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safari 21 thank you for your input of what most likely happened .

for Pakistanis shooting down a mig21
and for 8 f16 v 2 mki avoiding a kill.

makes,them.happy and content.

Yet I have always,concluded the mirage2000 and mki where outnumbered.

in war it's India that will outnumber pak air Force. Then we will.see what the outcome could be
 
Forgive me but I stopped reading after the first line, any timeline you give is obviously from Indian sources and much of it made up from flimsey evidence at best, outright lies at worst.

Best to go to neutral sources, non Indian and non Pakistani. All of whom seem to support the Pakistani narrative.

Let's simply look at what actual EVIDENCE we have.

1) A wreckage of a AMRAAM, not a whole missile but a fragment, that was found extremely quickly in very mountanious terrain by India. This missile either exploded into tiny bits and was found by a miracle or was emmbeded into an IAF plane or at a crash site. No answers from IAF on this.

2) IAF Air Defence radar was so confused that it shot down a MI-17. The official explanation was that the IFF was off. This indicates that Indian Air Defence radar could not identify it anyway and that Indian AEW aircraft were not able to communicate it's location either.

3) 3 seperate videos showing Indian Brigade HQs targeted, then all three aiming systems deliberately all moved the cross hairs to approx 2 km right of the target. All three did the exact same thing as around the exact same time. This is on video. PAF stated this was deliberate, India states all three missed. I will leave you to judge.

4) MIG-21 wreckage and pilot captured with 4 missiles intact. This proves that no firing solution by the MIG-21

5) A media video interview of an IAF air defence controller in which she admits that heavy jamming led to severe communication between IAF controllers and IAF aircraft. Safe to say that this jamming was not limited to just the MIG-21s (which were also carrying the EL-8222 pod).

6) Statements by the IAF ACM claiming the outcome "would have been different" had IAF had Meteors and Rafales, if that is not a damning inductment of the SU-30/R-77 combo I do not know what it. No such statement on aircraft types, missiles or outcomes was ever given by the PAF ACM.

A non Pakistani and non Indian sources gives an excellent account below, Alan Warnes is Editor in Chief of Air Forces Monthly and covered the PAF for many years (which naturally makes him a victim of much hatred by Indians on social media).

Bits I can qoute also are

" The IAF is already talking about upgrading the radars of its Su-30MKIs with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) to provide increased situational awareness. Longer-term, the IAF will operate the Rafale and the Meteor, perhaps the best BVR air-to-air missile in the world. "

"The air battle saw five of the IAF’s agile MiG-21bisUPG Bisons of No 51 Squadron from Srinigar AFS being scrambled. They should have been working with the Su-30MKIs and their more powerful N011M Bars passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radars. The Flankers were expected to data-link their longer-range aerial picture to the Bisons operating ahead of them, allowing the MiGs to keep their radars switched off to evade detection by PAF radars.

However, the degraded communications meant the Bisons weren’t receiving anything from the Sukhois or the air defence controller."

“Monitoring of the radios by the PAF revealed the pilot of a Su-30MKI had called ‘Bingo’ [low on fuel] only 25 minutes into the mission, even though it can fly up to two hours. Around the same time, two Mirage 2000s also exited the active zone after claiming their air intercept radars were broken. That was strange, because PAF F-16s had picked up telltale transmission ‘chirps’ of the apparently serviceable Mirage 2000 radar on their threat-warning systems a short time earlier.”

"Former Indian Army officer Pravin Sawhney, now an independent military analyst, was critical of the IAF: “The PAF had better electronic warfare jammers and, as a result, the IAF could not communicate. If you do not win the battle in the electromagnetic spectrum, you will never win the war.”

