Indian stock market overtakes France; becomes sixth biggest

[jamahir]

We are extremely socialist. Government spends a lot on free food/subsidised food/free education/ free healthcare.

I have replied to such posts many a time.

Which "extremely Socialist" country allows 300,000+ farmers to commit suicide for socio-economic reasons ? In fact to commit suicide at all for socio-economic reasons ?

And below are three of my threads that don't quite describe India as an "extremely Socialist" country :

India - student suicide by one aspiring to write a major exam

NEET aspirant dies by suicide ahead of exam in Tamil Nadu's Salem Onmanorama Staff Published: September 12, 2021 04:00 PM IST Updated: September 12, 2021 08:57 PM IST Dhanush Salem: A NEET candidate committed suicide ahead of the entrance exam in Tamil Nadu's Salem. A native of Mettur in...

defence.pk

India - Jobless engineer slits son's throat, takes poison with wife : Cops

Jobless Engineer Slits Son's Throat, Takes Poison With Wife: Cops Both the man (55) and his wife were in acute depression, according to a primary probe based on the latter's statements. Her statements also revealed that the couple had planned the entire episode nearly two to three days ago...

defence.pk

Indian woman student commits suicide because of no scholarship funds received

Trigger Warning: LSR Student Dies By Suicide Due To Financial Pressures As Per Note Soumyaseema Sun 8 November 2020, 12:02 PM IST Nowadays, it is not at all rare to see students stressed, anxious, or perplexed about their future. The ongoing pandemic has added to those concerns in every...

defence.pk

About "free healthcare" I will first quote from a post of mine about the much-touted Ayushman Bharat program aka PM-JAY :

I searched in the PM-JAY website for "blindness" and it gave me thispage but on going to that page there was no mention of "blindness".

There is the below text :

Benefit Cover Under PM-JAY
Benefit cover under various Government-funded health insurance schemes in India have always been structured on an upper ceiling limit ranging from an annual cover of INR30,000 to INR3,00,000 per family across various States which created a fragmented system. PM-JAY provides cashless cover of up to INR5,00,000 to each eligible family per annum for listed secondary and tertiary care conditions. The cover under the scheme includes all expenses incurred on the following components of the treatment.

• Medical examination, treatment and consultation
• Pre-hospitalization
• Medicine and medical consumables
• Non-intensive and intensive care services
• Diagnostic and laboratory investigations
• Medical implantation services (where necessary)
• Accommodation benefits
• Food services
• Complications arising during treatment
• Post-hospitalization follow-up care up to 15 days

The benefits of INR 5,00,000 are on a family floater basis which means that it can be used by one or all members of the family. The RSBY had a family cap of five members. However, based on learnings from those schemes, PM-JAY has been designed in such a way that there is no cap on family size or age of members. In addition, pre-existing diseases are covered from the very first day. This means that any eligible person suffering from any medical condition before being covered by PM-JAY will now be able to get treatment for all those medical conditions as well under this scheme right from the day they are enrolled.

1. What about treatments that can cost more than five lakhs, like liver transplant : 20+ lakhs ?

2. What if more than a person in a family has disease and the cost goes above the five lakh ceiling ? Like in Corona cases there are a few families that have theirs members admitted for Corona in the same hospital. This treatment costs quite a bit IIRC.

3. Why can't all treatments be made free and for all ?

And if free healthcare exists in the country why are there crowdsourcing organizations like Ketto which ask common citizens to chip in with money for medical treatments of other Indians with the treatments costing from a few thousands to 15 lakhs to 16 crores. Below is my thread from some months ago :

India - Six-month-old with Spinal Muscular Atrophy dies in Kerala amid crowdfunding efforts

Six-month-old with Spinal Muscular Atrophy dies in Kerala amid crowdfunding efforts Recently, Rs 18 crore was raised through crowdfunding for the treatment of one-and-a-half-year-old Muhammed in Kannur, who was also suffering from the same genetic disease. IMAGE FOR REPRESENTATION NEWS DEATH...

defence.pk

A similar case was of another young boy with SMA whose injection requires 16 crores for just one dose and towards his cause Farah Khan and Deepika Padukone had appeared in the Friday special guest episode of KBC last week.

And what is the government doing ? Building temples and new PM house and religious statues ( world's tallest ), purchasing imitation airplanes of the American Air Force Ones etc instead of spending on building free hospitals, purchasing and procuring costly medicines from abroad like in case of SMA cases. Couldn't Modi have set aside some tens of crores for the SMA injections from his 20,000 crore Central Vista project that includes a new PM house ? Is his new palace more important than the life of these children and patients generally ? The central government with much fanfare airlifted some Hindus and Sikhs from Afghanistan and the chaatukaar media excitedly interviewed live some of those evacuees right at the Indian airport but there are children in Uttar Pradesh who are still dying of dengue or are at least seriously ill because of lack of hospitals and staff yet the central government or the state government has not airlifted those children to say Bombay or Delhi for immediate treatment. A ridiculous contradiction !

