Indian Submarine Acquisitions (Conventional)

[vish]

Ya you are right but one military analyst has conformed that India wont go for the separate SSN and SSBN like the other big Navy in the near future cuz simply we can not afford it. As far as the ATV has concerned it will only have the capability to launch the midium range cruise missiles so technicaly it is SSGN.

I doubt that… check out this PTI report…

It says “A miniaturised submarine-launched version of the Agni-III called Agni-III SL is also being developed and could be test-fired shortly.”

Plus, Sagarika is a ballistic missile… I just checked it on BR…

 

[Mohammed Azizuddin]

NICE........

 

[Marshal]

I doubt that… check out this PTI report…

It says “A miniaturised submarine-launched version of the Agni-III called Agni-III SL is also being developed and could be test-fired shortly.”

Plus, Sagarika is a ballistic missile… I just checked it on BR…

Yup sorry mate........my mistake. ATV is not SSGN but it is SSBN.

 

[JEFF]

Hey nobody can sell nuclear submarine to any country but it can be "leased". So As India is already building Scorpene so other could be U-214, Amur, any guessing?

Have you read word Indigenous in above article? as well as mentioning of Nucler power submarines.

 

[EagleEyes]

Guess what? India will not be getting the U-214. Start investing in the Marlin.

 

[vish]

Guess what? India will not be getting the U-214. Start investing in the Marlin.

Care to clear the air?

 

[nitesh]

Navy plans to ditch Dhruv helicopters- Hindustan Times

The Indian Navy has virtually written off the naval variant of the advanced light helicopter (ALH), Dhruv, saying it has failed to meet basic operational requirements. The navy, which operates a fleet of six ALHs, has decided against placing further orders with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

A senior navy official told HT, “The ALH has a long way to go before the programme matures sufficiently for it to undertake basic naval roles such as search and rescue (SAR) and communication duties.” He said the helicopter’s ASW (anti-submarine warfare) version developed by HAL still falls short of naval expectations.

Navy officials said that the ALH lacks the desired endurance for mission requirements. The navy is also not satisfied with the chopper’s rotor blade folding mechanism for storage on warships and its payload capacity. The navy has launched a global hunt for new ASW helicopters to replace its ageing fleet of Sea King helicopters.

However, HAL remains buoyant about domestic helicopter sale prospects with the defence ministry entrusting it with the task of developing light utility helicopters for the army and the air force. The ministry has allocated Rs 435 crore for this. The defence public sector undertaking is focusing aggressively on the helicopter business and plans to set up a new helicopter division in Bangalore.

 

[nitesh]

Long-range missile set for launch test in Tel Aviv

Long-range missile set for launch test in Tel Aviv
Huma Siddiqui
Posted online: Friday , June 13, 2008 at 2225 hrs IST



New Delhi, Jun 12 The long-range surface to air missile (LRSAM), which is jointly developed by Defence Research and Development Laboratory, Hyderabad with second biggest weapons supplier Israel, is ready to go for launch test to Tel Aviv.

The $350-million covered a joint Indian-Israeli development agreement in 2006 under the UPA government, to create a new medium shipborne air defense missile, based on the Barak system in service with both navies.

According to sources, under the contract Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and its Israeli partners have agreed to transfer all relevant technologies and manufacturing capabilities to India, and to start delivering in 65 months’ time.

The systems’ critical design review is complete, the 2-pulse rocket motor has been successfully tested statically and has been delivered to Israel for launch test. Sources said the test is scheduled to take place in June-end and early next month, and this will be followed by control and navigation test later this year.

While the initial funding is about $350 million, of which IAI will finance 50%, additional funding will be infused by both parties as needed. Israel also has projected some requirements for long-range Barak air defense systems, and it could source missiles and other systems from India, he said.

The agreement paves the way to meet the immediate requirements of the Indian Navy, the scientist said. Under this agreement, the Defence Research and Development Laboratory and IAI will develop six long-range Barak systems for India’s stealth warships. The Navy is procuring three such warships from Russia, and the remaining will be built by the state-owned Mazagon Docks.

A senior defence ministry official said there will be a transformation in the requirements of air defense systems for the three Indian military services. Based on these projections and the high cost of air defense systems, the ministry has approved the initiatives under which, state-owned agencies can forge joint co-development and co-production ventures with foreign Companies.

 

[Jliu]

Care to clear the air?

Refer to the thread Pakistan's next gen submarine under the naval forces thread.

I believe we should merge this thread with Pakistan's next gen SSK requirement into a thread titled "next gen SSK requirements for IN and PN" as both issues are directly related in more ways than most.

I also believe for the IN's upcoming tender Navantia will make a strong bid with their S-80A SSK-the same version as operated by the Armada and only omitting Tomahawk LACM software from the C3 subframe.

