India's self-goal: How we made Pakistan our equal

[Joe Shearer]

Oh boy that evidence game again,

"I went to UN, you didn't", "I whine about it in every single meeting with every single dignity around the world, you don't"... and so it goes.

We are back to square one.

Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA, TTP... etc. etc.

Now do we want to move forward or not?



Chest thumping or not sponsoring cross-border terrorism?

If the latter, you are wrong. India's support for cross-border terrorism has never diminished. There were small phases where it was not that prominent, but it never stopped. Arming MQM, BLA and then early 2000s TTP etc...

And I say it again, we are not moving forward an inch. You want to have peace? Drop this "Pakistan doing this or that" thing and engage in a meaningful dialog. Only then you'll stop hearing echos.

I, for one, will never accept any allegation coming from India regarding terrorism unless she acknowledges her own support for cross-border terrorism in the region first.

Well, I can't argue with an idee fixe, except to point out that the documentary evidence shows the situation clearly. There was no R&W operations organisation; this was clear from the evidence which you will find in numerous publications and journals, as well as in very well-publicised public policy pronouncements. In a democracy, these things can't be kept secret. You can check for yourself, or, if you are disinclined, you can ask anyone familiar with the subject, and convince yourself. I can only point you in the right direction.

MQM, to the best of my knowledge, was never armed by India; it was purely an internal fund-raising effort. There has never been a shred of evidence that India was involved, and in fact, this is the first time and the first place that I have encountered this allegation.

The BLA was singularly not on India's radar. That is why everyone got angry with Manmohan Singh when he allowed Balochistan to be put on the agenda at a particular bilateral meeting, implying that it was a fit subject to be discussed. Until that date, and on until two years ago, Pakistan could not provide a shred of evidence; you will recall Sartaj Aziz waving an important-looking portfolio, which on submission and inspection, turned out to contain nothing tangible, nothing but surmise and conjecture.

Even the TTP is not possibly an Indian protege, for the obvious reason that I have pointed out. Let me make it clear that R&W did not stop intelligence gathering; it continued to do so right through. It was operations that was disabled, and that would include building terrorist activities. Getting information from shady people is quite another thing.

With respect, I would like to point out that an effort to achieve parity for the sake of achieving parity can only be built on a firm 'belief' that there was countervailing activity by the Indian side, not based on evidence, but based on a need to prove that there was symmetry of action.

This does not affect whatever activities happened before the Gujral tenure. That would include both the intervention in East Pakistan by the IB, not R&W, and the intervention in 1966 by ISI in the Mizo armed movement. Incidentally, the Mizo part of it is recorded in Z. A. Khan's book and by American researchers who went into the details and carefully documented the whole matter; there is no equivalent on the other side.

It is undoubtedly painful to accept that asymmetric warfare was practiced by one side alone, and I will not press the point, since it has become an emotive issue. I can only present what is known and is public, and refrain from pressing the matter any further.

 

[coffee_cup]

Well, I can't argue with an idee fixe, except to point out that the documentary evidence shows the situation clearly. There was no R&W operations organisation; this was clear from the evidence which you will find in numerous publications and journals, as well as in very well-publicised public policy pronouncements. In a democracy, these things can't be kept secret. You can check for yourself, or, if you are disinclined, you can ask anyone familiar with the subject, and convince yourself. I can only point you in the right direction.

MQM, to the best of my knowledge, was never armed by India; it was purely an internal fund-raising effort. There has never been a shred of evidence that India was involved, and in fact, this is the first time and the first place that I have encountered this allegation.

The BLA was singularly not on India's radar. That is why everyone got angry with Manmohan Singh when he allowed Balochistan to be put on the agenda at a particular bilateral meeting, implying that it was a fit subject to be discussed. Until that date, and on until two years ago, Pakistan could not provide a shred of evidence; you will recall Sartaj Aziz waving an important-looking portfolio, which on submission and inspection, turned out to contain nothing tangible, nothing but surmise and conjecture.

Even the TTP is not possibly an Indian protege, for the obvious reason that I have pointed out. Let me make it clear that R&W did not stop intelligence gathering; it continued to do so right through. It was operations that was disabled, and that would include building terrorist activities. Getting information from shady people is quite another thing.

With respect, I would like to point out that an effort to achieve parity for the sake of achieving parity can only be built on a firm 'belief' that there was countervailing activity by the Indian side, not based on evidence, but based on a need to prove that there was symmetry of action.

This does not affect whatever activities happened before the Gujral tenure. That would include both the intervention in East Pakistan by the IB, not R&W, and the intervention in 1966 by ISI in the Mizo armed movement. Incidentally, the Mizo part of it is recorded in Z. A. Khan's book and by American researchers who went into the details and carefully documented the whole matter; there is no equivalent on the other side.

