Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[SQ8]

ASRAAM was chosen for the Jaguar (and then the wider IAF fleet as the NG-CCM), in competition with the Python V, due to it's longer range (as you mentioned, almost BVR) and lower drag when mounted on the over wing pylons of the Jaguar.

ASRAAM integration is now going on in a more widespread way, including on the Tejas Mk1A and Su-30MKI.

There was news that India was developing an IIR seeker equipped Astra based missile, but there are no updates on it, so not sure of the status of it. Would be an ideal complement to the Astra Mk1 BVRAAM just as the MICA IR/EM are with primary difference being the different seeker and different algorithms for approaching the target.

As for the Jaguar, they are meant to be bomb trucks. Stable at very low altitudes with pilots regularly flying nap of the earth missions. I have personally once seen a 3 ship Jaguar formation fly literally 200 feet above me in what was not a rural area. The Jaguar DARIN 3 introduces a new autopilot with several modes, which is a huge boon for strike pilots, given that it frees them up to work on mission data than flying at least part of the way.

The Jaguar DARIN 3's Elta 2052 AESA radar and IDAS (Integrated Defensive Avionics Suite) EW suite with the EW jammer pod, offers them almost cutting edge air to air target tracking and threat approach warning as well as jamming. More than enough to allow them to fire their ASRAAMs in self defence from a long way out, and then light their burners, hit the 100 ft ASL mark (to make ground clutter a real issue) and then try to egress as fast as possible.

Of course the primary need for the Elta 2052 is to allow for the air to ground modes, enhanced SAR, Inverse SAR, ground mapping and target ranging. The number of targets the Jaguar DARIN 3 can now map accurately will see a quantum jump.

Plus, with the new INS/GPS the navigation will be far far more accurate. Put in the autopilot and you have missions that will be a LOT easier for pilots. Especially demanding night time missions.

Jaguar DARIN 3 cockpit with 3 Smart MFDs

Giving the MKI and Tejas ASRAAM vs R-74 variants would go a long way although fleet commonality would suggest the MICA-IR or a local derivative.

One big advantage the PAF recieved with the US Camp was the sidewinder and the associated ToT for integration and in house upgrades. While more basic in its L/M guise than the varieties in service with the IAF - pretty much every aircraft in the PAF can use it so there is never a case where stocks for it can run low.

The IAF (and Indian military in general ) has a huge achillees heel with over diversification of equipment and disparate equipment types and compatibility

 

[MirageBlue]

Giving the MKI and Tejas ASRAAM vs R-74 variants would go a long way although fleet commonality would suggest the MICA-IR or a local derivative.

One big advantage the PAF recieved with the US Camp was the sidewinder and the associated ToT for integration and in house upgrades. While more basic in its L/M guise than the varieties in service with the IAF - pretty much every aircraft in the PAF can use it so there is never a case where stocks for it can run low.

The IAF (and Indian military in general ) has a huge achillees heel with over diversification of equipment and disparate equipment types and compatibility

Actually ASRAAM is to be built in India via a JV between BEL and MBDA. It is locally called the NG-CCM (Next Gen Close Combat Missile).

While the Python V has already been integrated and test fired from the Tejas Mk1A, the ASRAAM is slated to be integrated with the Tejas Mk1A.

R-73E stocks are huge in the IAF as well. In fact, so much so that the IAF basically did "jugaad" to come up with it's own R-27 and R-73E based SAM launcher called SAMAR. This is to make use of the stocks bought already, as the IAF now begins to move towards other newer CCMs and BVRAAMs like the Astra Mk1.

As I understand it, the R-73E was superior to the AIM-9M/L and only the AIM-9X brought in a generational gap with a much superior seeker.

Just FYI, the Mirage-2000s (pre being upgraded to Mirage-2000I standard) in IAF service were also integrated and equipped with the R-73E since it was much superior to the Magic II missiles that were getting obsolete and out of service life. So, almost all of the IAF's fighter fleet (barring the Jaguar and MiG-27) were capable of using the R-73E.

However, the Indian Air Force (IAF) isn’t inexperienced with mating otherwise incompatible systems with technical hacks when one considers the famous project of fusing the Russian R-73 with the French Mirage-2000 with Israeli expertise.

To replace the aging R-530D Magic missiles on the Mirage-2000 in 2008, the IAF had to go against French and Russian objections to integrating the R-73 onto the delta-wing fighter.

In the book ‘Indian Air Force: The Case for Indigenization,’ former Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal AK Nagalia recalled how Israeli engineers were allowed access to the Mirage-2000’s Digibus. This chipset trades information between the jet’s various sub-systems and its mission computer.

Israeli companies Elbit and Rafael, manufacturers of the DASH helmet-mounted display and Crystal Maze air-to-surface missile (ASM), undertook the project.

An HMD projects flight display, readings, and other information directly on the pilot’s visor. This reduces the stress of flying and focuses more on the combat part.

