Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[gowthamraj]

does anybody have updates on MCA project

 

[gogbot]

does anybody have updates on MCA project

Its in the design phase with consultation from the air force on finalising the specifications.

Also its no longer called the MCA.

The project has been renamed the
Next.Generation.Fighter.Aircraft : NGFA

Developing the Nations, Next Generation Fighter Aircraft

Recently when Requirements of MCA now re-named to NGFA (Next Generation Fighter Aircraft) by Indian Air force was made public in section of media , IAF clear dedicates what it wants for NGFA and seems to leave very little room for developers ADE and other DRDO labs . IAF seems will not compromise on the aircrafts capabilities from the start.

For years NGFA was rumored to be a strike aircraft with secondary role of Air defence capabilities. Now IAF wants a fully multirole Aircraft with almost all the technology which only a 5TH Generation Aircraft like Pak-Fa which India is partnered with Russia for its development will have ,India’s contribution to Pak-Fa is limited to sub-system of it avionics and its core software very similar work which was done with Sukhoi-Su30 MKI. Other then Avionics which can be further developed from Tejas MK-II platform they are tones of other things which NGFA will need to make it truly a 5TH Generation Aircraft .

IAF seems to be clear that it wants most of the Avionics and Engine for NGFA to be indigenous, Specially the AESA Radar; it seems IAF will not settle for AESA which has been developed by LRDE for Tejas Mk-II, it want to be more sophisticated then the Current AESA technology what LDRE is working on and better Avionics and Self-defence systems for the aircraft which will take lot of time unless similar Pak-Fa Avionics package is chosen.

The Kaveri-Snecma Engine based on core of M-88 has been seen has the possible engine which will power NGFA, Details of this engine is still not clear and what level of Technology French will bring is also crucial, GTRE failed to develop current Kaveri engine in time to power Tejas Combat aircraft .The new engine should be based on consultation with IAF to avoid future disappointments and should be ready in time to power NGFA which will have a tech demonstrator, three prototype vehicles and two production jets . No intermediate Engine has been sought, Kaveri-II have to be ready in time for NGFA to make its first flight.

Stealthy Airframe Requirements seems to have thrown out any DRDO’s plans of having Aircraft with low Stealth characters, it wants Stealthy Airframe from the start and Current level of technology in India does not have such high end materials, composites and radar observing airframe materials and paints. Wind-tunnel model which was displayed at Aero India 2009 of MCA will need designs changes to meet IAF’s demand of full Stealthy Airframe, while wind tunnel model seemed like Aircraft with Stealth features but not fully stealth aircraft.

Time frame set by ADA is again over ambitious. ADA plans to have the first test flight of the NGFA by 7-8 years, once go head is given which may come by end of 2010, this is simply not possible since most of the technology required for it is still not in pipeline, since various Labs will be working on it any delays by any Lab will effect the schedule flight plan and again it will look similar way which LCA was made to go.

Consultancy and joint development of various systems should be considered to meet the deadline for NGFA’s first flight; Aircraft should be developed with possible export market in mind. To give air forces around the world a cheap and high technology 5TH Generation fighter which can compete with American and Chinese aircrafts in future.

All in all the entire project is nearly a decade away from visible progress.

And due to lessons learned from LCA . They will be tight lipped about releasing any deadline and keeping up with it using update.

When it is done we will know simple as that.

We have seen example of this in the LCH , the amount of Info about the status of the project deceased over time.
Being tight lipped till the test flight

 

[Spitfighter]

Its in the design phase with consultation from the air force on finalising the specifications.

Also its no longer called the MCA.

The project has been renamed the
Next.Generation.Fighter.Aircraft : NGFA



All in all the entire project is nearly a decade away from visible progress.

And due to lessons learned from LCA . They will be tight lipped about releasing any deadline and keeping up with it using update.

When it is done we will know simple as that.

We have seen example of this in the LCH , the amount of Info about the status of the project deceased over time.
Being tight lipped till the test flight

I don't understand why we emphasize on technology so much. Insisting on fifth generation technologies when the country is yet to master 4th generation tech. is going to set us up for a disaster.

