Indian Submarine Acquisitions (Conventional)

[vish]

Jliu:

Thank you sir, for answering my querry.

 

[nitesh]

Impossible. Different roles, different designs.

Can you even begin to imagine the ruckus if a theoretical "joint" SSBN/SSN ATV was sunk? That's a few SLBMs on the seabed and radiation in your seafood!

But Jliu, what about cost of operating those subs. The point is if a SSBN ATV is sunk, then also we have the same problem. I think IN will stick to joint SSBN?SSN role or may be some ATV will have the role of SSBN and some of SSN.

 

[vish]

But Jliu, what about cost of operating those subs. The point is if a SSBN ATV is sunk, then also we have the same problem. I think IN will stick to joint SSBN?SSN role or may be some ATV will have the role of SSBN and some of SSN.

I know this post wasn't addressed to me but I'll add my two bits here; sorry if this is inappropriate.

The cost won't be a major concern; pretty soon the IN will be getting more share of the defense budget. Once the number of shipyards (public and private) increases, our foreign purchases (frigates, destroyers, etc.) will reduce as well.

An SSBNs role is to maintain the country's strategic nuclear deterent. It isn't meant to be involved in clashes with other submarines. The ATV won't be patrolling "near" India; hence, sinking it is much more difficult for it isn't easy to find an SSBN (the reason being their area of operations can be anywhere). An SSN on the other hand is meant to search and destroy enemy submarines and ships and maintain area deniability (I may be wrong).

The two are different and the IN would be foolish to operate a submarine that doubles up as both. The submarine can't work as a true SSBN (thus restricting strategic advantage); neither can it work as a true SSN (restricting operations).

Our SSN may have cruise-missile VLS capability.

 

[nitesh]

I know this post wasn't addressed to me but I'll add my two bits here; sorry if this is inappropriate.

The cost won't be a major concern; pretty soon the IN will be getting more share of the defense budget. Once the number of shipyards (public and private) increases, our foreign purchases (frigates, destroyers, etc.) will reduce as well.

An SSBNs role is to maintain the country's strategic nuclear deterent. It isn't meant to be involved in clashes with other submarines. The ATV won't be patrolling "near" India; hence, sinking it is much more difficult for it isn't easy to find an SSBN (the reason being their area of operations can be anywhere). An SSN on the other hand is meant to search and destroy enemy submarines and ships and maintain area deniability (I may be wrong).

The two are different and the IN would be foolish to operate a submarine that doubles up as both. The submarine can't work as a true SSBN (thus restricting strategic advantage); neither can it work as a true SSN (restricting operations).

Our SSN may have cruise-missile VLS capability.

Ok, so how you kill other submarines/ships.

You fire a torpedo, kill and scoot. So does SSBN don't have torpedo tubes or what?

 

[vish]

Ok, so how you kill other submarines/ships.

You fire a torpedo, kill and scoot. So does SSBN don't have torpedo tubes or what?

Ofcourse it does; but hunting is not its primary role. Its role is to maintain the country's nuclear arsenal.

Suppose an SSBN is hunting for enemy SSKs/SSNs and gets torpedoed in the process. Besides the reactor, there are 10+ nuclear SLBMs that go down with it. Forget the ecological disaster (a submarine's reactor is any day safer than a warhead), this is a serious strategic loss.

Further, the job of an SSBN is to hide (usually places where it is difficult to find, i.e., far from home waters) and then launch its SLBMs on the enemy as a second strike. It isn't meant to scout for enemy submarines. If it does encounter them it should run, and if not possible, defend.

That is why the SSBN and SSN would be seperate.

 

[nitesh]

Ofcourse it does; but hunting is not its primary role. Its role is to maintain the country's nuclear arsenal.

Suppose an SSBN is hunting for enemy SSKs/SSNs and gets torpedoed in the process. Besides the reactor, there are 10+ nuclear SLBMs that go down with it. Forget the ecological disaster (a submarine's reactor is any day safer than a warhead), this is a serious strategic loss.