And during the COVID second wave last year it wasn't just the poor and the middle class dying of it, even a supposedly privileged former ambassador died in a Delhi hospital's parking lot because there was no ICU bed available. And I am sure that hospital wasn't certainly a free-treatment hospital.

People at the bottom don't care about anything more then basic existence.

Agreed, they should organize and demand change. There have been older-time worker unions but now there are the farmer protests which is encouraging.

Even middle class people lack in ambition.

Agreed. Most of them are idiots ( I am including the Indian Muslim middle class too ) wanting nothing more in life than an engineering or MBA degree, a marriage, religion, children and repeat cycle. Doesn't matter that their compatriots, even in their own white collar companies, face injustice. Even they may themselves suffer but they don't organize and demand change. They are the main reason for the existence of right-wing thought in India. Just look at what class are these two women. What has been the political, economic, social and technological contribution of the "educated" Indian middle class to India and the world ? Quite less.

Side note about organizing : I almost created an employee union in an ITES company I worked in for less than a year between 2013 and 2014. If I had seen the plan to completion it would have been the first employee union in the India IT / ITES industry. I had plans for encouragement of this for all such companies throughout India. Foolishly I resigned from the company.

So if your disrupt the upper classes by trying to capture their wealth, Indian economy will crash.
Remember, we don't lack farmers.
We lack businessmen.

Capture their wealth ? I don't need their billions within the country. Money is an artificial construct anyway. It is just that human and material resources have to be reorganized and this need not always require money. I simply propose changing the socio-economic system to one where the basic needs are free and where the traditional Capitalist economic classification ( poor, middle, rich ) has been eradication. Please read this proposal of mine. The formerly rich will become regular citizens who will have access to resources like any other citizen.

And then read my replies to Magra above in this thread in post# 62 reply to Magra and follow the convo.

A basic thing about most human beings= they won't work harder than they currently do, unless the reward is much bigger.

If you are talking about the pitfalls of making everything free then I will again point to my above linked proposal where there is an evolved form on money which will have to be regenerated for the month through contribution.

Further, you seem to want more state monopolies. Bad idea.

If you are talking about banks then please again read my post# 62 reply to Magra and then follow the convo.

In that case, the leadership of the country will become totalitarian, and will start enjoying all the perks you associate with industrialists.
Eg- Gaddafi.

You have misjudged Gaddafi. He stepped down as the executive leader of Libya in the 1970s and let the direct democracy Jamahiriya system that he and his comrades had devised, to govern Libya then on and he became the ideological guide. Libya wasn't a totalitarian-based country but one where the common citizens governed themselves directly without parties and five-yearly elections and such things associated with Western-style so-called democracies. From a 2015 thread ( not mine ) :

Contrary to popular belief, Libya, which western media routinely described as “Gaddafi’s military dictatorship” was in actual fact one of the world’s most democratic States.

Under Gaddafi’s unique system of direct democracy, traditional institutions of government were disbanded and abolished, and power belonged to the people directly through various committees and congresses.

Far from control being in the hands of one man, Libya was highly decentralized and divided into several small communities that were essentially “mini-autonomous States” within a State. These autonomous States had control over their districts and could make a range of decisions including how to allocate oil revenue and budgetary funds. Within these mini autonomous States, the three main bodies of Libya’s democracy were Local Committees, Basic People’s Congresses and Executive Revolutionary Councils.

The Basic People’s Congress (BPC), or Mu’tamar shaʿbi asāsi was essentially Libya’s functional equivalent of the House of Commons in the United Kingdom or the House of Representatives in the United States. However, Libya’s People’s Congress was not comprised merely of elected representatives who discussed and proposed legislation on behalf of the people; rather, the Congress allowed all Libyans to directly participate in this process. Eight hundred People’s Congresses were set up across the country and all Libyans were free to attend and shape national policy and make decisions over all major issues including budgets, education, industry, and the economy.

In 2009, Gaddafi invited the New York Times to Libya to spend two weeks observing the nation’s direct democracy. The New York Times, that has traditionally been highly critical of Colonel Gaddafi’s democratic experiment, conceded that in Libya, the intention was that

“everyone is involved in every decision…Tens of thousands of people take part in local committee meetings to discuss issues and vote on everything from foreign treaties to building schools.”

The fundamental difference between western democratic systems and the Libyan Jamahiriya’s direct democracy is that in Libya all citizens were allowed to voice their views directly – not in one parliament of only a few hundred wealthy politicians – but in hundreds of committees attended by tens of thousands of ordinary citizens. Far from being a military dictatorship, Libya under Mr. Gaddafi was Africa’s most prosperous democracy.

On numerous occasions Mr. Gaddafi’s proposals were rejected by popular vote during Congresses and the opposite was approved and enacted as legislation.

