Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[sudhir007]

Modernization of AN-32 Fleet of IAF

India and Ukraine have signed a contract on Modernisation of one hundred and five AN-32 fleet of Indian Air Force (IAF). This contract was signed on June 15, 2009 for Total Life Extension, Overhaul and Re-equipment of AN-32 fleet of Indian Air Force. The up-to-date equipment which will be fitted on the aircraft during modernization include avionics and hydraulic systems, etc. The life of AN-32 aircraft will be increased by 15 years up to 40 years. First batch of aircraft has already been positioned in Ukraine.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Shri Nand Kumar Sai in Rajya Sabha today.

 

[gogbot]

You think Russian or European hardware comes without "contracts" or "agreements" ?

These are standard terms and conditions necessary to protect the interests of seller and the buyer ..jeez for crying out loud here in the US you can't get a massage without signing some document (waiver).

..its a damn shame, I guess we'll throw in a TomTom for you guys..

US is well within it's rights to put attach as many agreements as it wants to its equipment.

But the buyer always has the choice of whether or not to buyer not.

Given the fact that India is not signing these agreements , why do we need to keep buying them to only get downgraded systems.

If we intend to sign these agreements then fine.

Otherwise we should try to get Russian or European systems , at least we are not get downgraded systems.

 

[dbc]

US is well within it's rights to put attach as many agreements as it wants to its equipment.

But the buyer always has the choice of whether or not to buyer not.

Given the fact that India is not signing these agreements , why do we need to keep buying them to only get downgraded systems.

If we intend to sign these agreements then fine.

Otherwise we should try to get Russian or European systems , at least we are not get downgraded systems.

..well no one is twisting your arm, the equipment isn't "downgraded" its choice you've made. When we deliver equipment we expect our customers to sign agreements that protect our technology. India choose not to sign the communications secrecy pact that protects our encryption technology - why?

Like I said before both Russian and European vendors will have similar agreements. And do remind me how long you had to wait for the IL-76's for the Phalcon?

 

[Dash]

This is one good thing that US doesnt delay any contracts, and they are right in what they are doing.

 

[rajgoynar]

DRDO develops once-in-lifetime test to select IAF pilots


New Delhi, Aug 5 (PTI) In three years from now, the IAF will shift to a new, advanced scientific tool to select pilots that will allow once-in-a-lifetime assessment of a candidate''s physical and cognitive abilities. The new system, called Computerised Pilot Selection System (CPSS), developed by DRDO will replace the existing Pilot Aptitude and Battery Test (PABT) that only considered the psycho-motor (synchronisation of mind and limbs) abilities of aspiring IAF pilots. The IAF and DRDO today signed an agreement that envisaged delivery of 80 such CPSS simulators along with 300 nodes for cognitive tests to the Staff Selection Boards (SSB) situated in Dehradun, Mysore and Allahabad at a cost of Rs 25 crore in three years time. "CPSS is a unique, path-breaking system in the world and is the best of the best system for assessing the aptitude of candidates for selection into the IAF''s fighter, transport and helicopter flying streams," DRDO Chief Controller (Life Sciences) Dr W Selvamurthy said. Developed jointly by the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Delhi-based Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR), the project for designing the CPSS began in 1998 and has fructified after 12 years of research by the two laboratories to prepare a foolproof test. "The development has taken this much time because of the lengthy process involved in developing both the psycho-motor and cognitive tests. We want to be sure the test is foolproof so that once a candidate has gone through the CPSS and failed, he or she cannot crack it again," Selvamurthy explained. The system, he said, came about through a collaboration that the DRDO labs did with IAF over these 12 years right from the time the system was conceived. The DRDO teams also extensively studied 17 such systems in use in countries such as US, UK, Germany, France, Israel, China and Canada to adopt the best practices from them and refined them to suit the Indian standards. IAF''s Air Officer Personnel Air Marshal K J Mathews said the CPSS would provide the best pilots and with cutting edge manpower, the force may be able to reduce the number of accidents, which is of major concern to it. "People involved in warfare need to be cutting edge and the best. We will be delighted to have the CPSS within the three years time," he said. Mathews also noted that the three SSB centres that currently carry out pilot aptitude tests were working overtime due to the huge number of candidates appearing for those tests every year


DRDO develops once-in-lifetime test to select IAF pilots, IBN Live News

 

[sancho]

..well no one is twisting your arm, the equipment isn't "downgraded" its choice you've made. When we deliver equipment we expect our customers to sign agreements that protect our technology. India choose not to sign the communications secrecy pact that protects our encryption technology - why?