Frankly the S-1000 doesn't have a chance as the IN is throughly fed up with anything Russian for the moment. Some of my contacts even believe the S-1000 is some sort of joke-most probably it only exists on the drawing board.

The IN's upcoming tender will factor in interoperability (the IN doesn't want a logistical nightmare), time and capability while the PN's tender will primarily be decided by cost and ToT.

To summarise for the naval procurement enthusiasts:

IN-Marlin, U212?/U214 or S-80A; Russian designs rejected this time due to politics and supplier power

PN-Scorpene variant, Marlin, U214?, any Russian design rejected for obvious logistical issues, S-80A for reliance on US systems fit

and don't forget the kickbacks......

Regards

 

[vish]

Refer to the thread Pakistan's next gen submarine under the naval forces thread.

I believe we should merge this thread with Pakistan's next gen SSK requirement into a thread titled "next gen SSK requirements for IN and PN" as both issues are directly related in more ways than most.

I also believe for the IN's upcoming tender Navantia will make a strong bid with their S-80A SSK-the same version as operated by the Armada and only omitting Tomahawk LACM software from the C3 subframe.

Frankly the S-1000 doesn't have a chance as the IN is throughly fed up with anything Russian for the moment. Some of my contacts even believe the S-1000 is some sort of joke-most probably it only exists on the drawing board.

The IN's upcoming tender will factor in interoperability (the IN doesn't want a logistical nightmare), time and capability while the PN's tender will primarily be decided by cost and ToT.

To summarise for the naval procurement enthusiasts:

IN-Marlin, U212?/U214 or S-80A; Russian designs rejected this time due to politics and supplier power

PN-Scorpene variant, Marlin, U214?, any Russian design rejected for obvious logistical issues, S-80A for reliance on US systems fit

and don't forget the kickbacks......

Regards

Hey, thanks for clearing the air on the S-1000/Amur issue and also notifying that the S-80 is in the race as well.

I thought the IN was very happy with the Kilo class SSKs that it operates; I guess I'm wrong.

You are right, kickbacks always play a major role in any Indian procurement.

If interoperability is a major concern for the IN, then it leaves only Marlin and U214; correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards;


PS: You should be a think tank.

 

[Jliu]

Hey, thanks for clearing the air on the S-1000/Amur issue and also notifying that the S-80 is in the race as well.

I thought the IN was very happy with the Kilo class SSKs that it operates; I guess I'm wrong.

You are right, kickbacks always play a major role in any Indian procurement.

If interoperability is a major concern for the IN, then it leaves only Marlin and U214; correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards;


PS: You should be a think tank.

Thank you for your thoughts and devotion to your country, I'd be more than happy to answer your questions. I have fond memories of my time in India and Pakistan and how your naval officers always would try to pump us with questions and gain our thoughts on everything related to naval affairs

IN dissatisfaction with the Russians should strike you as no surprise given the delays with the Gorshkov and price hikes on the additional batch of Su-30MKI the IAF requires.

The IN are pleased with their upgraded 877s in terms of systems fit and acoustics-except for the Klub-S AshM fiasco which effectively leaves the Sindugosh class without an effective ASW weapon. To clarify, the Kilos are due to serve until mid-21st century-Project 75 was meant to be replacing the 4 Type 209s and 2 Foxtrots and the additional tender for 6 SSKs were to bring fleet SSK numbers to 22 by c.2020 but with delays to P75 it might be other way around.

By kickbacks I was referring more to the PN-I believe our services were not wanted as there were too many in the establishment recieving kickbacks and our recommendations were unwelcome. The IN has done a commendable job on eliminating kickbacks on the whole so you may congratulate them-kickbacks hurt everyone involved.

Regarding your comments on interoperability-that is a confusing word, even for us. It could mean interop with exisiting German support infrastructure (Kilos are staying on) or interop with the USN in which case S-80 would look good. I've already explained my reasons for the U212/214 possibility for export-however IN must accept that for U212 (if it is offered in the hypotheitical scenario of PN getting U214 and India not opposing the sale) all fitting will be done in Germany for export validation reasons as well as having to abide by strict guidelines on maintenance. For the record, I don't believe the Marlin is commericially viable in comparison to other products on offer as nobody really knows exactly what content is from the Barracuda program and also the systems, sensor and weapons fit are total mysteries. I don't believe the advertising and neither should the IN. The design has not been tested, certified or validated in any way. Here is a model though:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0504.JPG

Photos courtesy of Pakdef

Regards

 

[vish]

Thank you for your thoughts and devotion to your country, I'd be more than happy to answer your questions. I have fond memories of my time in India and Pakistan and how your naval officers always would try to pump us with questions and gain our thoughts on everything related to naval affairs

Welcome sir, it’s a pleasure having this conversation with you.