Further, the job of an SSBN is to hide (usually places where it is difficult to find, i.e., far from home waters) and then launch its SLBMs on the enemy as a second strike. It isn't meant to scout for enemy submarines. If it does encounter them it should run, and if not possible, defend.

That is why the SSBN and SSN would be seperate.

Ok, agree with you. you have hit the bull's eye. The point I am trying to make is that there will be no two design for SSBN/SSN. The design will be the same but some ATV's will be assigned the SSBN role and some of SSN role.

 

[Jliu]

But Jliu, what about cost of operating those subs. The point is if a SSBN ATV is sunk, then also we have the same problem. I think IN will stick to joint SSBN?SSN role or may be some ATV will have the role of SSBN and some of SSN.

Vish pretty much answered the roles filled by an SSBN and SSN so I'd like to add that its not really the operating costs but the MASSIVE development and sunk costs of the engineering cycle involved in either SSBN and SSN developement.

Now I'm pretty sure India is embarking on that path and throwing cash at it but at the same time the IN is dual tracking along the cheaper option-ie. SLCM second strike from a dedicated SSK with tubes capable of subsurface launch. This has the advantage of ambiguity regarding the exact warfit of the SLCMs on the ssk, nuclear or conventional-in effect fusing the SSBN/SSN role in a much less effective and survivable package.

Which brings me to the purpose of the next generation of SSK tenders. The "VLS" requirement as I outlined earlier is pure disinformation for the media-it is quite ambigious and after discussing with my colleagues we are convinced that the next line of SSKs are there to fill the second strike capability gap until the ATV IOCs using modified Brahmos. Now a modified sublaunch Brahmos requires one thing to for it to have maximum flight profile performance-a launch tube large enough for it for the design not to be scaled down too much. In other words meaning a 533mm+ launch tube. This rules out the Scorpene (6x553mm) and the Russians as their boats are less quiet than the French. Sure enough, the IN announced the boats would certainly not be of the Scorpene variant.

The U214 on the other hand has 8x553mm - which can be modified to rest in the 4x553mm + 2x650mm configuration - large enough for subsurface SLCMs such as the Brahmos or Babur for that matter. That is also the reason why Pakistan desires the U214 (the Agostas are regarded as low survivability in that role and there are doubts about the progress of Babur integration).

 

[nitesh]

India to get Russian nuclear submarine after 17 yr wait - ExpressIndia.Com

India to get Russian nuclear submarine after 17 yr wait

Posted online: Thursday , July 03, 2008 at 01:38:24
Updated: Thursday , July 03, 2008 at 01:38:24

Moscow, July 3: India will get its first Akula class Russian nuclear submarine in 2009, equipping its navy with the quietest and lethal underwater war machine after a gap of 17 years to enhance its blue water capabilities.
Factory trials of the multi-role nuclear submarine, christened INS Chakra which India-will get on a 10-year-lease, commenced on June 11 at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur shipyard and will be followed by sea trials, Russian defence sources said, adding it will be delivered by September 2009.

According to experts, Chakra would help India fill the void caused by the delays in the indigenous Advanced Technology Vessel project to build a nuclear powered, guided missile attack submarine.

Three Indian naval crews for the nuclear submarine have already been trained at the specially set up training centre in Sosnovy Bor near St. Petersburg.

This facility would also be used for training crews for the Indian nuclear submarines of ATV project currently in the advanced stages of development, sources said.

Though they said that India has financed the completion of construction of submarine of project 971 "Shchuka B"(NATO codename Akula) under the USD 650 million deal signed in 2004 as part of the larger Gorshkov package, they did not reveal the cost of the lease of Chakra.

Akula (Shark) is the quietest Russian attack submarine and Chakra has been christened after its predecessor leased by the Indian Navy in 1988 from the erstwhile USSR.

In January 1988, ex-USSR had leased K-43 nuclear submarine of project 670 (NATO codename Charlie) which was with the Indian Navy as INS Chakra till March 1991, when under the intense US pressure beleaguered Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev had refused to extend the lease.


Quite a good news. As per the news this is the first one hope we get the second one soon.