1628263618724.png

On 5 April, DG ISPR Ghafoor came out with a supposedly new piece of ‘evidence’ to support the claim that Abhinandan NEVER launched his R-73 missile. This happened after the recovery of the MiG-21 debris from the crash site — a photo of which clearly shows a burnt-out R-73 on its launcher rail, with its seeker head a few feet ahead, lying near the nose of the MiG-21. Interestingly, the ‘second’ R-73 is NOT visible anywhere in the debris.
That caught Ghafoor’s goat and he, with support from the Pakistan Army’s dirty tricks department and some resourceful ‘jugaad’ — tweeted a picture of the so called air-to-air missiles recovered from the MiG-21 crash site, insinuating that — no missile was fired by the MiG-21 — with all being recovered at the site of the wreckage.
1628263665170.png


Now, herein lies a story — a story of a lie, deceit and misdirection. Ghafoor posted a ‘grainy’ low resolution photograph of 4 missiles — 2 x R-77 and 2 x R-73. The R-73 missile seen burnt on its launcher, is very much there with its seeker head lying loose on extreme right. But what is a modern-day miracle is the recovery of a near intact Vympel R-73 from the crash site.

Ghafoor opportunistically timed this tweet with the release of the Foreign Policy media piece by Lara Seligman, who claimed in her post that US government sources had confirmed to her that NO F-16s had been lost by the PAF. The article created a furore in Indian circles, wherein the US Government denied that any such count had taken place at all. But Ghafoor was looking for one such opportunity to slip past his misdirection effort, which beyond making him the most ‘liked’ Pakistani General on Twitter — unfortunately exposes his ‘evidence tampering’ lie to a great extent!

A very thoughtful tweet on the above does full justice to Ghafoor’s protracted effort to keep up the disinformation campaign against India.

13-1.jpg


Yes, Ghafoor and his ilk — picked up a R-73 from the black market or from one of Pakistan’s allies or e-bay or from wherever it came, and tagged it as a near intact R-73 — to support that NO R-73 launch took place on that fateful day. In fact Ghafoor may just find ‘ball tampering’ in an international cricket match to be a far more worthwhile preposition.

The ‘tampered evidence’ presented by Ghafoor is exposed by these three pertinent questions:

  1. Why the grainy image, especially since it’s of no help to a serious observer wanting to examine same for authenticity?
  2. Why NO observers allowed to check on these missiles — up-close and personal?
  3. Why NO serial number of the recovered R-73 provided, not even a partial one?
Ghafoor’s doctored evidence is proof that ISPR desperately wants to bury the PAF aircraft shoot down theory.

Because the ISPR boss knows that he and his army of bots, can control the narrative only so much — knowing well that in spite of the Pakistan Army’s best effort to cover the crashed debris of the PAF asset, social media is a far larger and sordid entity — beyond the control of any single nation — and one day — an image of the ‘second plane’ crashing in Azad Kashmir will pop out from some abyss of the very medium which the likes of him exploit to generate misinformation, to come and haunt the Pakistani armed forces at large.
Forgive me but I stopped reading after the first line, any timeline you give is obviously from Indian sources and much of it made up from flimsey evidence at best, outright lies at worst.

Best to go to neutral sources, non Indian and non Pakistani. All of whom seem to support the Pakistani narrative.

Let's simply look at what actual EVIDENCE we have.

1) A wreckage of a AMRAAM, not a whole missile but a fragment, that was found extremely quickly in very mountanious terrain by India. This missile either exploded into tiny bits and was found by a miracle or was emmbeded into an IAF plane or at a crash site. No answers from IAF on this.

2) IAF Air Defence radar was so confused that it shot down a MI-17. The official explanation was that the IFF was off. This indicates that Indian Air Defence radar could not identify it anyway and that Indian AEW aircraft were not able to communicate it's location either.

3) 3 seperate videos showing Indian Brigade HQs targeted, then all three aiming systems deliberately all moved the cross hairs to approx 2 km right of the target. All three did the exact same thing as around the exact same time. This is on video. PAF stated this was deliberate, India states all three missed. I will leave you to judge.

4) MIG-21 wreckage and pilot captured with 4 missiles intact. This proves that no firing solution by the MIG-21

5) A media video interview of an IAF air defence controller in which she admits that heavy jamming led to severe communication between IAF controllers and IAF aircraft. Safe to say that this jamming was not limited to just the MIG-21s (which were also carrying the EL-8222 pod).

6) Statements by the IAF ACM claiming the outcome "would have been different" had IAF had Meteors and Rafales, if that is not a damning inductment of the SU-30/R-77 combo I do not know what it. No such statement on aircraft types, missiles or outcomes was ever given by the PAF ACM.

