Indian Muslims are out to prove their loyalty once again.

[Jackdaws]

so that is your excuse for committing crimes against humanity?...

pretty shame-full and so glad we dont live in a facist and oppressive india

concerning Bangladesh... writing stories doesnt help but facts do... seriously who really believe 3M million killed in less than 9 months what non sense

think (hard for an indian) for 5 seconds .....

you supposedly held the 42K soldiers ( the rest 53K were men women and children illegally held by indian army) who committed such grave horror stories and the land where it was done. Yet not a single charge was brought against those soldiers. Not even a parking ticket!!!

and yet want to us to believe such mubo jumbo stories?.... your fake surgical strikes was more believable then the east pakistan story.

the truth as below....

Myth-busting the Bangladesh war of 1971 | Bangladesh | Al Jazeera

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/05/20115983958114219.html
View attachment 540561May 9, 2011 - My book Dead Reckoning: Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War, the product of .... But an important reason for falsely claiming that the book .

You are the one comparing numbers. Did I mention 3 million? The number may vary but it is a fact that crimes against humanity on a much larger scale were conducted by your country.

I don't know much about other parts of Pakistan but I've read that even in present day Pak the writ of the Army is Supreme - they can pick up, detain, kill whom they like and no one has a say.

 

[AsifIjaz]

You too. Hope we can have more discussion after things have cooled down a bit. Right now the time is not that good.

Honestly speaking i don't see that happening. Till, India accepts that things hurt us the same way as they hurt you. I can not fathom how India as a country can play innocent and mislead the people as a mass/nation.

You are a hostage to your media and political parties anti pakistan rhetoric. Both countries may do mischief but u cant say that "ur kutta is kutta and mera kutta is doggy" (common punjabi idiom).

 

[Clutch]

Daily reminder that not only will Indian Muslims gladly fight and kill Pakistanis, but they'll also win the highest battle honors while doing so......

Of course they will.... Muslim actions is not synonymous with Islamic beliefs.

Like I said many times before. It isn't about the Muslim individual. I am talking of Islamic foundation belief system.... According to Islamic Akeedah you cannot fight for a kafir nation against a nation of Muslims. He is not a Shaheed and he will be raised amongst the Kafir (idol worshippers) an the Day of Judgement. That is his choice CE.

“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.” (Al-i Imran 3/28)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Rubbish. What about the Kashmiri who face half a million Indian soldiers yet they still chant "Pakistan Zindabad" even when they face bullets.

Umm, yes. I've already mentioned the 2500 who applied for 110 vacancies. That's about a brigade strength.

eat sh it indian now go to your expensive wedding with no toilets.

Ah, the pleasure of knowing you'll be standing by with the lota.

I am referring to the hand wash after the banquet at the expensive wedding, just in case you get the wrong ideas.

1. You cannot side with kafirs ( idol worshipers) against other muslims in a conflict between the two.
2. That is a foundational basis for Islamic ideology and principles.
3. By doing so... they will be raised amongst the kafir in the day of judgement and judged according to the company they sided with. Islamic hkaeeda 101.

Pakistan doesn't need to be the hallmark or leadership of Islam... It just needs muslims who declare the shahaada for the criteria 1 to 3 to be applicable.

And Muslim Indians don't declare the shahaada, according to you??

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri Indian Muslims have gone passed the days where they would invested their time deciding who is a true Muslim and who is not. Economic liberalization in the 90's have opened the flood gate of job and business opportunities in such extent that, every one wants to rally behind this bandwagon of socio-economic progress. Sadly for Pakistanis, the Ummah concept does not apply to Indian Muslims.
And I just laugh at the assertions that a true believer would never fight against another true believer. Such hilarious religious bravado never faced reality throughout history. For example, when Iraq was being ravaged by a so called 'satanic' country, where was Pakistan and where it was getting it's aids from? Look at Chinese Uighur policy. Are they not true Muslims? No, absolutely not. Because proponents of such absurd religious brotherhood logic quite well understand the value of money.

One of the truly disgusting threads (in fact probably the worst one) I had the misfortune of coming across in this forum (and I have been among plenty of muck here trust me, some of my own doing too as Joe knows only too well, as well as @Atlas ) was a thread about Indian muslims here (and extended to Bangladeshi muslims).

It contained some of the most vile stuff I wish I never read (once I started reading, I couldn't stop out of morbid disgust in a way)....especially because lot of members I respected (and still respect) were saying things that made me question if they really are the same people I knew before that. It wasn't really the abusive or filthy language (which is more like superficial surface debris tbh) but it was the undertone of the current itself ...treated as perfectly accepted fact (that really gave competition to lenin, trotsky and goebbels narrative implantation)

It is a very emotional thing I concluded, that strikes to the very narrative of formation and identity etc for themselves....it is how I reconciled (because I did think of leaving forever right then and there) and ultimately forgave those members after the shock diminished enough. But it is definitely one of the major takeaways (I had little idea on previously) for me from this forum....that now I simply will have to take into account "out there". It is rare, but it does happen.