We're already involved in a high tech joint venture with the Russians for a fifth generation plane, so why not focus on improving the LCA and only the LCA to the point where it becomes comparable to the current SU-30MKI and mass produce it in large numbers so we can have a large fleet of relatively advanced fighter jets? We don't have to worry about countering stealth aircraft at the moment, and by the time we do we'd have our own.

We can't rely on technological superiority alone, we need numbers, especially when we're faced with the (albeit distant) prospect of a two front war, with the world's largest and 7th largest force. Isn't that what we're planning for in any case?

I especially don't understand how the air force let its numbers slip to such a degree. The worst part is the complete lack of urgency to buy and replace old aircraft. They've taken 5 years to decide which aircraft to buy! Is it me, or does it seem like India's defense planning is a complete mess?

 

[Mauryan]

does anybody have updates on MCA project

AFAIK,TD known to be flown by 2013-2015 timeframe.But I am more inclined with the year 2013 after looking at the pace of developments. Initially TD and prototypes will be flying with the JV engine, while Kaveri-NG has to endup on the production variants.

GTRE received a great flack in this regard.No matter what, they have to bringup Kaveri-NG by 2018.

3 designs were on the table,while IAF is looking at the conventional one without letting any room for risk taking ones.

 

[gogbot]

I don't understand why we emphasize on technology so much. Insisting on fifth generation technologies when the country is yet to master 4th generation tech. is going to set us up for a disaster.

We're already involved in a high tech joint venture with the Russians for a fifth generation plane, so why not focus on improving the LCA and only the LCA to the point where it becomes comparable to the current SU-30MKI and mass produce it in large numbers so we can have a large fleet of relatively advanced fighter jets? We don't have to worry about countering stealth aircraft at the moment, and by the time we do we'd have our own.

We have the technology for 4th gen fighter, the problem is our implementation of it.

Consider this the only major hurdle still remaining for the LCA is the Engine.

how can this be when we make our own rocket and Cryogenic engines .

we have tested ramjets, Scam jets.
but can't make operational an After burning turbofan engine.

There is a advanced level of technology in India, but for one reason of the other , gains have not been consolidated into a cohesive package on the defence front .

Defence is all bot technology, if we want to stay competitive we have to invest heavily in R&D. just look at how difficult it is just to catch up to established players.

IF we lost focus now we would jepordise decades of work .

We need quantity yes ,and continual improvement but they have to done in concert with advancement.

Would want to be serious players we need to world leaders in technology development.

When we have that it is far easier to capitalise our gains.

We can't rely on technological superiority alone, we need numbers, especially when we're faced with the (albeit distant) prospect of a two front war, with the world's largest and 7th largest force. Isn't that what we're planning for in any case?

Technological superiority is key,
a quantitative advantage is not as effective in modern combat.

Why did the British rule half the world ?

Why is the US the undisputed superpower in the world ?

Technological superiority

I especially don't understand how the air force let its numbers slip to such a degree. The worst part is the complete lack of urgency to buy and replace old aircraft. They've taken 5 years to decide which aircraft to buy! Is it me, or does it seem like India's defense planning is a complete mess?

Internal politics and delays.

LCA and MMRCA both suffered from delays.

Also lets not forget India's had serious economic problems in the early 90's . when our growth had just started

The Depreciation of the Mig-21 fleet cant be helped.

Two replacements are on the way to plug the gaps.

 

[gogbot]

AFAIK,TD known to be flown by 2013-2015 timeframe.

what's AFAIK

3 designs were on the table,while IAF is looking at the conventional one without letting any room for risk taking ones.

Can we get a peek

 

[destiny]

We have the technology for 4th gen fighter, the problem is our implementation of it.

Consider this the only major hurdle still remaining for the LCA is the Engine.

how can this be when we make our own rocket and Cryogenic engines .

we have tested ramjets, Scam jets.
but can't make operational an After burning turbofan engine.

There is a advanced level of technology in India, but for one reason of the other , gains have not been consolidated into a cohesive package on the defence front .