A non Pakistani and non Indian sources gives an excellent account below, Alan Warnes is Editor in Chief of Air Forces Monthly and covered the PAF for many years (which naturally makes him a victim of much hatred by Indians on social media).

Bits I can qoute also are

" The IAF is already talking about upgrading the radars of its Su-30MKIs with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) to provide increased situational awareness. Longer-term, the IAF will operate the Rafale and the Meteor, perhaps the best BVR air-to-air missile in the world. "

"The air battle saw five of the IAF’s agile MiG-21bisUPG Bisons of No 51 Squadron from Srinigar AFS being scrambled. They should have been working with the Su-30MKIs and their more powerful N011M Bars passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radars. The Flankers were expected to data-link their longer-range aerial picture to the Bisons operating ahead of them, allowing the MiGs to keep their radars switched off to evade detection by PAF radars.

However, the degraded communications meant the Bisons weren’t receiving anything from the Sukhois or the air defence controller."

“Monitoring of the radios by the PAF revealed the pilot of a Su-30MKI had called ‘Bingo’ [low on fuel] only 25 minutes into the mission, even though it can fly up to two hours. Around the same time, two Mirage 2000s also exited the active zone after claiming their air intercept radars were broken. That was strange, because PAF F-16s had picked up telltale transmission ‘chirps’ of the apparently serviceable Mirage 2000 radar on their threat-warning systems a short time earlier.”

"Former Indian Army officer Pravin Sawhney, now an independent military analyst, was critical of the IAF: “The PAF had better electronic warfare jammers and, as a result, the IAF could not communicate. If you do not win the battle in the electromagnetic spectrum, you will never win the war.”


 
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Again, you are adept at qouting Indian sources which have given out not just misleading, but also contradicting information and you seem to think by just throwing as much as you can something will stick.

Essentially the world's leading aviation journalist claims he saw all 4 missiles intact. The world's leading diplomatic magazine (FP) also supports this.

All you can do to retort is post Indian social media posts by Indians. Ultimately that is why the narrative was won by Pakistan early on and the world (even ardent Indian supporters in the US) called India out for lying. As you are doing right now
 
Again, you are adept at qouting Indian sources which have given out not just misleading, but also contradicting information and you seem to think by just throwing as much as you can something will stick.

Essentially the world's leading aviation journalist claims he saw all 4 missiles intact. The world's leading diplomatic magazine (FP) also supports this.

All you can do to retort is post Indian social media posts by Indians. Ultimately that is why the narrative was won by Pakistan early on and the world (even ardent Indian supporters in the US) called India out for lying. As you are doing right now
Please counter my points with valid facts
 
safari 21 thank you for your input of what most likely happened .

for Pakistanis shooting down a mig21
and for 8 f16 v 2 mki avoiding a kill.

makes,them.happy and content.

Yet I have always,concluded the mirage2000 and mki where outnumbered.

in war it's India that will outnumber pak air Force. Then we will.see what the outcome could be
So are you saying that your pilot and decision makers were all fortune teller that they knew it was only going to be a conflict instead of war before the planes took off?

How many times have I been telling you, STOP talking about things that you don't know, you are too young for that.
 
Please counter my points with valid facts

You do not have any points, the evidence you posted is from Indian social media (i.e BS), I posted a factual rebuttal with evidence and neutral sources, you failed to answer it.

This debate was over 5 posts ago, I gave you a "surprise" and what more do you want? Tea?
 
View attachment 767828
On 5 April, DG ISPR Ghafoor came out with a supposedly new piece of ‘evidence’ to support the claim that Abhinandan NEVER launched his R-73 missile. This happened after the recovery of the MiG-21 debris from the crash site — a photo of which clearly shows a burnt-out R-73 on its launcher rail, with its seeker head a few feet ahead, lying near the nose of the MiG-21. Interestingly, the ‘second’ R-73 is NOT visible anywhere in the debris.
That caught Ghafoor’s goat and he, with support from the Pakistan Army’s dirty tricks department and some resourceful ‘jugaad’ — tweeted a picture of the so called air-to-air missiles recovered from the MiG-21 crash site, insinuating that — no missile was fired by the MiG-21 — with all being recovered at the site of the wreckage.
View attachment 767829

Now, herein lies a story — a story of a lie, deceit and misdirection. Ghafoor posted a ‘grainy’ low resolution photograph of 4 missiles — 2 x R-77 and 2 x R-73. The R-73 missile seen burnt on its launcher, is very much there with its seeker head lying loose on extreme right. But what is a modern-day miracle is the recovery of a near intact Vympel R-73 from the crash site.