IN dissatisfaction with the Russians should strike you as no surprise given the delays with the Gorshkov and price hikes on the additional batch of Su-30MKI the IAF requires.

I’m an amateur enthusiastic so my knowledge is fairly limited but I think the delays have two major reasons: economic (fall in the value of the dollar, unexpected rise in commodity prices and other input costs) and political (MRCA). I do agree that things with Russia are rough but the IN cannot ignore the help the ATV has received with the Russians. Plus we are collaborating a lot with them. But if the S-1000 is really a paper project then I guess the IN won’t go with it.

I also think that the delays with the Scorpene contract are due to the MRCA tender (Rafale)

The IN are pleased with their upgraded 877s in terms of systems fit and acoustics-except for the Klub-S AshM fiasco which effectively leaves the Sindugosh class without an effective ASW weapon. To clarify, the Kilos are due to serve until mid-21st century-Project 75 was meant to be replacing the 4 Type 209s and 2 Foxtrots and the additional tender for 6 SSKs were to bring fleet SSK numbers to 22 by c.2020 but with delays to P75 it might be other way around.

Thank you for the information sir. I must say this did come as a surprise to me.

By kickbacks I was referring more to the PN-I believe our services were not wanted as there were too many in the establishment recieving kickbacks and our recommendations were unwelcome. The IN has done a commendable job on eliminating kickbacks on the whole so you may congratulate them-kickbacks hurt everyone involved.

Thanks again; this confirms my long-held belief: the IN is the most professional of all Indian armed forces.

Regarding your comments on interoperability-that is a confusing word, even for us. It could mean interop with exisiting German support infrastructure (Kilos are staying on) or interop with the USN in which case S-80 would look good. I've already explained my reasons for the U212/214 possibility for export-however IN must accept that for U212 (if it is offered in the hypotheitical scenario of PN getting U214 and India not opposing the sale) all fitting will be done in Germany for export validation reasons as well as having to abide by strict guidelines on maintenance. For the record, I don't believe the Marlin is commericially viable in comparison to other products on offer as nobody really knows exactly what content is from the Barracuda program and also the systems, sensor and weapons fit are total mysteries. I don't believe the advertising and neither should the IN. The design has not been tested, certified or validated in any way. Here is a model though:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0504.JPG

Photos courtesy of Pakdef

Regards

This implies that the Marlin is more or less out of the question.

Further sir, the IN wants vertical missile launch capability in these six submarines. May I have your comments on that…

 

[Jliu]

Welcome sir, it’s a pleasure having this conversation with you.

I like enthusiam and concern for country. Your country needs men like you. I met your Admiral Prakash last year, very nice bloke straight from the cadet ranks and the IN is quite a good career, especially the air arm. Or you could consider being an auditor and "streamline" the DRDO

I’m an amateur enthusiastic so my knowledge is fairly limited but I think the delays have two major reasons: economic (fall in the value of the dollar, unexpected rise in commodity prices and other input costs) and political (MRCA). I do agree that things with Russia are rough but the IN cannot ignore the help the ATV has received with the Russians. Plus we are collaborating a lot with them. But if the S-1000 is really a paper project then I guess the IN won’t go with it. I also think that the delays with the Scorpene contract are due to the MRCA tender (Rafale)

Naturally India wil have to maintain a balance with Russia as a major arms supplier but you will gradually see a move away from Russia towards EU and US suppliers as India has the $$ to spend on top end equipment and also because the above want to court India as a key geostrategic partner. I can't say much about the MRCA deal as I'm no aviation expert but you will have to retain the Russians with the ATV and possible Akula lease though. What news on the Akula? I have only heard rumours that IN is paying for the completion of an Akula II and is leasing a baseline Akula. On the S-1000 we have heard even less so it is a fair guess that it was merely a proposal.

The Scorpene delay is a mystery although I believe the delay may be actually the French refusing installation of a "addtional sensor suite" (I take that to mean an Israeli EW/ELINT/COMINT suite) that is not of French origin. The French are awfully fussy about that sort of thing-back in 2003 when the PN wanted integration of SubHarpoons with their Agostas the French refused to ToT and backed down when the PN also agreed to purchase Exocets. Negotiations are probably commencing on those issues. Remember every variant of a baseline design is modified to meet the buyer's mission parameters and the IN SubArm is known as a very fussy end user with extensive customisation to their SSKs.

This implies that the Marlin is more or less out of the question.

Further sir, the IN wants vertical missile launch capability in these six submarines. May I have your comments on that…

I would still give the Marlin a chance although I don't see just how much capability it offers over the customised Scorpenes of P75. Not exactly money for value at the moment. The issue is just how much Barracuda is going to be in the Marlin. Just because they have the same visual signature does not mean they are similar at all. VL customisation will undoubtedly be interesting as the only SSK that seems to offer that is the Amur1950-also largely unknown in the critical areas of systems, sensor, weapons fit etc In industry they have a general 'rating' system of SSK designs similar to fighter aircraft-from the top of my head-only as a general guide as subs are extensively customised, eg. the RSAN's type 209/1400 are actually considered approaching 3rd gen.