Defence is all bot technology, if we want to stay competitive we have to invest heavily in R&D. just look at how difficult it is just to catch up to established players.

IF we lost focus now we would jepordise decades of work .

We need quantity yes ,and continual improvement but they have to done in concert with advancement.

Would want to be serious players we need to world leaders in technology development.

When we have that it is far easier to capitalise our gains.

gogobot the thing is that there is little cooperation between different agencies here mostly due to petty political reasons. No one wants to share their credit with others. They just want to have complete control over their offices ( which they think as their little empires).

This is also the reason for the CRPF operation. They could have used the experience of Army officers from J&K, NE but they didn't.

Hope you got my point.

 

[gogbot]

gogobot the thing is that there is little cooperation between different agencies here mostly due to petty political reasons. No one wants to share their credit with others. They just want to have complete control over their offices ( which they think as their little empires).

This is also the reason for the CRPF operation. They could have used the experience of Army officers from J&K, NE but they didn't.

Hope you got my point.

Well i know there is a huge amount of internal politics , and many other issues.

But my point was its unfair to say we don't have the technology.

Its there in India., its just very cohesive in putting it together

 

[sudhir007]

IAF to Revamp Pilot Training | India Defence Online

The training programme for pilots in the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been stalled since its basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a crash that killed two pilots in July last year. The major flaws included the engine, which shuts down due to the absence of fuel flow during aerial manoeuvring, as well as other aircraft design issues.

However, the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which manufactures the HPT-32 Deepak, has been directed to fit a number of trainer aircraft with a Ballistic Recovery System (BRS).The proposition is that each HPT-32 Deepak aircraft should have an enormous parachute that opens when the engine shuts off and enables the aircraft to slowly come down with the crew still in their seats.

As for the Indian Defence Ministry, a fast-track purchase of 75 aircraft from the international market has been approved to replace the “Stage-1″ Deepak, but the aircraft will only come through by 2013-14 to the IAF.

As per the hierarchy of the training exercises that the IAF carried out till last year, a trainee pilot would get eighty hours of basic training on the HPT-32 Deepak aircraft before selected pilots graduated to the second stage of fighter pilot training on the Kiran Mark-1 aircraft. The third and final stage of training was on the Kiran Mark-2 aircraft.

However, due to the lack of the first stage trainer aircraft, the IAF is conducting basic training on a jet aircraft which is the Kiran Mark-1 aircraft. Although there is a risk entailed in conducting basic training on a jet-engined aircraft like the Kiran Mark-1 aircraft, the IAF has little choice since it needs fighter pilots to graduate and fly the aircraft it possesses.

As for HAL, it is also developing an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) called the ‘Sitara’ to replace the Kiran Mark-1 used in the second stage of the IAF training. The IAF has ordered a limited series production of 12 aircraft. However, these will also take some time before they are supplied to the IAF. As for the third stage of IAF training, the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) is slowly replacing the Kiran Mark-2 aircraft.

 

[sancho]

I don't understand why we emphasize on technology so much. Insisting on fifth generation technologies when the country is yet to master 4th generation tech. is going to set us up for a disaster.

We're already involved in a high tech joint venture with the Russians for a fifth generation plane, so why not focus on improving the LCA and only the LCA to the point where it becomes comparable to the current SU-30MKI and mass produce it in large numbers so we can have a large fleet of relatively advanced fighter jets? We don't have to worry about countering stealth aircraft at the moment, and by the time we do we'd have our own.

We can't rely on technological superiority alone, we need numbers, especially when we're faced with the (albeit distant) prospect of a two front war, with the world's largest and 7th largest force. Isn't that what we're planning for in any case?

I especially don't understand how the air force let its numbers slip to such a degree. The worst part is the complete lack of urgency to buy and replace old aircraft. They've taken 5 years to decide which aircraft to buy! Is it me, or does it seem like India's defense planning is a complete mess?

