Indian Navy News & Discussions

[Gessler]

Prasun Sengupta reports IN now plans to fit P-15 Delhi DDGs with BrahMos Block-I ASCMs, Barak-2 SAMs
and the same MF-STAR AESA radar as on P-15A in the planned SLEP upgrade.

It was thought previously that P-15 SLEP will only consist of BrahMos replacing Kh-35E and the
VLS-launched 9M317ME replacing arm-launched 9M317s it currently has, while the radar stays the same.

The new upgrade will keep P-15 as a very relevant destroyer in the future.

 

[Dillinger]

Prasun Sengupta reports IN now plans to fit P-15 Delhi DDGs with BrahMos Block-I ASCMs, Barak-2 SAMs
and the same MF-STAR AESA radar as on P-15A in the planned SLEP upgrade.

It was thought previously that P-15 SLEP will only consist of BrahMos replacing Kh-35E and the
VLS-launched 9M317ME replacing arm-launched 9M317s it currently has, while the radar stays the same.

The new upgrade will keep P-15 as a very relevant destroyer in the future.

Hmmm..sounds interesting. But is there enough below-deck space underneath the forward Shtil station for a VLS module for Barak-8? Although a change in the ASR during the SLEP, along with the MF-STAR and Baraks would indeed ensure the relevance of the platform for a good amount of time.

Any more details?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Hmmm..sounds interesting. But is there enough below-deck space underneath the forward Shtil station for a VLS module for Barak-8? Although a change in the ASR during the SLEP, along with the MF-STAR and Baraks would indeed ensure the relevance of the platform for a good amount of time.

Any more details?

There is already a Magazine Compt. below the Launcher. The VLS module can be accommodated there.

 

[Gessler]

Hmmm..sounds interesting. But is there enough below-deck space underneath the forward Shtil station for a VLS module for Barak-8? Although a change in the ASR during the SLEP, along with the MF-STAR and Baraks would indeed ensure the relevance of the platform for a good amount of time.

Any more details?

I have drawn up a rough sketch in Paint to depict what I think would be the outcome -

The Shtil arm-launchers make use of a good deal of below-deck space to store their ready-to-launch rounds of the 9M317 missile (only 1 round can be carried on the launcher at a time). The removal of the Shtil system will free up all that space. In addition, structural modification to a certain extent is again possible and cannot be ruled out (especially given the fact P-15 could be modified to accommodate the the twin Barak-I VLS units (storing 32 missiles total) in the middle of the ship.

The area around the arm-launcher in the rear of P-15 has quite a large space there.

However, there are still some unanswered questions regarding the upgrade -

1) What will happen to the 32 Barak-1 missiles? Will they be retained on the lines of SM-3 and ESSM operating side by side? Or will they be thrown away because the new P-15A design dictates that a ship with Barak-II no longer needs Barak-I (the Barak-1s were added because IN thought 9M317 wasn't so good at intercepting sea-skimmers, which are only detected at close range. Barak-II is designed to have superior performance against both high-flyers and sea-skimmers)?

2) Any RCS-reduction measures in the offing? I don't think it would be a very feasible upgrade WRT to RCS because P-15 was never designed to be low-observable from the outset, but it does not hurt to know IF there will be any form of methods employed to reduce radar, infra-red & acoustic signature of the ship?

I have some more questions that are still waiting for answers in my mind, I will ask the said analyst about the same soon...and let PDF members know the same.

Also, I request TTs like you and others that are in touch with IN to do their research from their side as well and see if they can dig up something about this.

 

[Dillinger]

There is already a Magazine Compt. below the Launcher. The VLS module can be accommodated there.

Well PSK also states that the RAN-40L will go up on the Delhi class during the SLEP. That's a bit weird, considering that even the Kolkata class doesn't use the Selex sensor. He adds that the MF-STPAR/Barak-8 and RAN combo will be standard fitment on the P-17As too, think that's accurate?

 

[Dillinger]

I have drawn up a rough sketch in Paint to depict what I think would be the outcome -

The Shtil arm-launchers make use of a good deal of below-deck space to store their ready-to-launch rounds of the 9M317 missile (only 1 round can be carried on the launcher at a time). The removal of the Shtil system will free up all that space. In addition, structural modification to a certain extent is again possible and cannot be ruled out (especially given the fact P-15 could be modified to accommodate the the twin Barak-I VLS units (storing 32 missiles total) in the middle of the ship.

The area around the arm-launcher in the rear of P-15 has quite a large space there.

However, there are still some unanswered questions regarding the upgrade -

1) What will happen to the 32 Barak-1 missiles? Will they be retained on the lines of SM-3 and ESSM operating side by side? Or will they be thrown away because the new P-15A design dictates that a ship with Barak-II no longer needs Barak-I (the Barak-1s were added because IN thought 9M317 wasn't so good at intercepting sea-skimmers, which are only detected at close range. Barak-II is designed to have superior performance against both high-flyers and sea-skimmers)?

2) Any RCS-reduction measures in the offing? I don't think it would be a very feasible upgrade WRT to RCS because P-15 was never designed to be low-observable from the outset, but it does not hurt to know IF there will be any form of methods employed to reduce radar, infra-red & acoustic signature of the ship?

I have some more questions that are still waiting for answers in my mind, I will ask the said analyst about the same soon...and let PDF members know the same.

Also, I request TTs like you and others that are in touch with IN to do their research from their side as well and see if they can dig up something about this.

See the number game has been killing me. I don't even know how many 8s the kolkata class carries, wiki puts it at 64 for a combo of both barak-1s and 8s with no specification for the break up between the two.