Ghafoor opportunistically timed this tweet with the release of the Foreign Policy media piece by Lara Seligman, who claimed in her post that US government sources had confirmed to her that NO F-16s had been lost by the PAF. The article created a furore in Indian circles, wherein the US Government denied that any such count had taken place at all. But Ghafoor was looking for one such opportunity to slip past his misdirection effort, which beyond making him the most ‘liked’ Pakistani General on Twitter — unfortunately exposes his ‘evidence tampering’ lie to a great extent!

A very thoughtful tweet on the above does full justice to Ghafoor’s protracted effort to keep up the disinformation campaign against India.

13-1.jpg


Yes, Ghafoor and his ilk — picked up a R-73 from the black market or from one of Pakistan’s allies or e-bay or from wherever it came, and tagged it as a near intact R-73 — to support that NO R-73 launch took place on that fateful day. In fact Ghafoor may just find ‘ball tampering’ in an international cricket match to be a far more worthwhile preposition.

The ‘tampered evidence’ presented by Ghafoor is exposed by these three pertinent questions:

  1. Why the grainy image, especially since it’s of no help to a serious observer wanting to examine same for authenticity?
  2. Why NO observers allowed to check on these missiles — up-close and personal?
  3. Why NO serial number of the recovered R-73 provided, not even a partial one?
Ghafoor’s doctored evidence is proof that ISPR desperately wants to bury the PAF aircraft shoot down theory.

Because the ISPR boss knows that he and his army of bots, can control the narrative only so much — knowing well that in spite of the Pakistan Army’s best effort to cover the crashed debris of the PAF asset, social media is a far larger and sordid entity — beyond the control of any single nation — and one day — an image of the ‘second plane’ crashing in Azad Kashmir will pop out from some abyss of the very medium which the likes of him exploit to generate misinformation, to come and haunt the Pakistani armed forces at large.


Ok
By the way US never denied the F16 count. But you know that already so plz carry on.
Lovely to see you devote so much time and energy into this.
 
Surprised no one has mentioned it but with zero Tejas deliveries and SU-3O and Rafales deliveries complete I think this is the first time in it's history IAF have no new planes being delivered. For an air force of their size that means faster approach to block obsolesence. Usually an AF this big is almost constantly inducting new air frames.

With no Tejas and no new aircraft orders it means you can now forget about any further rapid modernisation. At the current Tejas pace they MAY complete the two current squadrons to full stregth by end of 2022.
 
IAF AH-64E(I) and CH-47F(I) helicopter operations from Nyoma ALG (14000Ft!)
The Camo does grow on you
A couple of things to note
Garud flight on the ALG is not that uncommon but rare to see the personnel on video, Igla systems being shown is very rare and seeing Grp Captain Ajay Rathi who also spoke to the media over a year ago from Leh
So the MiG-29UPG are more or less there permanently in the area!
One of the best types to operate out of austere and challenging conditions, straight line distances to the LAC is less than 60Km from the ALG, Invaluable experience of flying in the Valleys at those heights too.
 
First such image on the internet?
The Mirage-2000 TI flown by HAL ETP Grp Capt HV Thakur and wearing the Elbit DASH
E8XegcVXEAc4nwu

E8XegcbWYAsYqWQ

Image by journalist Sudhir Choudhary and shared by Twitter User @_devildog_mm_
 
Rafale is yet to be delivered completely

Surprised no one has mentioned it but with zero Tejas deliveries and SU-3O and Rafales deliveries complete I think this is the first time in it's history IAF have no new planes being delivered. For an air force of their size that means faster approach to block obsolesence. Usually an AF this big is almost constantly inducting new air frames.

With no Tejas and no new aircraft orders it means you can now forget about any further rapid modernisation. At the current Tejas pace they MAY complete the two current squadrons to full stregth by end of 2022.
 

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