Like I said before both Russian and European vendors will have similar agreements. And do remind me how long you had to wait for the IL-76's for the Phalcon?

The question why we don't sign all of your contract can simply be answered, because we have no reason to thrust the US blindly, it is the other way around, you have to proof to be reliable first!

Not necessarily, as we can see in the MMRCA, most of the European nations offered ToT, source codes, no EUM, or other restrictions.
If we can live with your restriction, we can have very good arms and techs from you, that are in many terms even cost-effective. But if we want to remain independent and not bound to US restrictions, we simply have to pay some more for European, or customise the cheaper Russian alternatives that we have.
A50 Phalcons was delayed and even expensive, but gives us the most secure and reliable choice and the US have still a long way to go till you can reach such a level as Russia, or Isreal.
At the moment we are in the better position, because you want us as a partner against China and not to mention the huge economical market. That's why we can ask for a lot more that normal export customers could do before, but if you can't, or don't want to compromise, we simply take one of the other choices we have.

 

[dbc]

The question why we don't sign all of your contract can simply be answered, because we have no reason to thrust the US blindly, it is the other way around, you have to proof to be reliable first!

Not necessarily, as we can see in the MMRCA, most of the European nations offered ToT, source codes, no EUM, or other restrictions.
If we can live with your restriction, we can have very good arms and techs from you, that are in many terms even cost-effective. But if we want to remain independent and not bound to US restrictions, we simply have to pay some more for European, or customise the cheaper Russian alternatives that we have.
A50 Phalcons was delayed and even expensive, but gives us the most secure and reliable choice and the US have still a long way to go till you can reach such a level as Russia, or Isreal.
At the moment we are in the better position, because you want us as a partner against China and not to mention the huge economical market. That's why we can ask for a lot more that normal export customers could do before, but if you can't, or don't want to compromise, we simply take one of the other choices we have.

..you still don't get it do you? Lets take a closer look at your very own baby The Rafale. See below a list of major components supplier
for the Rafale. Notice the supplier for the Spectra suite is Thales USA and this critical piece of Rafale's tech is thus governed by US laws and export regulations. So every objection you've had to US tech applies to the Rafale as well. How do you think the Rafale encrypts GPS communications? Again the objections you've had for the C-17 is valid for the Rafale.

If you're looking for European defense hardware without US tech and IP then I guess you're better off getting Russian Hardware.

 

[flanker143]

i know the article is old but still it might be a good read .....
sorry if a repost.....

The Indian AEW&C project detailed

July 16th, 2008 |

Embraer and the Indian Government have signed a deal for three EMB 145 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control) jets. The contract includes a comprehensive logistics package comprised of training, technical support, spare parts, and ground support equipment. The first delivery is scheduled for 2011. The three aircraft will be outfitted by the customer with cabin equipment and mission systems. Centre for Air Borne Systems (CABS), a unit of DRDO is the central agency for integration and delivery of the AEW&C.

Embraer-145 has been the aircraft of choice by the IAF as per their operational requirement (OR) since 2002 when it was evolved. There have been no changes over it. The platform was evolved with DRDO and IAF panel. IAF has chosen Embraer-145 due to commonality with the Embraer executive jets it already operates. These 3 AEW&C jets will join four Legacy jets in operation by the Indian Air Force (IAF) used to transport Indian VIPs, as well as foreign dignitaries. A fifth Legacy belongs to the Border Security Force (BSF), under India’s Home Ministry.

The aircraft is estimated to have an endurance of 5 hours from take off to landing. 5 hours total endurance means an operational endurance of 3 -3.5 hours of the AEW&C. 1-2 hours are reserved for taking off in and reaching the particular spot and then coming back. Initially the IAF wanted total endurance of 5-6 hours. In last 3 years, IAF has introduced new elements like IFR probe, communication support measures, SATCOM etc. A fuel to weight study found that the new systems will give an endurance of 5 hours. The introduction of the IFR will give the AEW&C an extended endurance of another 5 hours. Logically the IAF has asked for 7 extra executive chairs for additional 5 operators and 2 pilots. Hence there has been 3 years delay in the signing of Embraer platform.

The AEW&C designed to accomodate 5 re-configurable controller workstations. The work stations can be re-configured for electronic warfare consoles or communication consoles etc.

