5,56mm DMR will have distinct advantage in this firefight.

In other words, a 5,56mm DMR man shouldn't act like a 7,62mm DMR man. He is just one of those common soldiers, but with a special weapon.

now they called it infantry automatic rifle, their function is much or less comparable with BAR in the past. They need to bring the concept of BAR to augmented or replace SAW. IAR concept is emphasize more on precision rather than continuous and rapid but less precise fire support of SAW.

Meanwhile DMR is actually a whole different concept compared to IAR or SAW. .....

 

[afiq0110]

Dizzy... Dizzy... Dizzy... Give some tequilla... That way i can brag having dizziness by drinking... Not by failing to digest the discussion...

Cheers everybody... Nice having some brainer among us...

 

[mandala]

Airbus Helicopters delivers first three AS565 MBe Panther to Indonesia

22 November 2016

• First three of 11 AS565 MBe Panther helicopters handed over to PT Dirgantara Indonesia

• Deliveries to run through to 2018

• AS565 MBe will bring increased mission capabilities, specifically for anti-submarine warfare missions

Marignane – Airbus Helicopters has delivered the first three of the 11 AS565 MBe Panther helicopters to Indonesia, ahead of contract schedule, at a ceremony at Airbus Helicopters’ headquarters in Marignane, in the presence of representatives from Indonesia’s Ministry of Defence and the Indonesian Navy.

This follows the contract signature in late 2014 with PT Dirgantara Indonesia for 11 AS565 MBe helicopters. The delivery of the remaining helicopters will run through to 2018.

“We are excited to witness the handover of the first three AS565 MBe helicopters to our partner today”, said Janick Blanc, Head of the Panther programme at Airbus Helicopters. “The AS565 MBe has been developed using state-of-the-art processes and this enhanced variant of the Panther will benefit from an increased maximum take-off weight at 4,500kg. This will provide increased mission capabilities, specifically for the anti-submarine warfare missions these rotorcraft are expected to perform”, he added.

Under the agreement, Airbus Helicopters will supply the AS565 MBe helicopters to its Indonesia industrial partner PT Dirgantara Indonesia, who will reassemble and outfit these rotorcraft in-country, acting as the design authority. This will notably cover the installation of the anti-submarine warfare (ASW) suite which includes a dipping sonar and torpedo launch systems, allowing the Indonesian Navy to carry out its most demanding missions.

This Indonesian MBe Panther programme is the latest of a long-standing relationship between Airbus Helicopters and PT Dirgantara Indonesia, who celebrated their 40 years of strategic partnership earlier this month. The two companies have delivered more than 190 helicopters together, through joint programmes over the last four decades.

“We have been working with Airbus Helicopters on numerous projects for many years by now, and this milestone today further illustrates the commitment both companies have towards this programme”, said Budi Santoso, CEO and President of PT Dirgantara Indonesia. “We look forward to receiving these green helicopters in Bandung, as we ready to start the installation of the mission equipment, and the subsequent qualification and certification of our future anti-submarine warfare helicopters”, he added.
 
Recognised as one of the world’s most capable light/medium anti-submarine warfare platforms, the AS565 MBe is equipped with two Safran Arriel 2N engines, which enhance the helicopter’s performance in high and hot conditions, while enabling it to achieve a top speed of 165 kt and a range of 780 kilometres. It also boasts a new main gearbox, the latest-generation tail rotor and a 4-axis autopilot that reduces crew workload and makes the most demanding missions easier to perform.

http://www.airbushelicopters.com/we...hree-AS565-MBe-Panther-to-Indonesia_2046.html

 

[pr1v4t33r]

5.56mm Designated Marksman Rifle variations:

http://www.pro-patria.us/designated_marksman/556mm_designated_marksman_rifles

 

[Nike]

Airbus Helicopters delivers first three AS565 MBe Panther to Indonesia

22 November 2016

• First three of 11 AS565 MBe Panther helicopters handed over to PT Dirgantara Indonesia

• Deliveries to run through to 2018

• AS565 MBe will bring increased mission capabilities, specifically for anti-submarine warfare missions

Marignane – Airbus Helicopters has delivered the first three of the 11 AS565 MBe Panther helicopters to Indonesia, ahead of contract schedule, at a ceremony at Airbus Helicopters’ headquarters in Marignane, in the presence of representatives from Indonesia’s Ministry of Defence and the Indonesian Navy.

This follows the contract signature in late 2014 with PT Dirgantara Indonesia for 11 AS565 MBe helicopters. The delivery of the remaining helicopters will run through to 2018.

“We are excited to witness the handover of the first three AS565 MBe helicopters to our partner today”, said Janick Blanc, Head of the Panther programme at Airbus Helicopters. “The AS565 MBe has been developed using state-of-the-art processes and this enhanced variant of the Panther will benefit from an increased maximum take-off weight at 4,500kg. This will provide increased mission capabilities, specifically for the anti-submarine warfare missions these rotorcraft are expected to perform”, he added.

Under the agreement, Airbus Helicopters will supply the AS565 MBe helicopters to its Indonesia industrial partner PT Dirgantara Indonesia, who will reassemble and outfit these rotorcraft in-country, acting as the design authority. This will notably cover the installation of the anti-submarine warfare (ASW) suite which includes a dipping sonar and torpedo launch systems, allowing the Indonesian Navy to carry out its most demanding missions.

This Indonesian MBe Panther programme is the latest of a long-standing relationship between Airbus Helicopters and PT Dirgantara Indonesia, who celebrated their 40 years of strategic partnership earlier this month. The two companies have delivered more than 190 helicopters together, through joint programmes over the last four decades.

“We have been working with Airbus Helicopters on numerous projects for many years by now, and this milestone today further illustrates the commitment both companies have towards this programme”, said Budi Santoso, CEO and President of PT Dirgantara Indonesia. “We look forward to receiving these green helicopters in Bandung, as we ready to start the installation of the mission equipment, and the subsequent qualification and certification of our future anti-submarine warfare helicopters”, he added.
 
Recognised as one of the world’s most capable light/medium anti-submarine warfare platforms, the AS565 MBe is equipped with two Safran Arriel 2N engines, which enhance the helicopter’s performance in high and hot conditions, while enabling it to achieve a top speed of 165 kt and a range of 780 kilometres. It also boasts a new main gearbox, the latest-generation tail rotor and a 4-axis autopilot that reduces crew workload and makes the most demanding missions easier to perform.

http://www.airbushelicopters.com/we...hree-AS565-MBe-Panther-to-Indonesia_2046.html

so much for made in Bandung, indeed