It is undoubtedly painful to accept that asymmetric warfare was practiced by one side alone, and I will not press the point, since it has become an emotive issue. I can only present what is known and is public, and refrain from pressing the matter any further.

Sir, never in my post I focused on RAW. I always said "India", not RAW but India. Whichever means she used for that is of secondary nature.

Lets look at the big picture and start from the basic question:


Has India been sponsoring cross-border terrorism in Pakistan and some other countries in the region (e.g. Sri Lanka)?

Yes or No?

Now please answer this question honestly first and only then we can move forward.


I have heard enough noises coming from India about "Pakistani cross-border terrorism" and I want to know their opinion about India itself.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

IMO, Pak is more than equal - if not physically but psychologically. If India's single-point agenda is Pak, and that's all it can offer at the most powerful world bodies like G-20 or BRICS then Pak's edge is ever growing - as craftily mentioned by the author.

It's like that one-dish pot-luck party. The English brought fish&chips, the Italian pasta, the French caviar etc. Then the folks turned to the Scotch with a "?!?" - he had brought his brother...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir, never in my post I focused on RAW. I always said "India", not RAW but India. Whichever means she used for that is of secondary nature.

Lets look at the big picture and start from the basic question:


Has India been sponsoring cross-border terrorism in Pakistan and some other countries in the region (e.g. Sri Lanka)?

Yes or No?

Now please answer this question honestly first and only then we can move forward.


I have heard enough noises coming from India about "Pakistani cross-border terrorism" and I want to know their opinion about India itself.

Until 1997, yes, there were cases - the Mukti Bahini, the LTTE - when India supported movements that had violent elements.
From 1997 to 2014, no. Specifically, the MQM and the Baloch were never on the agenda. The TTP is a purely Pakistani phenomenon, and why it should need sponsorship is not clear.
Thereafter, I have no idea.

 

[SrNair]

Oh boy that evidence game again,

"I went to UN, you didn't", "I whine about it in every single meeting with every single dignity around the world, you don't"... and so it goes.

We are back to square one.

Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA, TTP... etc. etc.

Now do we want to move forward or not?



Chest thumping or not sponsoring cross-border terrorism?

If the latter, you are wrong. India's support for cross-border terrorism has never diminished. There were small phases where it was not that prominent, but it never stopped. Arming MQM, BLA and then early 2000s TTP etc...

And I say it again, we are not moving forward an inch. You want to have peace? Drop this "Pakistan doing this or that" thing and engage in a meaningful dialog. Only then you'll stop hearing echos.

I, for one, will never accept any allegation coming from India regarding terrorism unless she acknowledges her own support for cross-border terrorism in the region first.

Or I would say ,you dont have anything credible to refute my point

 

[Taimoor Khan]

They are trying their best to "degrade" Pakistan so we can fall to their level, hence being equal.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Until 1997, yes, there were cases - the Mukti Bahini, the LTTE - when India supported movements that had violent elements.

Reading this I am forced to break my self imposed exile. If a country has engaged in covertly supporting terrorists as state policy [as you owned up on behalf of India] then by that act it has demonstrated that using proxies is acceptable.

Therefore what happened in 1997 to change that? Did India go through epiphany? Is there something significant about that date? Or more likely is this a cop out? You know - "officer I used to take drugs before but honest I don't do it anymore. Honest I am clean and on the mend now"?

Fact of that matter is India will still be doing what it did before 1997 unless RAW is there for growing vegetables all the while maintaining plausible deniability even when accepting past 'sins'. We have 'smoke' with allegations of Indian funding to MQM reported in UK papers which does not surprise me. In addition I am pretty sure India is providing 'moral' support to BLA. Indeed if India was not doing this I would seriously question competance of Indian intelligence agencies.

I do however agree with you that probably India is not involved with TTP.

 

[Chauvinist]

From 1997 to 2014, no. Specifically, the MQM and the Baloch were never on the agenda.

What about Kulbhoshan Yadav? Who allegedly confessed of having tasks promoting insurgency in both KHI and Baluchistan?

And most of militants that are apprehended in KHI they confess they were trained in India by RAW..What about the proofs that Scot Land Yard gave to Pakistan about the funding of RAW to MQM through "sources"..

And one more thing..the weapons made in India that were taken from Nine Zero? Now Don't say that they may purchased them legally.

Above all how would you justify the statement of Modi at Red Fort about Baluchistan and Gilgit?
I would say Modi is "ghar ka bhedi"..

P.S: I'm not getting offensive..