For instance, on many occasions Mr. Gaddafi proposed the abolition of capital punishment and he pushed for home schooling over traditional schools. However, the People’s Congresses wanted to maintain the death penalty and classic schools, and the will of the People’s Congresses prevailed. Similarly, in 2009, Colonel Gaddafi put forward a proposal to essentially abolish the central government altogether and give all the oil proceeds directly to each family. The People’s Congresses rejected this idea too.

For over four decades, Gaddafi promoted economic democracy and used the nationalized oil wealth to sustain progressive social welfare programs for all Libyans. Under Gaddafi’s rule, Libyans enjoyed not only free health-care and free education, but also free electricity and interest-free loans.

This vid is of a Libyan girl delivering a defiant public message to Obomba, Bliar and co. during the NATO+GCC bombing of Libya during the middle of 2011.

 

[lightoftruth]

Were Prophet Isa, Prophet Muhammad and Marx graduates of the London School of Economics to have produced wonderful ideas on socio-economics ? Even I am not yet I have written down some sensible ideas.

None of them are in 21st century, stop being delusional.

I don't know what are WACC and hedging nor want to know them ( let's keep things simple in such an artificial construct as money ) and wasn't it BJP MP Subramanian Swamy himself who once spoke about wanting India to abolish income tax ?

You clearly have no knowledge about banking, finance or macro economics , its better if you stick to Islam/communism.

 

[jamahir]

None of them are in 21st century, stop being delusional.

I consider modern Communism to be a set of ideas in a line from older progressive philosophies including the teachings of Prophet Isa and Prophet Muhammad. These ideas are eternal. See for yourself. Below is Google result for "Communism" :

Communism is a philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state. Wikipedia

Just take "common ownership" as example. Don't we have open source computer software and open source medicine formulas ?

Below is a section from my thread from 2016 whose OP is an article written by the Pakistani journalist Nadeem Paracha and is about Socialist and Communist activism and thought among Muslims since the early 1900s. In the section an Islamic scholar from undivided India finds similarity between Islam and Communism :

During the same period (1920s-30s), another (though lesser known) Islamic scholar in undivided India got smitten by the 1917 Russian revolution and Marxism.

Hafiz Rahman Sihwarwl saw Islam and Marxism sharing five elements in common: (1) prohibition of the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the privileged classes (2) organisation of the economic structure of the state to ensure social welfare (3) equality of opportunity for all human beings (4) priority of collective social interest over individual privilege and (5) prevention of the permanentising of class structure through social revolution.

The motivations for many of these themes he drew from the Qur’an, which he understood as seeking to create an economic order in which the rich pay excessive, though voluntary taxes (Zakat) to minimise differences in living standards.

In the areas that Sihwarwl saw Islam and communism diverge were Islam’s sanction of private ownership within certain limits, and in its refusal to recognise an absolutely classless basis of society.

He suggested that Islam, with its prohibition of the accumulation of wealth, is able to control the class structure through equality of opportunity.

Basically, both Sindhi and Sihwarwl had stumbled upon an Islamic concept of the social democratic welfare state.

This finding was about a 100 years ago, long before you and I were born.

You clearly have no knowledge about banking, finance or macro economics , its better if you stick to Islam/communism.

Please read on at least from post# 62 and the subsequent convo between me, Magra and Prashant. You will see that I know more about macro-economics and banking than any graduate of London School of Economics or IIM-Bangalore.

And since you mention Islam and Communism, well, parts of them are about socio-economics. Things like compulsory bridal gift / alimony / payment pledged or given at the time of wedding to be used by the woman in case of divorce ( in Islam ) and the desire for money system itself to be abolished ( in Communism ).

 

[magra]

Unlike Chinese the North Koreans don't have to go to India to get medical treatment.

And you posted a picture of some people with the same, regimented dress. There are vids and pics of North Koreans with colorful dress too. And it is so nice that private cars and two-wheelers are generally absent there.

Yes, they have free healthcare, free public transport, free education etc.

And they have modern amenities like LED TVs too.

Can you give us some credible proof of this comfortable life of North Koreans you say. As I understand, outside of its capital Pyongyang, people live a very harsh life.

As I said, money is an artificial construct which should just exist in a computer. Even in Capitalist America it is like this. A bank has should have no other function than giving loan, keeping track of loan repayment and recording transaction. Is there a need for half a dozen banks to exist to do these three things ?

The funds came from sale of oil. Given time they would have perhaps adopted an evolved idea of money like the one I described.

Fine, you can sell your country's natural resource - say oil - and fund banks for some years. This is what Gulf nations did in the last half century. What happens after this resource is over. Even Saudi Arabia has started collecting taxes from its citizens now. Your method of 'no interest' banks is an unsustainable one.

But why not have the most simplest of weddings in the court with a total and compulsory attendance of five ? All well-wishers can later send their greetings over phone or email.

Govt can definitely encourage and facilitate but not force. It is not govt's business to dictate how people can spend their own money. We are not a dictatorship.