 

[nitesh]

Some more infor about NPOL
The Indian Scenario

The Indian Scenario - NPOL and Sonar

The Eighties- APSOH and HUMVAD

Till early eighties we were dependent on British make sonars for the underwater operation. In 1981, NPOL developed the first sonar APSOH (Advanced Panoramic Sonar Hull mounted) for fitment on warship. It was productionised by Bharat Electronics and was fitted onboard INS Himagiri. It was a great success. This and its variant HUMVAD (HUll Mounted and Variable Depth) were fitted in 10 warships. Each system costed about 3-5 crores then. With this development the indigenisation of ship sonar was achieved.

The Nineties - HUMSA

With the excellent performance of APSOH sonar, Navy wanted technologically upgraded second generation of Frigate sonar. Navy placed order on BE Bangalore directly with NPOL providing the design support. This model of partnership ensured the commitment on both the Navy side and production side towards induction of developed systems. The product was christened as HUMSA (HUll mounted Sonar Advanced). NPOL developed the state of the art display and signal processing hardware and software with advanced algorithms put in place. The increased processing capabilities offered by the microprocessors and signal processors available at that time, made the system quite advanced.

BE has produced more than 14 systems to-date since 1998 and a few more are on demand. The three Talwar class Frigates India purchased from Russia in 2003-04 were also fitted with HUMSA sonar only. This system has been proving its performance in all platforms and its role has been well appreciated by the Navy.

For the New decade of 2000 – HUMSA NG

In the year 2004, when navy decided on its capability build up plan, there was requirement to upgrade HUMSA design with current technology and architecture. The Mazagon Docks placed order with BE for 10 systems. NPOL and BE entered into an MOU for the development. The harbour and sea trials of the first system on each class of ships are joint responsibility of NPOL and BE. Naval Headquarters is involved in the very beginning closely monitoring the development.

This effective association of NPOL ( the designer) – Bharat Electronics (the manufacturer) – Indian Navy (the User) is contributing remarkably towards bringing down the lead time for realization of advanced sonar systems for the Indian Navy.

The significance of the function

NPOL had committed that it will complete the development of its part HUMSA NG (Version - 1) by June 30th 2008 and hand over to BE so that the system can be cleared for installation in July 2008. To mark the timely completion of this task, a copy of the software and documentation CD was handed over by Sri MM Pallam Raju, RRM to CMD of BE from NPOL on 2nd July 2008.

Report for the Function

“Under the changed economic scenario and fast changing technologies, there is a need to tap the growth of industries outside-be it in the private sector or the public sector effectively to reduce system development time. To reduce this time of delivery, need to transfer technologies to the industrial partners very effectively. Naval Physical & Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), Kochi has a three decades aid history of successful partnership with M/s Bharat Electronics, Bangalore. This relationship is a model for all other industrial partnerships. Maybe, the industry also has to invest same funds in matured sub-technologies, even before Navy places order on them, so that the time at gestation for the first production system can be minimised”. Opined Shri MM Pallam Raju after handing over the documents symbolically to mark the completion of development of HUMSA-NG and its transfer of technology developed at NPOL (DRDO) to Shri VVR Sastry, Chairman and Managing Director of Bharat Electronics, Bangalore.

Shri VVR Sastry, recalled the long three decades of partnership relations with NPOL in furthering the indigenous development of underwater technology for Indian Navy and this model should be emulated by other research organisations.

“As the innovation made in the field of SONARs is of world class in nature, it is time to look for a global market for such products” said Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, Distinguished Scientist, Chief Controller R&D (NS & ACE), DRDO, while speaking on this occasion. Earlier Shri S Anantha Narayanan, Director, NPOL welcomed. Shri SP Pillai the former Senior Scientist, who gave significant contributions in the sonar development programme was honoured by the Minister. Dr RR Rao, Director (Management) gave vote of thanks.

The Minister visited various project sites and facilities at NPOL and also interacted with the young scientists.