 

[coffee_cup]

Until 1997, yes, there were cases - the Mukti Bahini, the LTTE - when India supported movements that had violent elements.
From 1997 to 2014, no. Specifically, the MQM and the Baloch were never on the agenda. The TTP is a purely Pakistani phenomenon, and why it should need sponsorship is not clear.
Thereafter, I have no idea.

Ok, thank you.

Both countries have done wrong to each other (and still continue doing so).

How do we move forward? I suggest strongly that Indian govt. stops this non-stop mentioning of something where her own hands are not clean. This has become such a nuisance, that it is no more funny.
The jingoistic Indian media must be put on a leash too, they must find something else to increase ratings and entertain people.


Indian govt and Modi must understand one thing, they can NEVER EVER bully Pakistan by these tactics. Yes we know Info warfare is very important these days, but scoring few diplomatic points here and there will never ever bring peace.


A common Pakistani, especailly younger generation does not wish any harm to India. Everyone has a busy life with all those daily routines and errands, no one has time to think about India or Modi.

I say keep Kashmir peaceful for some time, engage Pakistan in meaningful dialogue and I am very sure that sharp experienced minds on both sides will come up with an innovative solution for the Kashmir dispute as well. For example making LoC a permanent border and open it for Kashmiris from both sides, and so on.

This region is destined to become a real power in the world and being the bigger sister, India must take the initiative.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What about Kulbhoshan Yadav? Who allegedly confessed of having tasks promoting insurgency in both KHI and Baluchistan?

And most of militants that are apprehended in KHI they confess they were trained in India by RAW..What about the proofs that Scot Land Yard gave to Pakistan about the funding of RAW to MQM through "sources"..

And one more thing..the weapons made in India that were taken from Nine Zero? Now Don't say that they may purchased them legally.

Above all how would you justify the statement of Modi at Red Fort about Baluchistan and Gilgit?
I would say Modi is "ghar ka bhedi"..

P.S: I'm not getting offensive..

Look at the dates. They cover everything you've mentioned.

Scotland Yard never said that money was paid to MQM. As far as I recall, they suspected that some of the publicity activities got financial and other support.

Ok, thank you.

Both countries have done wrong to each other (and still continue doing so).

How do we move forward? I suggest strongly that Indian govt. stops this non-stop mentioning of something where her own hands are not clean. This has become such a nuisance, that it is no more funny.
The jingoistic Indian media must be put on a leash too, they must find something else to increase ratings and entertain people.


Indian govt and Modi must understand one thing, they can NEVER EVER bully Pakistan by these tactics. Yes we know Info warfare is very important these days, but scoring few diplomatic points here and there will never ever be peace.


A common Pakistani, especailly younger generation does not wish any harm to India. Everyone has a busy life with all those daily routines and errands, no one has time to think about India or Modi.

I say keep Kashmir peaceful for some time, engage Pakistan in meaningful dialogue and I am very sure that sharp experienced minds on both sides will come up with an innovative solution for the Kashmir dispute as well. For example making LoC a permanent border and open it for Kashmiris from both sides, and so on.

This region is destined to become a real power in the world and being the bigger sister, India must take the initiative.

Sounds good, but who will bell the cat?

 

[coffee_cup]

Sounds good, but who will bell the cat?

Everything starts with a vision.

 

[Chauvinist]

Sounds good, but who will bell the cat?

No one... Because somewhere you said to give up it requires a huge courage, which none of us have.

Kashmir is your "Atot-Ang" and Kashmir is our "Shah-Ragh" but trust me we both are pathetic liars...

One of us would give up if Kashmir was really dear to us. Because who could see his Atot-ang being burnt or his shah-ragh being cut ???

The competition is between we two..And its being held in the ring of Kashmir...They are paying for a crime which they never committed..!!
Who would be unfortunate as Kahmiris are ??

 

[Joe Shearer]

No one... Because somewhere you said to give up it requires a huge courage, which none of us have.

Kashmir is your "Atot-Ang" and Kashmir is our "Shah-Ragh" but trust me we both are pathetic liars...

One of us would give up if Kashmir was really dear to us. Because who could see his Atot-ang being burnt or his shah-ragh being cut ???

The competition is between we two..And its being held in the ring of Kashmir...They are paying for a crime which they never committed..!!
Who would be unfortunate as Kahmiris are ??

Are you both (and others genuinely interested in Kashmir and in Kashmiris) willing to try an experiment?

 

[Chauvinist]

Are you both (and others genuinely interested in Kashmir and in Kashmiris) willing to try an experiment?

Experiment of what ?? I just said what I think about Kashmir by brain...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Experiment of what ?? I just said what I think about Kashmir by brain...

To find out what to do and how to do it to solve the problem in Kashmir.