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excellent read.I just hope i remember making a detail reply to this in the morning. A great point of view indeed.
@Joe Shearer @hellfire @nair @WAJsal following this?
U know thats the problem where each side says that "I am right so better put ur house in order". This thing of pointing fingers is taking us nowhere. Again I wud refrain from pointing fingers at anyone but wud try my best as just one individual to play my part in deescalating things rather than being a source of further escalation.
I can see why ur red corner is having abundant numbers. And when I see likes of such remarks I am back to zero and wonder if we wud be at peace....ever.
For peace to prevail between India and Pakistan. India first has to let go of its delusions of being a regional hegemon. Pakistan wouldn't be taking dictations from Hindu-stanis.
excellent read.I just hope i remember making a detail reply to this in the morning. A great point of view indeed.
@Joe Shearer @hellfire @nair @WAJsal following this?
You already know my views on the problems created by a particular ideology and its party having come to power. Why that has to make Pakistanis behave like savages beats me.
Whenever i have a talk with intellectual of pakistani origin then they show me the past and thats their problem. We Need to look for the future. I appreciate the word that i have been looking all along.
Very simple Joe.
People like you are becoming a rare breed in India. Unfortunately majority of Indians that we counter in online forums are absolute extremist nutters, who would want nothing less than total annihilation of Pakistan.
Electing fanatics like Modi and co with a thumping majority is just a simple indicator about how the majority of Indians think.
So can you then blame Pakistanis for gradually losing any hope of peace with fanatic India and "behave like savages" when replying to those fanatics?
I think this obsession is mutual from both sides of the border, and had there not been hostilities between Pakistan and India, both countries would've been in a way better position than where they stand today...
I agree Pakistan has definitely been more aggressive in this obsession to see who's stronger but I also feel this obsession helped them keep up with the world but that's just me.True.
And from my point of view as an historian, the picture is pretty one-sided.
I don't expect you to agree.
You are absolutely right in saying that most Indians that you encounter on online fora are absolute extremist nutters, or extremist nutters, or nutters simple - the whole range is well-represented. But you must also recall that there are those of moderate views who are enraged by what they read Pakistanis writing, and respond far more violently than they would do in normal times.
About the thumping majority - I don't know why this occurs again and again.
Modi's core vote is in the region of between 13 to 17% (a large variation because it covers all shades and colours of supporter, supporters of his basic ideology); the number who voted for economic advance and for the eradication of UPA2's unbelievable corruption, was about 15 to 17%; around 2 to 3% were random voters. He got a total of 37% of the votes cast. Unless he and his troupe keep doing public stunts, that second 15 to 17% will drift away to the next side-show.
I don't blame Pakistanis; even the nice ones have been misbehaving. Look at you yourself. I admit that you make me lose my temper more than anyone else, except Hindutvavadi nutters, always top of my list, religious fanatics, Windjammer, whom I have happily on my ignore list, and ajtr, a deeply wounded soul. And script kiddy equivalents, who have elected to spend most of their time here. But when you write calmly, it isn't rocket science to figure out that you are the kind of person with whom one can hold an edifying conversation.
I agree Pakistan has definitely been more aggressive in this obsession to see who's stronger but I also feel this obsession helped them keep up with the world but that's just me.
I feel that over the past few decades, it has been more about insecurity than obsession. Now, where both countries stand with 100+ nukes each and millions are soldiers that are ready to die at a moments notice, we have to ask ourselves, was it really worth it?
The people on both sides of the border just want decent food, clothing, housing, peace and security for themselves and their families. Tanks, guns, planes, ships, and missiles don't feed the people, the world has more than enough resources to feed and take care of every human being but we are busy fighting each other.
My point is that Pakistan and India need to forget everything that happened in the past and find a solution that permanently brings peace back into this region.
See, for me, at the end of the day it is called "Pakistan Defence Forum" and it is the main reason I joined it.
I am pleasantly surprised to see so many other nationalities including Indians taking part here as well.
Now what happens is that more often than not you see tr@sh originating from Indian media and govt. finding its way here. Twisting and distorting facts to suit Indian narrative. It is necessary to counter it (purely Pakistani view).
So that people reading that tr@sh understand that India is as much responsible for spreading cross-border terrorism in the region as it accuses Pakistan for. Same thing goes for extremism, Indians themselves have as many extremists (if not more), as they accuse Pakistan of having.
Analogy:
For an outsider it would not matter for what reasons "Hafiz Saeed" is elected PM with a thumping majority. That some have voted him for his ideology, some for his "economical" policies, some for his charities or some for just having a bushy beard..
At the end of the day, an extremist gets elected with a thumping majority and it is alarming to see the kind of support he enjoys within the majority of people.
Apologies Joe.
But whenever I encounter sentences or terms like "Pakistani terrorists", "Pakistani cross-border terrorism", I'll always make sure that they are countered by equal mentions of "Indian terrorists" or "Indian cross-border terrorism".
For my part, I'll keep fighting to make sure that the former never becomes a part of acceptable history without the latter being mentioned as well.
So as long as Indians keep crowing that line, Pakistanis will retaliate and saner people like you will unfortunately have to bear with that
It is about the image man and why should I accept anything that destroys mine? Especially coming from "existential enemy" who herself is 10 times worse?
But that apart, I always enjoying our conversations.
I agree trade among each other reasonably benefits the people in both countries. If we take the European Union example and apply it to the South Asian continent, imagine the possibilities.That is an incredibly insightful point! And I read the rest of your post with increasing disbelief. Nothing you have written in the past - no post - prepared me for this.
I cannot help saying with some bemusement that there is not a word in your post that I could legitimately change. If those bozos leading my country were to stop buying big, shiny toys and concentrate on roti, kapda and makan, we could beat in the heads of any country in the world - if we should wish to, which would be a very strange desire - with economic strength alone. On a healthier note, we could buy enough from our neighbours to boost their economies by a significant percentage.
I must say, this kind of note is reason enough to ignore all the signals being sent to us by the PDF administration, and to stay on, unlike several of my reasonable and open-minded colleagues.