 

[nitesh]

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=454032

Naval chief visits France ahead of global submarine tenders
New Delhi, July 08: With the Navy on the verge of floating global tenders to buy more submarines, Naval chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta has begun a six-day tour of France, a major supplier of subs to India.

In the course of his official visit, Mehta would hold talks with his French counterpart Admiral Pierre Frances Forissier and top defence brass of the country.

At the top on the admiral's itinerary is a visit to the French Navy's key submarine base of Cherboug, which houses the French nuclear submarines as well the drydocks for production of the conventional Scorpene Subs.

In a multi-billion euro deal inked in 2006, India is to produce six French Scorpene submarines under technology transfer at state-owned Mazagoan docks limited in Mumbai. The first of these submarines is expected to roll out by 2011.

Mehta recently told media persons that India would soon float international tenders for opening the country's second line of submarine production. DCN international, makers of the Scorpene submarines along with Germand HDW, Russian firms and Swedish sub makers would be vying for the deal.

Under a 20-year submarine perspective plan, Indian Navy hopes to acquire 24 submarines by the year 2020.

 

[Jliu]

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=454032

Naval chief visits France ahead of global submarine tenders
New Delhi, July 08: With the Navy on the verge of floating global tenders to buy more submarines, Naval chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta has begun a six-day tour of France, a major supplier of subs to India.

The IN moves fast when it wants to. But in my opinion given the IN's recent anti corruption drive steer clear of the French or risk smelling the kickbacks.

In a multi-billion euro deal inked in 2006, India is to produce six French Scorpene submarines under technology transfer at state-owned Mazagoan docks limited in Mumbai. The first of these submarines is expected to roll out by 2011.

Might be a bit optimistic given certain fitting issues and the upcoming PN tender almost certainly going to DCN. Expect delays ahead.

Mehta recently told media persons that India would soon float international tenders for opening the country's second line of submarine production. DCN international, makers of the Scorpene submarines along with Germand HDW, Russian firms and Swedish sub makers would be vying for the deal.

Under a 20-year submarine perspective plan, Indian Navy hopes to acquire 24 submarines by the year 2020.

Interesting, Mehta quotes a number of 24 SSKs up from our estimates of 22. Which means they might bump up the 6 boat requirement to 8 to have 8 new line, 6 Scorpene and keep the 10 Kilo rustbuckets.

 

[shrivatsa]

Thats a good news

 

[nitesh]

Full transfer of Scorpene technology: French firm - Newindpress.com

Full transfer of Scorpene technology: French firm
Friday July 18 2008 12:36 IST

French warship major DCNS says it will fully transfer technology for its Scorpene submarines that are being built in this country for the Indian Navy and that the six boats contracted for will be delivered on schedule by 2017.

"Transfer of technology is not an issue. We will fully abide by our contractual obligations and even go a step further by providing equipment that has not even been asked for but will aid in the construction of the submarines," said DCNS chairperson and CEO Jean-Marie Poimboeuf.

"We have already started to transfer technology. This is a big challenge but we are totally confident we will achieve what we have set out to do," Paris-based Poimboeuf told IANS in an interview here.

India and France had in 2005 signed a Rs.130 billion ($3 billion) deal for six Scorpene submarines armed with Exocet anti-ship missiles. It was originally thought that one of these would be in sail-away condition while the remaining five would be manufactured at the state-owned Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL) at Mumbai. It now transpires that MDL would build all the six vessels.

"There is no restriction at all from the French government (on transferring technology)," Poimboeuf pointed out.

The official is here for a visit he undertakes every six months to monitor the progress in the construction of the first Scorpene submarine at MDL, which began last year.

He has also interacted with defence ministry officials on future contracts - including for the next generation Scorpenes that will be capable of firing long-range air-breathing missiles.

Discussing the challenges in transferring technology, Poimboeuf said this was because the wheel had virtually to be reinvented in training Indian engineers and technicians for the job at hand.

"We had to start from scratch because whatever expertise India had acquired in building submarines had been lost as no boats have been constructed for nearly 20 years," Poimboeuf explained.