 

[The Sandman]

Of course they will.... Muslim actions is not synonymous with Islamic beliefs.

Like I said many times before. It isn't about the Muslim individual. I am talking of Islamic foundation belief system.... According to Islamic Akeedah you cannot fight for a kafir nation against a nation of Muslims. He is not a Shaheed and he will be raised amongst the Kafir (idol worshippers) an the Day of Judgement. That is his choice CE.

“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.” (Al-i Imran 3/28)

Buddy what if we just leave this matter to Allah? And not judge who's akeedah is complete and who's is not? There must be muslim scholars in India too right? They've people like Zakir Naik so if they've any doubts they will ask their scholars why are we worrying so much? See the matter of takfir is extremely sensitive and somewhat forbidden just a little mistake in our judgement of someone's faith or fate can land us in a lot of trouble on judgment day. So we should avoid such things at all costs. Just a humble request to you and my fellow Countrymen here.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Because you don't know Islam.



They don't have to like Pakistan, but they cannot side with India over Pakistan. At best, they can remain neutral.



We should, even if we don't (with some exceptions, e.g wrong-doers).



I do have a problem with that.

Try going backwards. First, fix the situation where an entire nation has imprisoned its own Muslim subjects and is trying to brainwash them into giving up their faith.
Second, try applying the love for other Muslims to the Muslim Indians, rather than whimpering when they rebuke you. There are almost equal numbers on either side; who gave you the right to declare that you are the ones who are rightful Muslims, and they are wrong?
Third when they see obvious sins being committed, why should they stay neutral? Is that enjoined?
Fourth, you claim to know Islam. Does that mean that those Muslim Indians do not know Islam?

 

[Corona]

Of course they will.... Muslim actions is not synonymous with Islamic beliefs.

Like I said many times before. It isn't about the Muslim individual. I am talking of Islamic foundation belief system.... According to Islamic Akeedah you cannot fight for a kafir nation against a nation of Muslims. He is not a Shaheed and he will be raised amongst the Kafir (idol worshippers) an the Day of Judgement. That is his choice CE.

“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.” (Al-i Imran 3/28)

Is it just applicable for kafir nations? Or even other Muslim nations that fight among themselves?
Also, India doesn't have an official religion. It's a secular state that hosts multiple religion. Your "kafir" tag seems to based on convenience of numbers and existing hatred.

 

[ranjeet]

Lol Pakistani insecurities at it's glory. Just because they got a country on a reilgious basis they believe that any protest against them is anti Islamic.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Like I said ... Not when there is conflict between the two. Muslims have to side with Muslims.

It's the basic foundation of Islamic principles. Those who do inturn oppress Muslims by joining kafirs are themselves outside of Islam.

Basic facts 101.

Perhaps you should think seriously about the possibility that you, Pakistani Muslims, should side with Muslim Indians.

That is not how it works. Only Allah can judge. Muslims are refrained to make that distinction.

Someone makes the shahaada and believes in the kalamah is the only requirement.

Basic Islamic principal.

Then why are so many Pakistani members on this thread being so judgemental, and telling Muslim Indians what they should or should not do? Are they Pakistani first or Muslim first? Let them decide and then and only then comment.

 

[scorpionx]

One of the truly disgusting threads (in fact probably the worst one) I had the misfortune of coming across in this forum (and I have been among plenty of muck here trust me, some of my own doing too as Joe knows only too well, as well as @Atlas ) was a thread about Indian muslims here (and extended to Bangladeshi muslims).

It contained some of the most vile stuff I wish I never read (once I started reading, I couldn't stop out of morbid disgust in a way)....especially because lot of members I respected (and still respect) were saying things that made me question if they really are the same people I knew before that. It wasn't really the abusive or filthy language (which is more like superficial surface debris tbh) but it was the undertone of the current itself ...treated as perfectly accepted fact (that really gave competition to lenin, trotsky and goebbels narrative implantation)

It is a very emotional thing I concluded, that strikes to the very narrative of formation and identity etc for themselves....it is how I reconciled (because I did think of leaving forever right then and there) and ultimately forgave those members after the shock diminished enough. But it is definitely one of the major takeaways (I had little idea on previously) for me from this forum....that now I simply will have to take into account "out there". It is rare, but it does happen.

I understand what you are saying. Are you surprised? Don't be. Because here we are dealing with a nation that still struggles to give a proper identity to itself. A country, created on the basis of religious exclusivity rarely pondered seriously how to deal with its ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities. The men leading the country were hardly capable of giving time to build up a comprehensive national ideology and quickly crumbled under the pressures of Military elites and religious majority. Result? See our East and see their west. Both are Muslim countries but not yet in the best of the best terms with Pakistan. When situation comes, religious brotherhood paves way for ethnic/linguistic schisms, religious purity turns to linguistic supremacy and ethnic dominance. It is never the other way around, brother. And this is the only reason, I greatly admire Gandhi and Nehru no matter how many blunders both have committed in their political and personal lives.