I agree with you on insisting on techs, especially when it comes to indigenous developments. Imo, LCA still needs a lot of work till it will be operational and useful for our defense, but it also has a lot of potential to improve. But if you see some reports, or go through forums, you can get the feeling that we already would use it in IAF and that's why we should move on with the next development, which maybe is more prestigious.
I also agree that it is a big problem that our squad numbers are shrinking so much, but I don't think MoD/IAF doing this without a plan!

See, if they wanted fast replacement and not these reduced numbers, they simply could have gone with Mirage 2009 under licence. Cheap, cost-effective and leathal at the moment, but not for those 2-3 decades these fighters will stay in service!
Same would have been the problem with more Mig 29 SMTs, but MMRCA, which already integrated 4+ techs, like AESA radar, latest avionics and so on, will give IAF fighters that will be leathal for a longer timeframe. We might lose in numbers now because of this change in the procurement, but it will pay out in the longer term.

Also, it's not like they just sit and watch the numbers are going down and hoping that HAL can produce faster. They also ordered fighters directly from Russia, which will double the inductions and that will ballance the numbers again.

Technological superiority is key,
a quantitative advantage is not as effective in modern combat.

Why did the British rule half the world ?

Why is the US the undisputed superpower in the world ?

Technological superiority

But one could also argue that the Russian and Chinese proved the other side too, although Russian tanks was inferior to German tanks in WW2 in 1 on 1, the sheer number of them was too much for the few superior, but costly Tigers.
Imo we have to focus on both, quality and quantity, especially in IAF!
I don't consider PAF as a real threat for India, because they are inferior in quality and quantity to IAF and mainly will be needed as a defense force. PLAAF instead is and moreover will be a whole different league! Most of their present fleet of course remains with older fighters just as ours, but they are modernising highly too and in a combo with J10 and J11, even the numbers of older fighters will be a big problem too.
A 2 front war is the worst thing that can happen for India and can't be won without foreign help, no matter what some military officials say. Although the manpower might be there, the overwhelming number of fighters, missiles and tanks will be the overkill.
I doubt that we can counter PLAAF in numbers anytime, but in quality we already can compete and will push the level even upwards, which will be enough to defend ourself.

 

[HAWK73]

Once US offered India for F-16 that was during Musharraf`s period. I don`t know why India didn`t shown any interest into this Jet-Fighter or what was the reason?

 

[ironman]

'Upgrade Mirages Rather Than Buying New Aircraft'​

Gandhinagar | Apr 07, 2010

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik today said that upgrading old Mirage fighter aircraft is a better option than buying new fighter planes.

When asked why Air Force was spending millions of dollars in upgrading old Mirages as the money could well be used in buying new Sukhois, Naik said, "When you buy an (fighter) aircraft it is not only the aircraft that you buy, you spend money in training people, erecting infrastructure, logistics, spares supply and life time support."

"The residual life of the 50 odd Mirages that are left is another 20 years. If I throw them away I have wasted 20 years of that residual life. But upgrading them, with the infrastructure already available, seems a better option, considering the life time cost," he added.

Talking about the Air Force's long-term perspective planning, Naik said, "Wherever there is residual useful life left, in any system not only aircraft, we try and upgrade. So that at least part of that residual life is used. But wherever there is no residual life left we try and replace."

He further said that when you upgrade an aircraft the cost is higher than 50 per cent of the original cost.

When asked about the role of Air Force in coastal security, the Air Chief Marshall said the Indian Navy has acquired crucial assets for the same purpose.

"For coastal security, fighter aircraft are not required. For that you require slow moving aircraft which can have cameras and other sensors," Naik said.

"As far as Air Force is concerned there is one great asset we can use for coastal security and that is the UAVs (Unmanned Ariel Vehicles). They are already being used in areas like Haraminala," he added.

"With more UAVs we can use them more often. They can remain airborne for longtime. They do not have to come back and give the information. Whatever they see, hear or locate is transmitted simultaneously . Hence these become important assets in coastal areas," Naik added.

He said IAF they had used UAVs in the naxal affected areas 3-4 years ago. "We have used these in Raipur and Jagdalpur. But the problem in these areas is that they are covered by jungles. So, as far as visual clues are concerned, we can't get there as there is a thick forest cover."

