Indian Build Up

[EagleEyes]

JAIPUR, NOV 7 (PTI)
Asserting that India would buy the first batch of advance jet trainer (AJT) aircraft by mid 2007, Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi today said there were no plans to phase out the MiG series as these "are the safest ones".

"The Indian Air Force will get 66 AJTs by the stipulated period (June-Sep 2007), as the contract has been made in the past, and the training for pilots is on in Britain," he told a press conference after attending the NCC (Air Wing) show here.

He added that light combat aircraft would be inducted in the IAF by 2009-10.

Buying an aircraft "is not like a car purchase. It takes years to get it expedited", he said.

Reacting to a media barrage on MiG crashes, he said the air mishap figure had come down in the current year. "If such MiGs are unsafe, the IAF would not risk sending its pilots for training or routine flying exercises.

"These are the safest ones. IAF does not plan to phase them out, or dump them into the river Ganga river. We will continue exploit each MiG aircraft till last use." The mind-set that MiGs were "outdated or dangerous" needed changing, he added.

On Pakistan's plans to buy F-16 fighter aircraft, he said the US Congress was yet to give it clearance.

"To say that Pakistan's plans to acquire F-16s wo'nt affect us is wrong, but India is tough enough to face any challenge," the air chief said adding that Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf had revised the F-16 plans and "could reduce the numbers" in the wake of the Oct 8 quake.

Tyagi dismissed a question on IAF pilots migrating to commercial airlines as "mere media hype". Private airlines di provide better pay packets but there was "no stress migration from the air force", he said. Addressing the NCC, the air chief said "I am present here as a former cadet and want the NCC to make every cadet the best Indian citizen".

Sixteen Agra-based NCC (Air Wing) cadets led by Sq Leader Deepak Sharma earlier gave a sky-diving show from 8,000 ft over the military ground here in the presence of the Air Chief Marshal who hails from Rajasthan.

 

[miroslav]

Challenge for Pakistan Air Force

AIR MARSHAL (RETD) Ex-PAF AYAZ AHMED KHAN

On March 25, 2005, the Bush Administration accorded its approval to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan "in a major policy shift rewarding a key ally in the war on terrorism, and angering neighbouring India". A senior Bush administration official said that initial estimates called for the sale of 24 F-16s to Pakistan. But the State Department said that Washington has set no fixed limits on how many F-16 aircraft Islamabad can buy. White House spokesman said "the F-16 jets are vital to Pakistan's security as President Musharraf takes numerous risks prosecuting the war on terror".

This is good news for the Pakistan Air Force, which since October 1989 had been denied access to advanced aircraft and weapons from the US, while the Indian Air Force has procured advanced aircraft, BVR missiles, precision guided weapons, and AWACs from Russia, France, Israel and UK. During 90s the balance of air power was already four to one in India's favour. The euphoria about new F-16s for the PAF has evaporated, since Washington has announced supply of very large numbers of F-16 Falcons and F-18 Super Hornets to the Indian Air Force. The air power imbalance will tilt further in favour of India.


Washington has moved fast to placate India, which is considered a bulwark for the furtherance of US strategic and economic interests in the region. On April 21, 2005, a high level US defence team led by Lt General Jeffry B Kohler held extensive discussions with the top Indian Air Force officials and submitted detailed technical parameters of the two fighters jets that the US has offered to India. The offer includes F-16 Fighting Falcons manufactured by Lockheed Martin, and twin-engined F-18 Super Hornets being manufactured by The Boeing Aircraft Company.
After a round of meetings, the Request for Information (RFI), was provided by Lt General Kohler - Director US Defence Security Cooperation Agency to senior IAF officials. Kohler said that the two US Companies would bid for Indian fighter aircraft requirements. These US aircraft manufacturers would be offering the latest versions of their fighters to India. Both the companies have plans to bring their fighters to India for trails, and would give detailed presentations to IAF officials." Lockheed Martin had already offered 140 F16 fighters to India. Twenty two off the shelf, while 118 designed and manufactured as per IAF requirements, to be assembled by HAL at Bangalore.