 

[Sam.]

@Nilgiri bhai when things get tough and you see @Joe Shearer sir , i have a image in my mind-

You are correct about China and the concerns with the treatment of the Uyghurs.

But we are not going to war against China and I am not out to kill Chinese Muslims.

But let's say the China attacks Pakistan... The Chinese Uyghurs would be forbidden from attacking Pakistan as per Islamic Akeedah. They cannot fight Pakistan or any other "so-called' Muslim nation by joining a Kafir nation.

The so-called Muslim nation doesn't even have to be a "good" or "practicing" Muslim... But if it's citizens profess Islam as their Deen... That makes them unlawful for Chinese Muslims to attack them .

Interesting so you mean to say all those fighting in middle east are Kaffirs ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Spoken like a true half wit.
Your father should have worn a condom. You’re a waste.

And you need to learn the ways of the world. Maybe he did.

India doesn’t have a conflict with Islam or Muslim, only Pakistanis. And India consists of approx 200 million Muslims who call it their nation. So India’s war with Pakistan is their (Indian muslims) war with Pakistan. Therein lies the problem with your argument.
It is not siding with one religion against the other, it’s siding with themselves and their interests (Indian Muslims) against another group of muslims.

I've been struggling to put this in words.

Technically speaking that is not exactly Pakistan's flag, but something that resembles to Pakistan's flag.

I know you will be shocked at what I'm about to say, but I feel it is better coming to you from a friend (your rejecting that is not my fault nor my concern).

Muslim Indians do not have Pakistani flags in store, for whatever purpose. I'm sorry to be brutal, but there you are. The truth shall set you free.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Of course they will.... Muslim actions is not synonymous with Islamic beliefs.

Like I said many times before. It isn't about the Muslim individual. I am talking of Islamic foundation belief system.... According to Islamic Akeedah you cannot fight for a kafir nation against a nation of Muslims. He is not a Shaheed and he will be raised amongst the Kafir (idol worshippers) an the Day of Judgement. That is his choice CE.

“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.” (Al-i Imran 3/28)

Good job in this thread for detailing the proper belief of Muslims regarding war.

A Muslim who joins a Kaffir army to wage war on another Muslim becomes a Kaffir according to Islamic fiqh. There are no ifs and or buts about it.

If that Muslim joins and supports a Kaffir army invading and occupying a Muslim land brutally (as Kashmir or Palestine,) he becomes a Kaffir as well.

These things take one out of Islam.

As I have detailed in another thread, the kind of 'Muslims' which BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal, and Shiv Sena promote like Dr. Abdul Kalam are actually Hindus. They are worshipers of idols and followers of Sanatan Dharma.

Worshiping any idol takes one immediately out of Islam, even to please or show respect in a misguided way. You have to renew your shahadah and promise Allah swt not to do it again.

@Nilgiri Indian Muslims have gone passed the days where they would invested their time deciding who is a true Muslim and who is not. Economic liberalization in the 90's have opened the flood gate of job and business opportunities in such extent that, every one wants to rally behind this bandwagon of socio-economic progress. Sadly for Pakistanis, the Ummah concept does not apply to Indian Muslims. How many lives we have lost in terrorism perpetrated by Indian Muslims in India and abroad? Practically negligible. We have lost more men in North East and in Maoist hit areas, rather than religion motivated terrorism.

And I just laugh at the assertions that a true believer would never fight against another true believer. Such hilarious religious bravado never faced reality throughout history. For example, when Iraq was being ravaged by a so called 'satanic' country, where was Pakistan and where it was getting it's aids from? Look at Chinese Uighur policy. Are they not true Muslims? No, absolutely not. Because proponents of such absurd religious brotherhood logic quite well understand the value of money.

Anything to defend your illegal theft and occupation of a 95% Muslim majority land. Shame on you.

We are watching how you are treating Kashmiris and shaking our heads in shame. Don't act self-righteous.

 

[Nilgiri]

I greatly admire Gandhi and Nehru

Gandhi I admire (whatever I disagree or dislike about him) because the man lived by his principles.

If leaders and politicians actually live by what they preach for others FIRST (and fully demonstrate their actual credibility)....this world would be lot better place....because every socialist for example would have to live as a true one first (rather than practice grabbing and spending other's money as a moral thing before self-morality)

Nehru waxes and wanes in my overall judgement...depending on whats happening out there (in India and the world and the topic of interest) and what I expand on him by reading etc. Too much of a politician (and economic theorist) for me compared to Gandhi though....so I definitely admire Gandhi more. Gandhi walked the walk, literally.