"However one can get some clues using Infra Red lights or detect some metals. Also, naxals are very fleeting targets, so locating them under the jungle cover is very difficult. But in open areas we can definitely use UAVs more," he added.

Talking about situation at Indo-China border, Naik said, "There are border problems. Such problems cannot be solved so fast. How to proceed is the matter for the government to decide. We are just the military and have to ensure that the border is secure."

Naik said that Air Force was taking steps to build infrastructure along the border and there was a concerted effort in that direction.

"We are purchasing new aircrafts not keeping China or some other country in mind. It is a question of capability built up in the east which was long over due. It should have been done 10 years ago but we didn't have the money at that time. But now we have the money as the government has sanctioned certain projects which are moving on fast track," he said.

"But for us, fast track is also 3-5 years because the areas are also very difficult. No contractor is ready to go there. The weather and altitude are adverse. There are not enough roads and the working season is just 3-4 months in an year," Naik added.

The Air Chief Marshal further said that new bases are being thought of and the old bases are being strengthened to accept new aircraft.

About the trials of new aircraft being purchased, Naik said by the end of April they will be completing all the trials.

"Trials of two aircraft are still left, by end of April we will be completing all the trials after that about 2-3 months to complete the report and then we will be submitting it to the government," he added.

news.outlookindia.com | 'Upgrade Mirages Rather Than Buying New Aircraft'

 

[ironman]

Indian air force orders Harop loitering munitions​

By Arie Egozi

The Indian air force is to purchase Israel Aerospace Industries' Harop loitering munition system, with deliveries next year.

Suitable for launch from a variety of platforms, the long-endurance Harop has tactical unmanned air vehicle-type capabilities, including an electro-optical/infrared seeker providing 360° coverage. The aircraft can search for, detect and attack high-value mobile, time-critical and moving targets at land or sea, and with pinpoint accuracy from long range, IAI says.

Each Harop system comprises transportable launchers and a mission control shelter that provides a man-in-the-loop function to approve engagements or abort attacks in real time to avoid collateral damage. The system can be used across a range of scenarios, from low- to high-intensity conflicts, urban warfare and counter-terror operations.

After launch, a Harop air vehicle navigates towards a target area and loiters while searching for targets. If an attack mission is aborted, the UAV can be returned to loitering mode before making a new strike. Another Harop can be used to deliver real-time video to support battle damage assessment tasks.

IAI's success builds on its previous sale of Harpy attack drones to India several years ago, and follows a German army order for the Harop system signed last year with the company and Rheinmetall Defence.

Indian air force orders Harop loitering munitions

 

[Mauryan]

No offense intended.

I don't understand why we emphasize on technology so much.{Because the technology under the sleeve will create wonders when we cant match up with numbers.}
Insisting on fifth generation technologies when the country is yet to master 4th generation tech. is going to set us up for a disaster.{You completely got its wrong.Its not yet to,but its after.period LCA-MKI development is over.Even people are getting carried away with that.MKII a 4.5 gen fighter along side a 5th gen fighter are being worked upon.}
We're already involved in a high tech joint venture with the Russians for a fifth generation plane, so why not focus on improving the LCA and only the LCA to the point where it becomes comparable to the current SU-30MKI and mass produce it in large numbers so we can have a large fleet of relatively advanced fighter jets? We don't have to worry about countering stealth aircraft at the moment, and by the time we do we'd have our own.
{You are absolutely right here.And it is what undergoing down there.LCA-MKI radar integration is completed and only few weapon trials and flight testing left for IOC.LCA-MKII development progressed so well,except engine issue.AESA radar wont be a program,cause it can be swapped any time since its been under development along side.Its getting IRST,sophisticiated EW systems,supercruising engine ,every thing that are comparable or exceeding the technologies that are on offer.MKII will certainly be produced in numbers(~160).The advantage of proceeding with AMCA is that it can utilize the time and development spent on PAKFA since MCA design was already frozen.}