Lacking the software ‘source codes’ of the Mirage’s radar, the Digibus allowed the Israeli engineers to decode the data bus protocol through “extensive trials.” New algorithms allowed the Mirage’s radar and the Israeli HMD to ‘talk’ to the Russian missile.

link

Now of course, all Mirage-2000 and Rafales use common MICA EM/IR stocks and then the Rafale fleet has it's 200 odd Meteors. The MICA IR is by far considered one of the most dangerous, given it's range and extreme agility.

 

[SQ8]

Actually ASRAAM is to be built in India via a JV between BEL and MBDA. It is locally called the NG-CCM (Next Gen Close Combat Missile).

While the Python V has already been integrated and test fired from the Tejas Mk1A, the ASRAAM is slated to be integrated with the Tejas Mk1A.

R-73E stocks are huge in the IAF as well. In fact, so much so that the IAF basically did "jugaad" to come up with it's own R-27 and R-73E based SAM launcher called SAMAR. This is to make use of the stocks bought already, as the IAF now begins to move towards other newer CCMs and BVRAAMs like the Astra Mk1.

As I understand it, the R-73E was superior to the AIM-9M/L and only the AIM-9X brought in a generational gap with a much superior seeker.

Just FYI, the Mirage-2000s (pre being upgraded to Mirage-2000I standard) in IAF service were also integrated and equipped with the R-73E since it was much superior to the Magic II missiles that were getting obsolete and out of service life. So, almost all of the IAF's fighter fleet (barring the Jaguar and MiG-27) were capable of using the R-73E.

link

Now of course, all Mirage-2000 and Rafales use common MICA EM/IR stocks and then the Rafale fleet has it's 200 odd Meteors. The MICA IR is by far considered one of the most dangerous, given it's range and extreme agility.

That is still 4 missiles with their own logistics, storage training, maintenance training and so on instead of ONE

 

[VkdIndian]

That is still 4 missiles with their own logistics, storage training, maintenance training and so on instead of ONE

That’s the tragedy of defence procurement system in India.

Multiplicity of systems is a nightmare for the operators and a gold mine for those who benefit from it.

 

[SQ8]

That’s the tragedy of defence procurement system in India.

Multiplicity of systems is a nightmare for the operators and a gold mine for those who benefit from it.

Still great to see the R-73 on the Mirage although without a paired HMD then it would be a little handicapped.

 

[MirageBlue]

That is still 4 missiles with their own logistics, storage training, maintenance training and so on instead of ONE

And on the flip side, that much more for the enemy to worry about in terms of dissimilar training. Logistics for air to air missiles is not that big of a deal. It's managed pretty efficiently with the new electronic MMS (Maintenance Management System). Training for using the stocks are anyway limited to the personnel of each squadron that uses the systems.

 

[MirageBlue]

Still great to see the R-73 on the Mirage although without a paired HMD then it would be a little handicapped.

But the Mirage-2000H (non-upgraded) also featured a HMDS. I've seen the IAF recruitment poster near Pune airbase where it was clearly visible.

This picture below is from that same picture, showing a Mirage-2000H (with black radome) and DASH HMDS. Only the Su-30MKI lacks a modern HMDS as of now, even MiG-29UPG pilots have it.

 

[Paji]

Japan, India start first joint fighter jet drill

Both countries — along with Australia and US — are part of the Quad alliance of powers concerned about China's military might.

www.dawn.com

 

[SQ8]

And on the flip side, that much more for the enemy to worry about in terms of dissimilar training. Logistics for air to air missiles is not that big of a deal. It's managed pretty efficiently with the new electronic MMS (Maintenance Management System). Training for using the stocks are anyway limited to the personnel of each squadron that uses the systems.

That’s where the disparities come in too - electronic supply chains are common now but you still have to train people. Tablets, expanded views and so on make it easy but you are dealing with desis so lets not forget the cultural handicaps.

2 types might have made sense, the 4 is a bit too much. Other than the Python one of your enemies has deep intel and first hand training on the platforms courtesy of their allies and “quiet” sitting in on briefings as their “allies”.

Hence the need to unify and move to a India specific platform. One of the advantages China has with lesser adoption of its products outside of its ecosystem is that no one knows about them. The PL-10 is one system like that - the IAF could do well to train most of its units on how to fight against ASRAAM/Python 5 class equipped aircraft.

The ASTRA is a great example of where even if it is not the longest stick nor the most sophisticated - India controls all aspects of it including exposure to outside eyes. Hence unlike all other platforms where adversaries can find exposure and weaknesses to elsewhere, they will have trouble doing so for the Astra.

 

[MirageBlue]

That’s where the disparities come in too - electronic supply chains are common now but you still have to train people. Tablets, expanded views and so on make it easy but you are dealing with desis so lets not forget the cultural handicaps.