1st gen-Daphne class and other pre-70's designs

2nd gen-type 209 baseline, agosta70

"2.5 gen"-agosta90b, evolved type 209 variants

3rd gen-Scorpene, U214

"3.5 gen"-marlin and s80a as both are evolved Scorpenes essentially.

4th gen-U212 as this design is truly considered revolutionary from what I've heard from the USN boys. I guess its the ISUS90 combat management system and other innovations like the IDATS sublaunched SAM we saw last week.

VL capability itself quite useful tactically-against an peer adversary that does not possess a redundant integrated sensor system with stand off attack capability (ie. integrated sensor system of ships, aircraft, UAVs, underwater sensors with detection, tracking and engagement capability). The PN is one so it would make sense in theory as one Amur could obliterate the entire surface squadron of Type 21s in a single engagement. The only problem with that is the Klub-S AshM (small enough to fit into the VLS launch cells) have serious problems requiring redesign of the seeker in the warhead and secondly an underwater VL launch makes one hell of a noise-I'm not exactly sure whether you want that sort of thing especially since I am dead certain both IN and PN have their littorals wired for sound-any matches and the P3s and the IN's upcoming P8s overhead are every sub driver's worst nightmare come true. The counter to VL SSKs are of course surface escorts with area integrated battlespace defence along the lines of AEGIS/SM-2 vessels with Coop Engagement Capability. For those who are not able to procure that sort of high tech the FREMM FFs with Herakles/EMPAR cued with ASter 30 offer limited area coverage-I believe the IN is showing great interest in the Italian variant FREMM (GP and Land Attack) to complement the P17As with Barak II (possibly just in case the Baraks don't work as planned).

I will not be back for quite a while, all the best in the future.

Regards

 

[nitesh]

IndianExpress.com :: Barak deal on CBI radar, Navy awaits panel nod
Barak Deal on CBI radar, Navy awaits panel Nod
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 at 2356 hrs

NEW DELHI, JUNE 17: Responding to an Urgent Navy Requirement, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has cleared a $120-million Deal to Procure Additional Missiles from Israel’s Rafael Advanced Defence Systems Ltd that has been named in CBI’s FIR for alleged kickbacks in the Barak missile defence system deal.

While a final political decision on whether or not to engage the company will be taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) shortly, the procurement has been cleared by MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) after the Navy pressed for urgent missile supplies to arm its Barak ship defence system.

As reported by The Indian Express on March 11, procurement of additional missiles for Barak systems fitted on board 10 Indian warships has been stuck due to the ongoing CBI probe into the original deal that was signed in 2000 by the NDA Government. A $325-million IAF deal for which Rafael’s Spyder Air Defence System has been shortlisted is also stalled for the same reason.

There is a Sense of Urgency to Push the Deal through with Missile Reserves of the Barak Systems Hitting a New Low. It is fitted on all frontline warships, including the INS Viraat aircraft carrier, to protect them against missile attacks.

The Navy had again brought this to the notice of the Defence Minister earlier this year and had written a letter urging for Immediate Replacements. Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta also threw his weight behind the Deal in March, saying he is “Very Happy” with the Performance of the “Proven Barak System”.

Defence watchers say that while the Barak missile deal is likely to be cleared by the Government in view of the Navy’s requirement, the Spyder deal may take a bit longer to get through.

In 2006, the Navy had Projected a Requirement of 250 Missiles that would cost an estimated $120 million for its 10 Barak Systems. But the deal was stalled after CBI named both Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael, which jointly developed the system, in a FIR lodged on October 9, 2006.

While the MoD has got clearances from both the Central Vigilance Commission and the CBI to go ahead with the Barak deal, the procurement is stuck till a political decision is taken by the Government.

Again politics is affecting the readiness of defense forces

 

[Contrarian]

In any case state owned Mazagoan is the only shipyard the IN trusts to manufacture SSKs under license which rules out other private yards like Hinduistan-creating this backlog as Mazagoan is also repsonsible for every other major surface combatant India is producing indigenously. In short, this means that in order to achieve the numbers IN will be forced to import at least six SSKs and the incentive is that some of these probably will be constructed in their home countries to meet the 2020 date as opposed to PN's requirement that they be locally manufactured under licence.

MoD is now allowing private shipyards to manufacture Naval warships now because of the severe capacity crunch in the Govt shipyards. Infact L&T shipyard comming up will be the one bidding for the manufacture of the next line of submarines.

Eventually, most of the major private shipyards comming up in India will be given licence to manufacture naval ships.