We can't rely on technological superiority alone, we need numbers, especially when we're faced with the (albeit distant) prospect of a two front war, with the world's largest and 7th largest force. Isn't that what we're planning for in any case?
{Agreed again.but we all know that in a 2.5 front war,we cant match one on one.If its just PAK our numbers are enough.But if its china ,then technological superiority over the adversary adds weight.INDO-China conflight?areal war is more likely.Its better to bring up as much stealth as possible.On the most conservative estimates MCA is going to be inducted starting 2020 with LSP birds.}

I especially don't understand how the air force let its numbers slip to such a degree. The worst part is the complete lack of urgency to buy and replace old aircraft. They've taken 5 years to decide which aircraft to buy! Is it me, or does it seem like India's defense planning is a complete mess?
{the hard fact is that ,so far neither IAF nor GOI predicted any conflict with China in the coming decade atleast before 2015.So IAF and GOI mainly concentrated on Pak and neglected replacements and new inductions,while whining for strategic ties under the name of nuke deal and MRCA. As many people dont know,MRCA is not just a $10 billion tender,but the most realistic estimates including the option to exercise 74 more birds put the total value at a mean $30 billions.whoever wins the contract,still have to integrate russian weapons and thier own weapons.Now tell me, is it worth going hush bush over a $30 billion contract? Finally we will be ending up with ~200 LCA,~200 MRCA,250PAKFA,200 MCA,~300 MKI.After all,I guess its worth the late.
And we shouldnt be too much worrying about china.Morelikely we have to deal with pak alone while the rest is hypothetical scenario.}

 

[gogbot]

But one could also argue that the Russian and Chinese proved the other side too, although Russian tanks was inferior to German tanks in WW2 in 1 on 1, the sheer number of them was too much for the few superior, but costly Tigers.

Rubbish , the Germans were surrounded due to bad strategy. The crucial failing they had was attacking the soviet union without the British. that's why they lost the war, they over extended themselves to early, and their allies had no where near the same capabilities as the Germans .

And let me remind in the outset of the War, the Russia came our with superior tanks that out classed the German panthers very quickly.

It was not until German Panzers and Tigers enters the fray did the Russia's tank forces stop.

But then the allies crippled the German infrastructure to wage war ,
the jet engine, the guided missiles , superior tanks all suffered from Infrastructure falling apart around them. German engineers were few ,allied bombings were taking an immense toll.

In the end the WWII ended with one side gaining clear technological dominance , with the US dropping the A-bomb .

WWII proved the victor would always be the one with more. technology.

Imo we have to focus on both, quality and quantity, especially in IAF!
I don't consider PAF as a real threat for India, because they are inferior in quality and quantity to IAF and mainly will be needed as a defense force. PLAAF instead is and moreover will be a whole different league! Most of their present fleet of course remains with older fighters just as ours, but they are modernising highly too and in a combo with J10 and J11, even the numbers of older fighters will be a big problem too.
A 2 front war is the worst thing that can happen for India and can't be won without foreign help, no matter what some military officials say. Although the manpower might be there, the overwhelming number of fighters, missiles and tanks will be the overkill.
I doubt that we can counter PLAAF in numbers anytime, but in quality we already can compete and will push the level even upwards, which will be enough to defend ourself.

Let me say one thing bluntly , we cant compete with the PLAAF in terms of numbers, their military budget it 3x ours.

They have compulsory military training , simple put their systems and condition lets them be a much larger forces.

We don't have the money to go at it with China , it would bankrupt us if we tried to do something like that.

Our advantage has to be qualitative , we need a clear technological leg up over China . This is the only option we have, our force multipliers need to be our main focus.

A 2 front war is the worst thing that can happen for India and can't be won without foreign help,

Well i doubt a 2 front war , would ever happen.

even if it did and all our allies and benefactors did nothing.
this includes Russia , US and the UN . Our benefactors in Europe as well.

We could always push ourselves on to a staunch defensive .
We will loose territory, but we have too much manpower for them to ever over run the country.

And there is always our Nuclear deterrence.