2 types might have made sense, the 4 is a bit too much. Other than the Python one of your enemies has deep intel and first hand training on the platforms courtesy of their allies and “quiet” sitting in on briefings as their “allies”.

Hence the need to unify and move to a India specific platform. One of the advantages China has with lesser adoption of its products outside of its ecosystem is that no one knows about them. The PL-10 is one system like that - the IAF could do well to train most of its units on how to fight against ASRAAM/Python 5 class equipped aircraft.

The ASTRA is a great example of where even if it is not the longest stick nor the most sophisticated - India controls all aspects of it including exposure to outside eyes. Hence unlike all other platforms where adversaries can find exposure and weaknesses to elsewhere, they will have trouble doing so for the Astra.

Agreed on the fact that the PAF has had exposure to exercises with allies armed with MICA, Meteor (Qatar?), R-77 (China?). But what about ASRAAM and R-27? I couldn't think of which air force they work closely with has the ASRAAM or R-27. Derby and Python V have been exported too, but I guess the PAF hasn't yet had exercises with nations armed with those.

But the same holds true for the AMRAAM and AIM-9 series, for which the IAF has had a lot of exposure through it's training with the USAF, RSAF (Singapore), Israel, RAF and RAAF. Given that the Myanmar military is also quite friendly with the Indian armed forces, there is always the possibility that some exchanges may occur which may give some insight into the PL-12/SD-10 BVRAAM.

I think this familiarity with the AMRAAM's performance and NEZ is a key factor in the encounter between the 2 Su-30MKIs and multiple F-16s taking several AMRAAM shots which the Su-30MKIs evaded.

I think that the IAF will take into the account that the PL-10 is one of PLAAF's latest CCMs and simulate it accordingly, based on intimate knowledge of ASRAAM and Python V performance.

And yes, having an indigenous BVRAAM is a big advantage since it is relatively unknown to enemies. They too will have to simulate it based on assumptions of its capabilities and NEZ. My guess would be broadly along the lines of the AIM-120 C7.

 

[walterbibikow]

Next generation RWR for SU-30 MKI

https://twitter.com/x/status/1588868685976195073

@TopGun786 @Primus @Yasser76

 

[MirageBlue]

IAF exercising with the JASDF as part of the first Ex Veer Guardian 2023. 4 Su-30MKIs and a C-17 traveled to Japan to participate. They're going against the JASDF's F-2 and F-15J/DJ fighters.

The 4 Su-30MKIs are from No.220 'Desert Tigers' squadron of the IAF, based at Halwara AFS.

SB219, SB220, SB225 and SB235 from No.220 'Desert Tigers' squadron

 

[SQ8]

Agreed on the fact that the PAF has had exposure to exercises with allies armed with MICA, Meteor (Qatar?), R-77 (China?). But what about ASRAAM and R-27? I couldn't think of which air force they work closely with has the ASRAAM or R-27. Derby and Python V have been exported too, but I guess the PAF hasn't yet had exercises with nations armed with those.

But the same holds true for the AMRAAM and AIM-9 series, for which the IAF has had a lot of exposure through it's training with the USAF, RSAF (Singapore), Israel, RAF and RAAF. Given that the Myanmar military is also quite friendly with the Indian armed forces, there is always the possibility that some exchanges may occur which may give some insight into the PL-12/SD-10 BVRAAM.

I think this familiarity with the AMRAAM's performance and NEZ is a key factor in the encounter between the 2 Su-30MKIs and multiple F-16s taking several AMRAAM shots which the Su-30MKIs evaded.

I think that the IAF will take into the account that the PL-10 is one of PLAAF's latest CCMs and simulate it accordingly, based on intimate knowledge of ASRAAM and Python V performance.

And yes, having an indigenous BVRAAM is a big advantage since it is relatively unknown to enemies. They too will have to simulate it based on assumptions of its capabilities and NEZ. My guess would be broadly along the lines of the AIM-120 C7.

Lets disagree on the February incident - my friend was flying that day so I prefer the first hand account compared to yours.

PAF actually has had intimate experience with the R-27 through a friendly country - but the ASRAAM is an unknown.

 

[datafreak]

Giving the MKI and Tejas ASRAAM vs R-74 variants would go a long way although fleet commonality would suggest the MICA-IR or a local derivative.

One big advantage the PAF recieved with the US Camp was the sidewinder and the associated ToT for integration and in house upgrades. While more basic in its L/M guise than the varieties in service with the IAF - pretty much every aircraft in the PAF can use it so there is never a case where stocks for it can run low.

The IAF (and Indian military in general ) has a huge achillees heel with over diversification of equipment and disparate equipment types and compatibility

Yes, but with the exit of many Russian types (especially Mig series), the pool of eqipment is slowly becoming more common.

 

[MirageBlue]

IAF's LCH Prachand helicopter which has entered service with the first 143 Helicopter Unit 'Dhanush'