DRDO’s Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU) or the Primary radar is designed to have a range of 200 kms for 2 sqm target as per the OR by the IAF. In international comparison table it translates to 5 sq meters target or RCS can be detected at a range of 300 kms in normal mode of operations and 375 kms for extended modes, i.e. while not looking 240 degree all the time. The secondary radar is designed to be of same range but for functions like identification Friend or Foe etc. The radars can function both in air mode and surface mode.

The primary AESA antenna will be built in CABS. The central processing unit and radar processing units are made by the LRDE. Secondary radar is entirely built in CABS and has a PESA Antenna. The secondary radar will be tested in 3 months by CABS.

The AEW&C is expected to have a 60 degree blind spot in both front and back. IAF can have 360 degree coverage with 3 antenna combination instead of 2 antennas side by side, but, that means pushing the deliveries further. It will be looked at a further date.

The first prototype is expected to be ready by 2012, i.e, one year from the date of receipt of the first aircraft. After that it will undergo a flight testing of 200-300 hours to become fully operational.

 

[sancho]

..you still don't get it do you? Lets take a closer look at your very own baby The Rafale. See below a list of major components supplier
for the Rafale. Notice the supplier for the Spectra suite is Thales USA and this critical piece of Rafale's tech is thus governed by US laws and export regulations. So every objection you've had to US tech applies to the Rafale as well. How do you think the Rafale encrypts GPS communications? Again the objections you've had for the C-17 is valid for the Rafale.

If you're looking for European defense hardware without US tech and IP then I guess you're better off getting Russian Hardware.

Check my post again:

If we can live with your restriction, we can have very good arms and techs from you, that are in many terms even cost-effective.

So it's not about the US arms, or techs at all, it's about all the restrictions that you pose on customers, that others don't.

Wonder where you found objections against the C-17 in my post?

Regarding Rafale components, kind of funny how you claim Thales is US and is governed by US laws and export regulations, only because it has a subsidiary in the US. By the same logic, Hexcel Composites must be French, because it subsidiary in France produces the parts for Rafale and several other components for EADS:

Hexcel Composites (France)

Contact details

Address Z.I. La Plaine, BP 27 Dagneaux, F-01121 Montluel Cedex, .

Web Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial

Client aircraft programs:

...Dassault Rafale Carbon Fibre - Carbon fibers, structural adhesives, honeycombs, prepregs, sandwich panels and reinforcement fabrics

Same goes for L'Hotellier and Martin Baker as far as I know is British and it's subsidiary in France, which produces the MK16 seats for Rafale is even half owned by Snecma according to their website:

France
Created in 1959, the Société d'Exploitation des Matériels Martin-Baker (SEMMB) is 50/50 owned by Snecma and Martin-Baker

Producing some minor components doesn't make it US tech and also not bound to US restrictions, that's why the Europeans also want more own techs and weapons instead from US. Just take the UK for example which customised nearly the whole WAH Apache with European parts, be it engine, weapons, comunication systems...
The Europeans developed their main techs for Rafale and EF alone in Europe and that's why they can offer more ToT and less restrictions. That is the same reasons why the European are prefered by Brazil too, because they can improve the Brazilian industry with ToT and JV and won't limit them with restrictions like the US did before.

As I said, if we can live with US restrictions, US arms are for sure not a bad choice, but we are not dependent on them, because we have other and sometimes even better options! That's why we don't sign all your contracts right away like other dependent countries might do and even the US gov knows that. If you want a piece of this cake (market), you have to compromise more with us, than with other countires, that's why the compromised on EUM for us more than they ever did before, that's why they possibly will increase ToT (did that in Brazil to some extend too) and other benefits.

 

[dbc]

Check my post again:
Regarding Rafale components, kind of funny how you claim Thales is US and is governed by US laws and export regulations, only because it has a subsidiary in the US. By the same logic, Hexcel Composites must be French, because it subsidiary in France produces the parts for Rafale and several other components for EADS:

US export laws govern US origin equipment, components and sub components. US Origin covers both US intellectual property and US manufactured components.
In the case of Spectra, the origin is Thales USA its not "my claim" it is claimed by Airframer: The aerospace manufacturing directory . You need a paid subscription to use the site.