India has already asked for bids for the procurement of fourth generation fighters from Dassault of France, Swedish Grippen, and Russian aircraft manufacturers. Bids have already been received form these companies. The Americans are the last of the four countries to send their bids for the expected large scale fighter procurement programme of the Indian Air Force.

A US official said that India is contemplating a "very large purchase of fighters", including US built F-16s and F-18s. Jet fighter aircraft are expensive, and India would be spending billions of dollars to purchase fighter jets for offensive action and defence against assumed enemies. With over 2000 aircraft, which include 800 combat aircraft, Indian Air Force is the fourth largest in the world. India is not faced with any external threat.

Except self made disputes, like the unsolved Kashmir problem, forcible occupation of Siachen Glacier, Sir Creek, and building of dams and barrages in Kashmir in contravention of the Pakistan India water accord. These very serious irritants in the normalisation of relations could be solved if India so willed. These are the pretext for anti-Pakistan propaganda and for the massive build-up of forces, to threaten and intimidate Pakistan.

Both Pakistani and India have declared that the peace process is irreversible. But Indian military capabilities especially deployment of 600,000 regular troops in Jammu and Kashmir, past history of wars against Pakistan, recent deployment of entire Indian Armed Forces against Pakistan, Pakistan specific military exercises, and hysteric build-up of the Indian Air Force fully expose belligerent Indian intentions towards Pakistan.

The recently revealed Indian "Cold Start Doctrine", which aims at capturing Pakistan's strategic assets through rapid deployment of Indian combatant forces, reveals the mindset of Indian strategic policy planners. Indian plan is to surprise Pakistani armed forces, by capturing Pakistani strategic assets, "before the country reacts to any war alarms." Indian Air force will be a key player in any such pre-emptive action. Recently India raised a new Command, called 'The South West Command', to be deployed to threaten southern Pakistan especially Sind. Pakistan Army, the PAF and Pakistan Navy must review and rationalise their operational strategy to defeat Indian pre-emptive attack plans.

For Pakistan Indian plans to build dams and barrages in Indian Held Kashmir is a conspiracy to steal Pakistan's water and throttle its jugular vein. Pakistanis are emotional about Indian plans to control Pakistan's water resources. The water dispute is as serious as the Kashmir dispute, and could lead to the fourth war between Pakistan and India. Jammu and Kashmir is a flashpoint because both the countries are nuclear states, and have powerful conventional forces.

Pakistan is seriously threatened by the imbalance between the IAF and the PAF. Indian air power build-up, especially enhancement of its offensive air power potential, is a challenge for the Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan can ill-afford to ignore the strike and intercept capabilities of the IAF, especially of its 190 Sukhoi (Su-30k) and 50 Mirage 2000-H multirole aircraft. The force multiplier impact of 190 Flankers, 50 Mirages and about 300 F-16 Falcons and F-18 Super Hornets, the Indian Air Force could outgun the PAF in the war for air superiority. The smaller PAF will find it difficult to clear the skies over the FDLs. Armour advances of Pakistan army could be halted in their tracks by IAF's BVR weapons. Pakistan therefore has no option, but to build a strong air force, which is not inferior to the Indian Air Force, in quality and quantity.

Despite calls for "irreversible peace," India is arming itself for possible showdown with Pakistan. China or Bangladesh are also categorised as enemy countries by Indian military strategists and politicians. Former Defence Minister George Fernandes had repeatedly declared that," China is the enemy country". Indian military is already huge, and beefing it up to settle scores with Pakistan only does not make sense.

Indian policy planners are conscious of China's military capabilities, especially that of the Peoples Liberation Army (PLA) Air force. Indian Air Force will have 190 Su-30 MK Flankers soon. But the PLA Air Force will have 400 Flanker jets; twice as many as the IAF. PLAAF's fighter arsenal comprises 78 Su-27Sk and 76 Su-30 MKK purchased from Russia. Recently PLA Air Force has received 24 advanced Sukhoi Su-30MK2 Flanker fighters.