In India the police seriously raid weddings where so-called child marriages are going on. It is another discussion that 16-year-old girls are also called children in recent India but if the police and "social activists" can raid such weddings in all seriousness and arrest the wedding arrangers then why can't they seriously raid weddings where dowry is being given and taken and arrest them ?

Police cannot raid without a warrant and a warrant cannot be issued without getting a complaint. In most cases, no one complains. Dowries may also be given before or after the wedding and not necessarily at the wedding venue. How will the police track down without getting any tip-off?

 

[srshkmr]

Unlike Chinese the North Koreans don't have to go to India to get medical treatment.

And you posted a picture of some people with the same, regimented dress. There are vids and pics of North Koreans with colorful dress too. And it is so nice that private cars and two-wheelers are generally absent there.



Yes, they have free healthcare, free public transport, free education etc.

And they have modern amenities like LED TVs too.



Please see above.



As I said, money is an artificial construct which should just exist in a computer. Even in Capitalist America it is like this. A bank has should have no other function than giving loan, keeping track of loan repayment and recording transaction. Is there a need for half a dozen banks to exist to do these three things ?



The funds came from sale of oil. Given time they would have perhaps adopted an evolved idea of money like the one I described.



But why not have the most simplest of weddings in the court with a maximum attendance of five ? All well-wishers can later send their greetings over phone or email.



In India the police seriously raid weddings where so-called child marriages are going on. It is another discussion that 16-year-old girls are also called children in recent India but if the police and "social activists" can raid such weddings in all seriousness and arrest the wedding arrangers then why can't they seriously raid weddings where dowry is being given and taken and arrest them ?



Organic Farming can be used but it has to be done in conjunction with two modern techniques - Vertical Farming and general Urban Farming.

Vertical Farming generally uses the crops being held in a holder / tray arrangement and the trays having recyclable water-based nutrient solution ( the hydroponics technique ) and above the holders will be electric LED lamps providing the light to the crops with the lamp light tunable to replicate the sunlight cycle and it seems that blue light that can be emitted by tunable LED lamps is better for plant growth. And these trays being stacked up to multiple levels in each floor of a building of five storeys. And the nutrient solution, the lamps and the plant growth monitored and controlled by computer. Even the farm's temperature can be controlled. You can potentially grow any type of crop ( say cauliflower, wheat and mango ) in a Vertical Farm.

Imagine if in the current Indian rural landscape the population of 20 villages is gathered and given a new township that has five Vertical Farms at neighborhood-level and the former village farmers retrained for this more scientific way of agriculture. And the township having every facility that modern cities have - malls, parks, cinema halls, free WiFi, restaurants etc and no former village culture is allowed to continue. Imagine such new townships dotting all over India. The country will be food-secure hugely. Side effect will be evolution of the former villagers. Imagine it many of the current Indian city dwellers are given such new townships with a few of the neighborhood's citizens designated to work in the Vertical Farm for a time per week in rotation. This is an article on an Indian website speaking on VFs.

Vertical Farming is the future of agriculture. It not only makes food-security in the world, eliminating threat by flood, drought, pest attack, hailstone, snow, storm and soil exhaustion, thus eliminating hunger. VF will also serve for food production on spacecraft and on other worlds.

About my mention of general Urban Farming it is in two senses - growing crops in empty / unused spaces in current cities and doing this as a temporary step towards VFs. Below picture is from Caracas city, capital of Venezuela :

Please move to NK mate, we will fund your one way trip

 

[jamahir]

Can you give us some credible proof of this comfortable life of North Koreans you say. As I understand, outside of its capital Pyongyang, people live a very harsh life.

About the free facilities you can search Wikipedia for instance. But two things I am unable to find are interviews of two Western young men who traveled to North Korea. One was an American named Nile Bowie who also wrote a blog about his experience with pictures and all and the other was a German named Kai. This was in 2012 and after, IIRC.

Further, there was a short interview of Harpal Brar, the leader of the Communist Party of Great Britain-ML who also had traveled to North Korea. He said that NK is a mountainous country so they are not able to grow that much food crop hence the scarcity. But they still do good enough for the situation. The interview was done by a nice British journalist Morris Herman whose YT vids I used to follow in the early 2010s. They were about the Libya and Syria wars and other things. Morris had interview those two NK-traveling young men I mentioned earlier.

I searched for all these vids but turns out that sadly Morris passed away in 2019 and YT has terminated his account so no vids are available now.

Fine, you can sell your country's natural resource - say oil - and fund banks for some years. This is what Gulf nations did in the last half century. What happens after this resource is over. Even Saudi Arabia has started collecting taxes from its citizens now. Your method of 'no interest' banks is an unsustainable one.

Well, if the country requires a resource from outside a Socialist or Communist bloc, say from Capitalist Germany, then it has to give Germany something in return and this something can be money or say oil or diamonds. This then requires external sales of the country's natural resources like oil, diamond or agro products. For example USSR was self-sufficient for many needs and it did non-money-based exchanges with allied countries like East Germany and I think the loans it gave to non-Eastern but supposedly friendly countries like India were not interest-based.