The last time a submarine was built in India was in the late 1980s when MDL constructed under licence two German HDW boats, in addition to two that the Indian Navy had purchased in sail-away condition. MDL was to have constructed a total of four boats but the contract was abruptly terminated following charges that HDW had paid massive kickbacks to secure the Rs.4.20 billion deal.

The four HDW submarines in the Indian Navy's fleet of 16 boats will approach the end of their combat life between 2016 and 2024.

"Today, there is a new generation (of Indian engineers and technicians). We have to start from scratch in training them and are very serious about this," Poimboeuf said.

Toward this end, DCNS has deployed 15 French engineers at MDL against the six it was obligated to and plans to raise the number to 30 as the project proceeds.

It is also opening a fully owned-subsidiary in Mumbai next month to speed up the technology transfer process and to involve Indian industries by way of joint ventures or outsourcing.

"The subsidiary would not only support the submarine project but work with local companies to indigenise the boats," Poimboeuf explained.

Speaking about the construction of the first Scorpene, he said its various sections were being built and after integration of the systems they would carry, they would be put together by the end of the year.

"The full integration of all the systems would take another three years, after which sea trials would be conducted over a period of 12-18 months before the vessel is declared fully operational by 2012," DCNS Vice President (Projects) Pierre Legros explained.

 

[nitesh]

The Hindu : Front Page : France offers India partnership to export submarines

France offers India partnership to export submarines

Sandeep Dikshit
NEW DELHI: France has offered India a partnership to export hi-tech submarines to third countries. “Our strategy is not only to be in India for developing products for India but to develop for others because we think that a submarine is a strategic defence system which a lot of navies are interested in developing,” Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of DCNS Jean-Marie Poimbeuf told The Hindu.

Submarines are counted as among the most potent defence platforms as they can operate undetected far beyond a country’s shores. The DCNS, 75 per cent owned by the French government, is currently building six submarines for India at Mazgaon Dock Limited (MDL), Mumbai, at a cost of about Rs. 15,000 crore.

“We think India is a good place to develop activity for other countries. We have a lot of countries interested in submarines. Singapore would acquire new submarines in three to five years. Malaysia might ask for a second batch of submarine. Thailand and Indonesia would be interested,” Mr. Poimbeuf said.

Since a submarine is a big-ticket item – each submarine being built for the Indian Navy will cost about Rs. 2,500 crore – the opportunities for the Indian industry would be huge in case the French offer materialises. As a step towards intensifying cooperation with Indian companies, a DCNS subsidiary will be operational next month. It will help in the ongoing submarine project and also set up joint ventures with local companies to locally build specific equipment for submarines.

Project on torpedoes
“Beyond the submarine project, the DCNS (India) will develop cooperation with other shipyards. The DCNS is already working on propulsion system for corvettes with Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE). There is another project of cooperation on torpedoes,” said Mr. Poimbeuf.

The DCNS, he assured, was ready to continue with technology transfer and work with local companies. “We will be very open to technology transfer. We will listen to the governmental policy on the way they would like [the next lot of] submarine would be constructed. We are totally open to develop industrial cooperation and set up a joint venture with a local company that Indian government allow us to do,” he observed.

The DCNS chief said his company would reply to the request for information (RFI) for the next batch of submarines. It is also in discussion for other projects. “We received a RFI for training ships and offshore patrol vessels and would like to answer in cooperation with local shipyard. We will participate with design and support the construction in India.”

The company’s top brass held several sounds of discussions last week with Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Sureesh Mehta to discuss technology transfer for the present lot of submarines. “I read in newspapers and assured him that there was no restriction on technology transfer from the French government and we are doing that since the beginning of the contract,” he explained.

Admitting that the building of the first submarine had been delayed, he was, however, optimistic of the six submarines rolling out by the projected date of 2017. “It is a very complex naval system. There is nothing more complex more than a submarine. Besides, for over 15 years there was no activity regarding construction of submarines in India. To restart this activity takes time.”

 

[nitesh]

Navy looks to boost snoop power-India-The Times of India

Navy looks to boost snoop power
20 Jul 2008, 0346 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit,TNN