The nationality of the firm is irrelevant where the item in question is manufactured or conceived is important along with its classification both military and dual use items require compliance with US laws. Have you ever wondered why Iran procures spare parts for its Airbus fleet from the black market. Airbus A330 is 60% US origin, the newer Airbus A380 is 51% US content. If you believe the Rafale is immune to US influence then you are seriously misinformed.

As I said, if we can live with US restrictions, US arms are for sure not a bad choice, but we are not dependent on them, because we have other and sometimes even better options!

Under US sanctions the Indian Navy’s fleet of Westland Sea King was grounded, replacement parts for IAF Mirage was unavailable.
With the possible exception of the Mig-35 none of the other MRCA contenders are immune to US sanctions.

Because of the nuclear test performed by India, they were on the embargo list and were unable to get the correct parts sent as replacements. Consequently IAF technicians had to remanufacture this part in order to make the Paveway serviceable for use on the Mirage.

I believe the decision makers in India are aware that India will have far bigger problems than getting spares for its military equipment if sanctions are ever imposed.
I also believe the threshold for sanctions in India’s case is far greater than most countries since sanctions on India will have far reaching global consequences.

In conclusion, sanctions on India is bad for India and the US since US firms are heavily vested in India.
Due to all of the above I do not understand Indian paranoia.

 

[indushek]

After reading so many concerns, accusations and arguments and counter arguments about CISMOA and other 'objectionable' agreements, I think there is more than which meets the eye here.

Regarding EUMA too there was as much hullabaloo. However it was done with in the end.

Regarding these two i think the GOI wound ink them regardless of these objections. The simple reason for this is that , what is the use of a downgraded platform? true we will move in to US camp as expected. However if anybody sees the curent events that has already happened. I think the Govt is just trying keep it from the public eye as long as possible. In secret they would do it.

Reasons our relation with Russia and our global image of non-alignment. These are to be used for some time no doubt. So how much we argue at the end of the day the armed forces would like to get a capable platform, whatever it is.

 

[rajgoynar]

Airforce mountaineers set off on Mission Tricolour



A team of Indian Air Force (IAF) mountaineers was Friday flagged off from here on an expedition to scale Mt. Elbrus in Europe and Mt. Kilimanjaro in Africa - as part of its mission to hoist the Indian tricolour on top of all the highest peaks of each continent in the world.

Air officer-in-charge administration Air Marshal J.N. Burma flagged off the six-member mountaineering expedition team led by Wing Commander R.C. Tripathi.

The team also includes squadron leaders Namit Rawat, G.P. Kumar and D. Panda, Junior Warrant Officer N.R. Choudhary and Sergeant J. Singh. The expedition is from Aug 9 to Sep 4.

The climbers have undertaken many expeditions in the Himalaya region and have good experience of mountaineering. Mt. Elbrus is over 5,600 m high and Mt Kilimanjaro is nearly 5,900 m high.

Air Marshal Burma handed over the tricolour and the IAF flag to the team leader and wished them all success and a safe return.

The IAF mountaineering team has already summitted the highest mountain peak in the world Mt Everest (8,840 m) in May 2005.

Mountaineers from the IAF have also scaled Mt Carstensz Pyramid (4,884m), Australasia in January 2009, Mt. Aconcagua (6,962m), South America in March, and Mt Denali (6,194m) in North America in May this year.

IAF's 'Mission Seven Summits', to climb all the highest peaks of all the continents, began in 2005.

The project is being conducted under the aegis of Directorate of Air Force Adventure, the apex body looking after various adventure activities like sky diving, para gliding, paramotor, mountaineering, skiing, trekking, white water rafting, sailing and mountain terrain biking etc.

The last peak as a part of the mission will be attempted in December to climb Mt Vinson Massif in Antarctica.




Airforce mountaineers set off on Mission Tricolour

 

[sudhir007]

 

[ganimi kawa]

You think Russian or European hardware comes without "contracts" or "agreements" ?
These are standard terms and conditions necessary to protect the interests of seller and the buyer ..jeez for crying out loud here in the US you can't get a massage without signing some document (waiver).

..its a damn shame, I guess we'll throw in a TomTom for you guys..

Ma'am, are you implying that India has signed accords equivalent ( in scope and effect) to CISMOA et al with these countries? I need to know this before replying to you.

About the "paranoia" it can also be termed as " necessary caution " , just a different point of view!

 

[Archie]

First of all the above person is not a Maam , dont get fooled by Avtars
There are only to women on this forum , Emo and Jana , rest are just guys

By the posts i can figure out that the person is of south asian Decent