It may also happen that the country may have foreign workers and the workers are paid in internationally-accepted currency like the exchangeable rupee or the dollar which the workers can remit to their native countries.

Other than this it doesn't matter that the internal economy and banking doesn't run on interest.

Govt can definitely encourage and facilitate but not force. It is not govt's business to dictate how people can spend their own money. We are not a dictatorship.

But is it the government's business to allow wedding-spending-related suicides to continue for so many farmers and for the middle class to become middle class poor after spending their "life savings" on the wedding ?

Certain wrong things need certain strict rules else many people will not reform.

Police cannot raid without a warrant and a warrant cannot be issued without getting a complaint. In most cases, no one complains. Dowries may also be given before or after the wedding and not necessarily at the wedding venue. How will the police track down without getting any tip-off?

You make valid points. I have these suggestions :

1. It may not be always that a bride and groom are able to have two witnesses for a court wedding because it may happen that the bride and groom are marrying despite opposition from their respective families and the couple may not have access to friends ATM because of various reasons so the court wedding should be able to happen without two witnesses too in such cases.

2. In case the families don't oppose, like in arranged marriages, it should be made compulsory that all the legally adult immediate family members on either side have to have bank accounts so that the court is able to know if there has been a money dowry transfer. In case the dowry is not money then check such other transfers - jewelry, house etc.

3. Make pre-nuptial agreements compulsory so that the bride is able to socio-economically sustain herself in case of divorce ( make divorce part of the system too culturally ). It may also happen that the parents of the woman may not support her after divorce. This we have spoken before in that other thread.

Please move to NK mate, we will fund your one way trip

Hello mate. Who is this "we", mate ? Why not make India like NK, mate ? Don't you want free hospitals, free education and free public transport in India, mate ? In fact let's better the NK model, mate. True Communism, mate. People ruling themselves and evolved socio-economic system, mate.

 

[Chhatrapati]

I take it as an "exonertaing" statement to not to blame The Lord when God forbid your stock end up losing value over night and also for the subsequent socio economic repercussions which comes with it.

Every investment has a certain risk associated with it. As far as socio-economic repercussions go, the Indian stock market is relatively obscured from mass retail investments. In numbers, that's around 2% of the public and unless there are some events like Corona, or the 2008 type of crash markets don't lose value overnight.

 

[magra]

About the free facilities you can search Wikipedia for instance. But two things I am unable to find are interviews of two Western young men who traveled to North Korea. One was an American named Nile Bowie who also wrote a blog about his experience with pictures and all and the other was a German named Kai. This was in 2012 and after, IIRC.

Further, there was a short interview of Harpal Brar, the leader of the Communist Party of Great Britain-ML who also had traveled to North Korea. He said that NK is a mountainous country so they are not able to grow that much food crop hence the scarcity. But they still do good enough for the situation. The interview was done by a nice British journalist Morris Herman whose YT vids I used to follow in the early 2010s. They were about the Libya and Syria wars and other things. Morris had interview those two NK-traveling young men I mentioned earlier.

I searched for all these vids but turns out that sadly Morris passed away in 2019 and YT has terminated his account so no vids are available now.

You do know that any outsiders visiting North Korea are closely monitored and their trips are guided by officials appointed by the govt. You cannot go and film whatever you like. So what these videos show are only those things the govt wants to project to the world.

Well, if the country requires a resource from outside a Socialist or Communist bloc, say from Capitalist Germany, then it has to give Germany something in return and this something can be money or say oil or diamonds. This then requires external sales of the country's natural resources like oil, diamond or agro products. For example USSR was self-sufficient for many needs and it did non-money-based exchanges with allied countries like East Germany and I think the loans it gave to non-Eastern but supposedly friendly countries like India were not interest-based.

Any proof that India got zero-interest loans from Russia? And if it did, it may be due to strategic reasons as Russia wanted a strong socialist Indian ally. That decision may not be for economic reasons.
Most of the loans given have to consider the economic aspect and any entity which keeps on giving loans only at 0% rate will go in red.

But is it the government's business to allow wedding-spending-related suicides to continue for so many farmers and for the middle class to become middle class poor after spending their "life savings" on the wedding ?

Certain wrong things need certain strict rules else many people will not reform.

Govt cannot control each decision of its citizens. If the citizens even after being told the ills of high spending weddings, choose to do so, the govt cannot interfere. Thats the basic difference between a dictatorship and democracy.

1. It may not be always that a bride and groom are able to have two witnesses for a court wedding because it may happen that the bride and groom are marrying despite opposition from their respective families and the couple may not have access to friends ATM because of various reasons so the court wedding should be able to happen without two witnesses too in such cases.

So you think the 2 witness rule is unnecessary? I believe this rule is there as a safeguard against fraud.