So first someone needs to tell me how many 8s are going on the Kolkata and then whether the 1s will be fitted on it too?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Well PSK also states that the RAN-40L will go up on the Delhi class during the SLEP. That's a bit weird, considering that even the Kolkata class doesn't use the Selex sensor. He adds that the MF-STPAR/Barak-8 and RAN combo will be standard fitment on the P-17As too, think that's accurate?

I do not go by what PSK says; in any case he is not even correct all the time. He annotated the picture of Vikramaditya with some thing that he called the LORAN. That is actually the TACAN, not the same thing at all.

 

[Dillinger]

I do not go by what PSK says; in any case he is not even correct all the time. He annotated the picture of Vikramaditya with some thing that he called the LORAN. That is actually the TACAN, not the same thing at all.

That was quite odd actually since LORAN systems have been out of use for a while now. I actually asked him about it, mentioning that LORAN wasn't used anymore but he insisted that it was going to be used on the Vikramaditya.

 

[Gessler]

See the number game has been killing me. I don't even know how many 8s the kolkata class carries, wiki puts it at 64 for a combo of both barak-1s and 8s with no specification for the break up between the two.

So first someone needs to tell me how many 8s are going on the Kolkata and then whether the 1s will be fitted on it too?

I think it's more like 16 BrahMos and 48 Barak-2s.

I positively don't think ships with -2 need -1 anymore. Not because PSK says so but because it is
all over the net that -2 has better close-range interception capability than -1 (500 m minimum distance
compared to -1's 1000-meter minimum).

I also think -1 is getting quite 'old' now. No new upgrade in sight whatsoever.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I have drawn up a rough sketch in Paint to depict what I think would be the outcome -

The Shtil arm-launchers make use of a good deal of below-deck space to store their ready-to-launch rounds of the 9M317 missile (only 1 round can be carried on the launcher at a time). The removal of the Shtil system will free up all that space. In addition, structural modification to a certain extent is again possible and cannot be ruled out (especially given the fact P-15 could be modified to accommodate the the twin Barak-I VLS units (storing 32 missiles total) in the middle of the ship.

The area around the arm-launcher in the rear of P-15 has quite a large space there.

However, there are still some unanswered questions regarding the upgrade -

1) What will happen to the 32 Barak-1 missiles? Will they be retained on the lines of SM-3 and ESSM operating side by side? Or will they be thrown away because the new P-15A design dictates that a ship with Barak-II no longer needs Barak-I (the Barak-1s were added because IN thought 9M317 wasn't so good at intercepting sea-skimmers, which are only detected at close range. Barak-II is designed to have superior performance against both high-flyers and sea-skimmers)?

2) Any RCS-reduction measures in the offing? I don't think it would be a very feasible upgrade WRT to RCS because P-15 was never designed to be low-observable from the outset, but it does not hurt to know IF there will be any form of methods employed to reduce radar, infra-red & acoustic signature of the ship?

I have some more questions that are still waiting for answers in my mind, I will ask the said analyst about the same soon...and let PDF members know the same.

Also, I request TTs like you and others that are in touch with IN to do their research from their side as well and see if they can dig up something about this.

I do not claim to know what the IN thinks about what the IN thinks wrt the points that you have raised; but some thoughts in response from my side:
1. Replacing the Shtil launchers with Barak MR/LRSAM VLS modules is very doable.
2. No reason to discard the Barak 1 systems at all, space is not at a premium; so no reason to junk them.
3. No major RCS mitigation measures seem possible or practical.
4. Other 'Signature Reduction' measures are very doable most of all the acuostic measures and (imo) infra-red measures. Very practicable and affordable to work on that.

 

[Gessler]

I do not claim to know what the IN thinks about what the IN thinks wrt the points that you have raised; but some thoughts in response from my side:
1. Replacing the Shtil launchers with Barak MR/LRSAM VLS modules is very doable.
2. No reason to discard the Barak 1 systems at all, space is not at a premium; so no reason to junk them.
3. No major RCS mitigation measures seem possible or practical.
4. Other 'Signature Reduction' measures are very doable most of all the acuostic measures and (imo) infra-red measures. Very practicable and affordable to work on that.

I think the new upgrade could make Delhi somewhat comparable to USN Ticonderoga.

Or am I being too optimistic?

 

[Dillinger]

I think the new upgrade could make Delhi somewhat comparable to USN Ticonderoga.

Or am I being too optimistic?

Ticonderoga in terms of sensors, the MF-STAR is as good as the AEGIS but the armament on the Tics is a whole different thing.

I do not claim to know what the IN thinks about what the IN thinks wrt the points that you have raised; but some thoughts in response from my side:
1. Replacing the Shtil launchers with Barak MR/LRSAM VLS modules is very doable.
2. No reason to discard the Barak 1 systems at all, space is not at a premium; so no reason to junk them.
3. No major RCS mitigation measures seem possible or practical.
4. Other 'Signature Reduction' measures are very doable most of all the acuostic measures and (imo) infra-red measures. Very practicable and affordable to work on that.

In that case wouldn't the Shivaliks have been better candidates?

 

[Gessler]

Ticonderoga in terms of sensors, the MF-STAR is as good as the AEGIS but the armament on the Tichs is a whole different thing.



In that case wouldn't the Shivaliks have been better candidates?

I think by the time Shivaliks come in for their first major MLU, they will be upgraded with all the same
stuff as on the newer P-17As currently under development. Barak-IIs and MF-STAR are a must for
all major surface combatants of IN in future.

Secondly, I think P-17A should get BrahMos-II after it becomes available (P-15B will get it first).

 

[Dillinger]

@Gessler my dream has always been that someone would get up a naval variant of one of our ABM interceptors.

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler my dream has always been that someone would get up a naval variant of one of our ABM interceptors.

Yes, a specialized ABM ship should accompany each CBG.