These are naval versions of Sukhoi Su-30 MKK fighter. China is building another 200 Flankers under licence from Sukhoi. PLA's 400 Flankers constitute an formidable force for offensive operations, and for the air defence of China. According to Richard Fischer a top US defence analyst PLA's latest Flanker fighters can beat US jet fighters including the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Falcon in air combat.
The Chinese Su-30 MKK, and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MK Flankers can outgun and outrun the best USAF fighters. He reports that F-15 fighters of the United States Air Force, performed badly during air combat training engagements in Alaska with the Indian Air Force Su-30 MK's. That the F-15s equipped with latest long range high definition radars, are inferior to the Flankers is disturbing for the Pentagon and the USAF. During air combat exercises IAF's Su 30 MKs and F-15 pilots saw each other at the same time with their radars, but the Indian fighter pilots invariably got the first shot with their AA-10 Alamo air to air missiles. They won all long range (BVR) air combats.

According to Richard Fisher, who is an expert on Chinese military," PLA Chinese Flanker fighters can beat the top US jet fighters including the F-15 Eagle. In 1992 Russian Sukhoi Su-27s (earlier Flankers) arrived at US Langley Air Force base to perform. Their performance and pilot handling was impressive. Since 1992 Pentagon has known that in a close-in dog fight the Su-27 and now Mk-30s would smear the F-15 Eagle. The USAF-Indian Air Force exercises have brought home the lesson that Russian radars, BVR systems and weapons and tactics have reached a high level, in which the F-15 Eagle is being outclassed in long range engagements".

Here is a lesson for the PAF. The future air combat with the IAF Su 30 MK Flankers will be long range engagements with BVR weapons. The gap is quality, quantity and advanced weaponry must be bridged immediately to ensure that PAF fighter pilots are not at a disadvantage in a future air war.

http://nation.com.pk/daily/may-2005/4/columns5.php

Miro

 

[Thunder]

The thing is that if there is a war with india in the future. PAF will be the last force that will go out and attack. We have a better army then india( tanks, etc wise) we have cruise missiles and ballistic missiles to take care indian navy and strategic targets.

Our airforce training and morale might be better then the indians but they clearly have the tech and numbers advanagte over us.

 

[Kaiser]

Miro for the last time pls stop posting propaganda made indian articles....India only has 50 SU30 mk in which 15 are MKI...India's air power is not a huge threat to us because our mirages and f-7's alone can take out all there migs(ecept mig-29) which take up more than 60% of there airforce...then our f-16's and future jf-17's can elimanate every thing else in India's inventory including SU-30'S cause of there small numbers.

 

[A.Rahman]

our mirages and f-7's alone can take out all there migs(ecept mig-29)

F-7's taking out Migs ? is it possible ? can it take out mig-25?

 

[EagleEyes]

Our F-7s have better condition/airframe than their Mig-21s, if there was a fight between F-7 and Mig-21. Even actually F-7 is known to be better than Mig-21, it still lacks BVR. Not just that India has upgraded its Mig-21s to BISON standard which have the capability to fire BVR missiles up to 45KM~?

F-7 can't take Mig-25 if it has a short mission, Mig-25 is much faster and can go more feet above than a F-16. The Mig-25 is sometimes said to be similar to. F-14 Tomcat, F-15 Eagle and MiG-31 Foxhound.

Mig-25 often do reconnaissance missions and sometimes they act as interceptors, but most of the time, they have made reconnaissance missions because by it they only have chance to return to the IAF base.

Originally posted by A.Rahman@Nov 9 2005, 01:17 AM
F-7's taking out Migs ? is it possible ? can it take out mig-25? 

[post=2546]Quoted post[/post]​

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Kaiser@Nov 9 2005, 03:56 AM
Miro for the last time pls stop posting propaganda made indian articles....India only has 50 SU30 mk in which 15 are MKI...India's air power is not a huge threat to us because our mirages and f-7's alone can take out all there migs(ecept mig-29) which take up more than 60% of there airforce...then our f-16's and future jf-17's can elimanate every thing else in India's inventory including SU-30'S cause of there small numbers.

[post=2539]Quoted post[/post]​

MoD's Please make a note of this.

Dear Kaiser,

The article is written by a retired Air Marshal of PAF.