2. In case the families don't oppose, like in arranged marriages, it should be made compulsory that all the legally adult immediate family members on either side have to have bank accounts so that the court is able to know if there has been a money dowry transfer. In case the dowry is not money then check such other transfers - jewelry, house etc.

Few issues with above
1. Dowry can also involve paying cash, instead of electronic transfer.
2. Money can be paid months after wedding when the surveillance is off.
3. Not all bank accounts may be revealed to the govt.
4. Some transactions may be for genuine reasons and the govt will have a hard time to differentiate.
5. All this surveillance would require a new agency with lots of extra personnel and thus a massive fund allocation.

3. Make pre-nuptial agreements compulsory so that the bride is able to socio-economically sustain herself in case of divorce ( make divorce part of the system too culturally ). It may also happen that the parents of the woman may not support her after divorce. This we have spoken before in that other thread.

We already discussed that pre-nuptials are not perfect as they cannot predict when the divorce will happen, what will be the economic conditions of the couple at the time, what will be the family size at that time etc.

Govt should actually step in at the time of divorce to ensure that the wife and the kids get their fare share.
It will be much easier to handle because if lets say the divorce rate is 5%, then the govt only needs to work on those 5% cases, rather than monitor all 100% marriages as is the case in pre-nuptials.

Hello mate. Who is this "we", mate ? Why not make India like NK, mate ? Don't you want free hospitals, free education and free public transport in India, mate ? In fact let's better the NK model, mate. True Communism, mate. People ruling themselves and evolved socio-economic system, mate.

If you want a welfare state - free healthcare, education, public transport - there are better examples than NK. You can look towards Scandinavian countries.

 

[applesauce]

Well, most company decisions don't need real-time decision-making and can be done in consultation with all workers. In Libya the entire country was run on public debate through direct democracy system called Jamahiriya. From a 2015 thread :

Even Elon Musk wants direct democracy as the political arrangement for Mars colonies.

Also you use the word "vote". I think we must make clear that this should also involve not just a person saying yes or no but also qualify it with his reasoning and possibly provide some other idea. This is how I think it worked in Libya. I quote a section from the Green Book which described the Jamahiriya philosophy :

First of all, Elon Musk isnt some god. what he wants and what actually works are different things.
second, I am unfamiliar with the politics of libya so i wont say much about it, but what I can say is that libya had almost the same GDP in 2011(the eve of its revolution) as it did in 1992, that's nearly 20 years with no improvement, so maybe its political leadership/system isnt the best.

Some days ago I read the sci-fi book The Precipice by Ben Bova which has a lot of the scenes set on a Moon colony called Selene. In one scene there is a decision to be taken that affects all of the permanent residents of Selene so these residents are called to the amphitheatre to appraise the residents and take their ideas.

what's a sci-fi book got to do with anything? WH40k has a imperial system filled with slavery, clamp downs on knowledge and all kinds of exploitation yet the empire is roughly stable for 10,000+ years against unimaginable threats including actual gods, that don't mean we should take it seriously as a political guide book on how to run your country.

But you tell me what kinds of real-time decisions have to be made that shouldn't involve the workers ?

first of all have you ever even held a job? you speak like someone whose read some books but have zero real life experience.

direct votes might work for a business or country of 7 people. However I work for a company that has nearly 100k employees in just about every single country on earth and we deal in the many tens of billions a year. do you even realize how many important decisions are being made every hour across the globe 24/7? just the sheer amount of voting that would have to happen means nothing gets done and nobody gets to sleep. then there is the issue of qualifications, why on earth would we have assembly line employees vote on whether Milan is a good market to enter into with our new products? the hell would we let our janitors vote on whether to aquire a smaller rival and whether that would be beneficial? or how about when something comes up in the supply chain? if there is a shortage of chips, and we found supply at 50% more price but it needs to happen now or the supply is gone(bought by someone else), you think a company that is going to take the time to vote is going to outcompete a company who has the leadership that has the authority to buy immediately?

Agreed and that is why I said "but I don't know how that can be done ATM". Though new developments like 3D Printing and Vertical Farming can reduce the shortages greatly.

sure but those aren't not wide spread. and they at best would "reduce" shortages but not eliminate them

So 72 years since the founding of the People's Republic and neither has China initiated the "Withering away of the State" ( people's rule, direct democracy ) like happened in Libya nor has China presented an economic model where the traditional money system has been replaced or at least evolved ( like how I have done ). What have the CCP's party theoreticians been doing ?

plenty, they tried different things to test them out, afterall nobody has actually created a functioning communist system or even a well functioning political system that is on the way there. china already has direct democracy at the lower levels, ie villages. this is again going back to the whole direct democracy works on small scales but not well on large scales. it has tried communes, which didn't work, it tried national directives, which results in the failure that is the GLF. then it found that perhaps capitalism is not a step they should skip and tried small scale free trade zones and found that it brought great increases in productivity and reduced shortages and remember reducing shortages is a large step towards national improvement that allows further steps toward socialism/communism.

Plus what makes you think 72 years is a long time for such a project? the CCP itself doesn't think its even remotely close to being done, only stating it'll try for "moderately developed" economy by 2035

Also what you have "done" is present a bunch of unrealistic childish dreams of a utopia, completely unworkable in the present real world. Fantastic if it works but we live in the real world, and in the real world, there isnt a magic star trek replicator, and we aren't all educated in every single skill to qualify us to make every single decision of the state, nor do we all have magic instantaneous chips implanted in our brains to allow instant voting on all matters of the state.

How ?

it is compatible because capitalism is a step towards socialism, that's what marxist theory says

Never understood what that means.

its means the ability to adapt. china does not take marxist theory wholesale and it believes that not everything which works in one place can be directly transplanted and work in another setting and that the path isnt the important part but the end goal is. in china this is summed in Deng's " "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat.". china will follow the theory and aim for the same end goal but add its own changes and "flares" as needed.
This was already a thing when the CCP transition to become a peasant's party in the 1930s, seeking revolution from the peasants rather than the industrial workers as per traditional theory practiced successfully for real in the soviet union.
This is also why you see a mix of public and private and state owned companies in china without any drag on its political theory and why it does not promote its ideology abroad.

So the Socialists and Communists of the world must link up, discuss and plan like in the older times.

not at all, the idea is that once everyone prospers then people will naturally come together. no need for some weird cosplay party.

 

[jamahir]

First of all, Elon Musk isnt some god. what he wants and what actually works are different things.

Elon has some good ideas and he has directed his life towards realizing those ideas unlike most people in Capitalist societies, including China, who remain happy being wage slaves unless more sensible people in those societies give direction to those people.

What is wrong with Elon wanting direct democracy for Mars ? It worked well in Libya for decades and has been adapted by Venezuela because of Gaddafi and Hugo Chavez being comrades.

second, I am unfamiliar with the politics of libya so i wont say much about it

But I provided you with text of how some of it worked. Why do you not accept it ? As said in the article even the otherwise hostile New York Times accepted that Libya had real democracy.

but what I can say is that libya had almost the same GDP in 2011(the eve of its revolution) as it did in 1992, that's nearly 20 years with no improvement, so maybe its political leadership/system isnt the best.

1. Why should you care about GDP and such things ? My country India is the world's 5th largest economy as of a couple of years ago but should I say that India is a very harmonious society with no socio-economic deprivations ? What is the improvement you wanted in Libya ? The people lived quite happy. They had a Socialist welfare-based society unlike China where people commit suicide because they lose money in the stock market and the socio-economic system there doesn't mind despite calling itself Socialist and supposedly desiring a Communist society. Please watch this vid about some facts of Libya and how Libyan people receive Gaddafi on the streets. @magra, you must watch it.

2. And that 2011 "revolution" was not a revolution but a regime-change operation by NATO+GCC which also saw invasion by thousands of transnational criminals supported by the said two blocs. Why do you call it a revolution ? The real Libyan revolution was the 1969 one which brought Gaddafi and his comrades into a position of governance and leadership and they kicked out the Western-supported king. Watch this short vid from mid-2011 of a Libyan girl defiantly speaking against the NATO+GCC bombing of the country and giving a message to Obomba, Bliar and co. and speaking in support of Gaddafi.

what's a sci-fi book got to do with anything? WH40k has a imperial system filled with slavery, clamp downs on knowledge and all kinds of exploitation yet the empire is roughly stable for 10,000+ years against unimaginable threats including actual gods, that don't mean we should take it seriously as a political guide book on how to run your country.

I speak of a good sci-fi book and you return with a silly video game ? There is another sci-fi book series, Dune, and it inspired many in terms of socio-economics, human interaction, technology, philosophy and space exploration and the effect it will have on humanity. And then there is the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson which is considered by some to be textbooks for Mars settlement and terraforming. The trilogy also includes an attempt by the protagonists to create an economic system based on Martian socio-economic conditions. I believe I have a much superior and simpler system.

first of all have you ever even held a job? you speak like someone whose read some books but have zero real life experience.

1. You speak derisively of books so should I now dismiss the progressive ideas written in the Quran 1400 years ago ? You imply later in your post that your country China is on way to realize a Communist society yet will you dismiss the various writings of Socialist and Communist thought from around the world ?

2. Yes, I have held a few jobs including being a teacher in a computer institute and I was popular there. More recently I worked for less than a year in an ITES company between 2013 and 2014 and seeing some wrongs being done against me and a few others I decided to establish an employee union. I didn't know that the Indian Constitution gave right to the worker to join or establish a union. The idea just came to me organically. And it anyway always existed everywhere in the world. I spoke to some co-workers about this but somehow the word leaked to the local manager who aggressively lectured me. But I told the assistant manager that I wanted to speak to the main branch's HR team so he set up the meeting. The lady there asked me what to do. But foolishly instead of telling her that I wanted to establish the union, which I could have really done, I told her that I would resign from the company. My original plan was that having established the union in my local branch I would have encouraged the workers in the main branch to join the union. This would have been the first employee union in the Indian IT / ITES industry. And I would have encouraged all the workers in the two branches to speak to their friends and family in other IT / ITES companies across India. This way the working atmosphere in this industry here would have improved. But I resigned. Foolish of me. Couple of years later when I met the state secretary for my state of one of the Communist groups in India he and I discussed this short attempt of mine in the two or three meetings we had.