# 1 IAF has 42 MKI's as of today and projected number is 190 with annual production of 14 MKI's at Ozhar.

# F-7 Alone can't take even the Mirages and MiG-21 Bis/Bison series.
Besides what is the F-7 number in PAF? They are going to destroy the whole IAF?

# 3 Your F-16 are only 28 (32-1-3).

1 was fired by another PAF F-16 and other 3 are equipped with nuke(s) for the worst, so they won't be taking part any air war unless Pakistan Government decides to for a judgement day.

Also even if PAF has 100 F-16's they will be countered by MiG-29/Su-30 and the 126 MRCA's.

# 4 and very important.

a.The Air Marshall has more knowledge than you.
b.His knowledge and love towards his nation can't be questioned or insulted by saying that the article is an Indian Propaganda Article.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by A.Rahman@Nov 9 2005, 06:17 AM
F-7's taking out Migs ? is it possible ? can it take out mig-25? 

[post=2546]Quoted post[/post]​

It can't.

besides I doubt if IAF MiG-25's will be doing any Dogfights.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by miroslav@Nov 10 2005, 05:55 PM
MoD's Please make a note of this.

Dear Kaiser,

The article is written by a retired Air Marshal of PAF.

# 1 IAF has 42 MKI's as of today and projected number is 190 with annual production of 14 MKI's at Ozhar.

# F-7 Alone can't take even the Mirages and MiG-21 Bis/Bison series.
Besides what is the F-7 number in PAF? They are going to destroy the whole IAF?

# 3 Your F-16 are only 28 (32-1-3).

1 was fired by another PAF F-16 and other 3 are equipped with nuke(s) for the worst, so they won't be taking part any air war unless Pakistan Government decides to for a judgement day.

Also even if PAF has 100 F-16's they will be countered by MiG-29/Su-30 and the 126 MRCA's.

# 4 and very important.

a.The Air Marshall has more knowledge than you.
b.His knowledge and love towards his nation can't be questioned or insulted by saying that the article is an Indian Propaganda Article.

Thanks,

Miro

[post=2639]Quoted post[/post]​

Miro I clearly said "our mirages and f-7's alone can take out all there migs(ecept mig-29) which take up more than 60% of there airforce".I didnt just say f-7 I also said "MIRAGES" .The total number of Mirages and f-7's are around 250 while your migs (excluding mig-29) is around 450..You must also not foget that numeral superiority sometimes does not matter.Our goal for the f-16's is to have 110+ of them and 150-200 jf-17's which can counter your mirages and sukhois..I also hear that we are either going for the Gripen or Upgraded J-10.Miro can you pls give me specificatons on your mig-21 upgrade and its BVR capabilities.

 

[abhishek]

in a report published by some pakistan pro person he has accused that these 67 jet trainers can be converted into fighting machines with in short period of time.is it true? I do not think so?
Abhi

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Kaiser@Nov 10 2005, 11:39 PM
The total number of Mirages and f-7's are around 250

[post=2643]Quoted post[/post]​

I am scared.

Mirage III/V airframes are quite old and fatigued even they are upgraded to Rose standards.

while your migs (excluding mig-29) is around 450..

Sir we have just scrapped down 9 squadrons.

Besides what makes you think that every MiG (except MiG-29) is gonna take on F-7 and Mirages?

You know the IAF MiG varients and their roles???

MiG-21

M/MF; Multi-role version with one R-11-300 turbojet with 13,688 lbs. of thrust. Has 4 pylons which can carry external fuel tanks, air-to-air missiles or twin barrel guns. Has a zero speed, zero altitude ejection seat. The MF variant has a R-11F2S-300 turbojet, otherwise similar to the 'M' variant.

Bis; Advanced variant with further improved avionics indicated by the ILS antennae under the nose and on the fin tip.

Bis are getting upgraded to Bison standrads so run even before you can walk.

Bison; Most advanced variant with further improved avionics incl MFDs, HOTAS, RWRs and BVR Capability.