So yes, I have seen some life and I have taken leadership charge when required. How about you ? But it shouldn't mean that it requires 40 years of job experience in a Capitalist global company which has 100,000 employees like your company, to come out with ideas and preach of older progressive ideas. Was Prophet Isa ( Jesus ) some CEO of Microsoft to preach against the perils of the traditional money lenders ? Prophet Muhammad, before he attained enlightenment, was the manager of the business woman who was later to become his wife ( Hazrat Khadija ). He wasn't some graduate of London School of Economics who then worked in your global company for 30 years.

direct votes might work for a business or country of 7 people. However I work for a company that has nearly 100k employees in just about every single country on earth and we deal in the many tens of billions a year.

Forgot about your company's 100,000 employees. The Libyan direct democracy system called Jamahiriya, along with its Socialist socio-economic system, worked for an entire country of a few million ! The system as declared in the Green Book ( yes, again a book ) was also known as The Third Universal Theory which was the third way after the Western Capitalist system and the Soviet Communist experiment. And Libya had private businesses too. Though yes, the ideas declared in the Green Book has be to advanced too.

If China's theoreticians failed in bringing out a new political and socio-economic model for humanity it is not Gaddafi's fault. And yes, the "People's Republic" of China has failed despite it being 72 years old. In contrast Gaddafi brought his Green Book within a decade of his revolution.

In the future of humanity China will remain not as an exemplar of political, socio-economic and technological innovation but as a selfish and ultra-nationalist neo-colonial force. It is possible that the whole of Earth might coalesce into a Communist unity but China will remain separate.

then there is the issue of qualifications, why on earth would we have assembly line employees vote on whether Milan is a good market to enter into with our new products? the hell would we let our janitors vote on whether to aquire a smaller rival and whether that would be beneficial? or how about when something comes up in the supply chain?

Can you tell me what exactly does your company do ?

Also what you have "done" is present a bunch of unrealistic childish dreams of a utopia, completely unworkable in the present real world.

Did you read my proposal thread ? And then additionally read my post# 62 on this thread.

its means the ability to adapt. china does not take marxist theory wholesale and it believes that not everything which works in one place can be directly transplanted and work in another setting and that the path isnt the important part but the end goal is. in china this is summed in Deng's " "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat.". china will follow the theory and aim for the same end goal but add its own changes and "flares" as needed.

Still I am not clear. Do these Chinese changes and flair compulsorily call for stock market related suicides and the 996 working culture ?

not at all, the idea is that once everyone prospers then people will naturally come together. no need for some weird cosplay party.

And thinking thus China happily collaborates with the Taliban instead of supporting the Socialist / progressive Afghan movement called Solidarity Party of Afghanistan which China should helped in overthrowing the Taliban especially since China is supposedly led by the "Communist" Party of China.

How is China different than the Western governments ?

 

[Protest_again]

I see a lot of people wasting their time with @jamahir. He lives in his own lulu land, let him and move on.

 

[jamahir]

I see a lot of people wasting their time with @jamahir. He lives in his own lulu land, let him and move on.

And you are the next Kanhaiya Kumar or Elon Musk. And millions of Indians living in unnecessary and artificial Capitalism-enabled socio-economic deprivations yet you celebrate some stupid stock market gains. Yes, move on.

 

[Prince Kassad]

Chineese stock market money moving into ours

 

[GamoAccu]

The majority of Indians can not afford to play the stock market. 81% population of India live less than $3.1 and $ 2 a day.

" About 60% of India's nearly 1.3 billion people live on less than $3.10 a day, the World Bank's median poverty line. And 21%, or more than 250 million people, survive on less than $2 a day. "

This is what it means to be poor in India today

My country’s growing wealth hasn’t trickled down. Just ask Amina, who lives in a slum in the shadow of one of India’s glitziest shopping malls.

www.cnn.com

 

[Protest_again]

The majority of Indians can not afford to play the stock market. 81% population of India live less than $3.1 and $ 2 a day.

" About 60% of India's nearly 1.3 billion people live on less than $3.10 a day, the World Bank's median poverty line. And 21%, or more than 250 million people, survive on less than $2 a day. "

This is what it means to be poor in India today

My country’s growing wealth hasn’t trickled down. Just ask Amina, who lives in a slum in the shadow of one of India’s glitziest shopping malls.

www.cnn.com

Mutual fund investments coming from 95% pin codes in India: Phone Pe report