U/UM/US-Mongol; Two seat trainer version with cockpits arranged in tandem, larger main wheels, one piece forward air brake and pilot boom repositioned above intake. Has no cannon armament. Has a broader-chord vertical tail surfaces and a under brake parachute housing, with a deeper dorsal spine and no dorsal fin fillet. One R-13 turbojet and 4 under-wing store pylons.

Yucks.


MiG-23

MF; The air defence variant fitted with a R-29 jet engine, a J-Band radar, a Sirena-3 RWR system, Doppler navigation and a small IRST sensor pod under the cockpit. First Russian combat aircraft, which has the ability to track and engage targets flying below its own altitude.

BN; The ground attack version with a laser rangefinder in the nose, a raised seat, cockpit external armour plate and large low pressure tires. On the bottom of each side of the fuselage a RWR system has been added.

UM; Tandem two seater suitable for both operational training and combat use with individual canopy over each seat. The rear seat is slightly higher than forward seat, with a retractable periscope sight for the occupant.

So the MiG-23 BN/UM are not gonna play air offensive/defensive.

MiG-27

ML; Single-seat, variable geometry, fighter ground attack.

They are 165 in numbers and none of them is gonna play air games with PAF. They are specially for Bombings.

So your doubt about 450 crafts is clear.

Besides neither PAF nor IAF is gonna use their each and every plane.

You must also not foget that numeral superiority sometimes does not matter.

Same to you when you say 250 F-7 and Mirage-III/V

Our goal for the f-16's is to have 110+ of them and 150-200 jf-17's which can counter your mirages and sukhois..

By 2015 you will achieve that and towards your east you will find 190 Flankers and 126 MRCA's and probably something new on the board.

I also hear that we are either going for the Gripen or Upgraded J-10.

Please. Unless anybody is donating it to you.

Miro can you pls give me specificatons on your mig-21 upgrade and its BVR capabilities.  

Why not?

But I am sure thats gonna spoil your tea reading.

The MiG-21 forms 16 operational squadrons, in a number of variants, and is the ageing backbone of the Indian Air Force. 125 MiG-21bis are selected to be upgraded by MiG-MAPO and HAL. Reportedly another 50 aircraft will be upgraded, after the 125 initial order. The first two aircraft were upgraded in Russia, with the first test flight occurring in October 1998 and trials of the medium-range R-73RDM2 and the long-range R-77RVV-AE air-to-air missiles being conducted in February 1999. These two aircraft have returned to India and as of July 2001, four aircraft have been upgraded adding to the first two. Test flights began in June 2001, while HAL has confirmed that modernisation is taking place. All aircraft will be upgraded locally at HAL and will be completed by 2004. The aircraft will be designated by the IAF as the MiG-21 Bison.

The upgrade consists of Phazotron NIIR's Kopyo multimode, X-band pulse Doppler radar, new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot, radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid air cooling system, HOTAS controls, a SURA helmet mounted sight, stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[EagleEyes]

Originally posted by abhishek@Nov 11 2005, 12:45 AM
in a report published by some pakistan pro person he has accused that these 67 jet trainers can be converted into fighting machines with in short period of time.is it true? I do not think so?
Abhi

[post=2662]Quoted post[/post]​

What training aircraft are you talking about?

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Ahsan F@Nov 20 2005, 04:02 AM
What training aircraft are you talking about?

[post=3224]Quoted post[/post]​

HAWKS.

IAF will receive the first batch of HAWKS in March-2007.

Also HAWKS can be converted into the fighting machines.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[EagleEyes]

Originally posted by miroslav@Nov 20 2005, 11:13 AM
HAWKS.

IAF will receive the first batch of HAWKS in March-2007.

Also HAWKS can be converted into the fighting machines.

Thanks,

Miro

[post=3271]Quoted post[/post]​

What can they carry? Can they carry air to air missiles including ground ammunition?

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by WebMaster@Nov 21 2005, 02:37 AM
What can they carry? Can they carry air to air missiles including ground ammunition? 

[post=3287]Quoted post[/post]​

You can see the HAWK specs here.

HAWK Specs

IAF is gonna get 24 HAWKS from England and rest will be made by HAL under TOT.

So the IAF armaments are not decided yet.

Thanks,

Miro