Indian Air Force News & Discussions

[AmirPatriot]

Strike Eagle.
It has an downgraded APG70.

They have few more on order with a better APG63v3 AESA.

They have an upgrade program for theirs, so eventually all their F-15s will have AESA.

 

[Armani]

What do our Indian brothers and sisters think about Iran's possible purchase of the Su-30SM (similar to MKI)? How do they think it would do against Saudi F-15s, bearing in mind that the F-15 is significantly faster and has a better climb rate (speed kills)?

I ask because I know you are bound to be highly knowledgeable on this aircraft.

Thanks in advance.

Depends on what configuration you are getting with the Su-30SM. The Flanker is a highly upgradable platform.

At the moment, the Saudi F-15s have superiority in the field of electronics, especially radar. Su-30 beats it in aerodynamics and performance. But if you stick with the upgrade path as chosen by Indian AF - where an advanced GaN-based AESA radar derived from PAK-FA will be incorporated as part of 'Super Sukhoi' upgrade - together with all-round front & rear IRSTs, wing-mounted L-band radars and 360-degree MAWS aperture, then in that form Su-30SM can beat any F-15.

My advice would be - buy the baseline Su-30SM version (which should be better than the Su-30MKI of today) for now and you can upgrade it any time you want. A defence analyst here tells me that if Iran chooses to buy Flanker, soon we could see Iranian AF Su-30 crews training together with Indian MKIs.

 

[AmirPatriot]

Depends on what configuration you are getting with the Su-30SM. The Flanker is a highly upgradable platform.

At the moment, the Saudi F-15s have superiority in the field of electronics, especially radar. Su-30 beats it in aerodynamics and performance. But if you stick with the upgrade path as chosen by Indian AF - where an advanced GaN-based AESA radar derived from PAK-FA will be incorporated as part of 'Super Sukhoi' upgrade - together with all-round front & rear IRSTs, wing-mounted L-band radars and 360-degree MAWS aperture, then in that form Su-30SM can beat any F-15.

My advice would be - buy the baseline Su-30SM version (which should be better than the Su-30MKI of today) for now and you can upgrade it any time you want. A defence analyst here tells me that if Iran chooses to buy Flanker, soon we could see Iranian AF Su-30 crews training together with Indian MKIs.

Thank you for your post.

Just 1 thing - F-15s significantly outperform the flanker in the sector of speed, and as you probably know, in combat, speed kills. The F-15 has a faster top speed, climb rate and thrust/weight ratio.

What do you have to say about this?

 

[sathya]

Thank you for your post.

Just 1 thing - F-15s significantly outperform the flanker in the sector of speed, and as you probably know, in combat, speed kills. The F-15 has a faster top speed, climb rate and thrust/weight ratio.

What do you have to say about this?

Speed doesn't matter,
climb rate & t/we is important .
Engine upgrades are also being considered for our super sukhoi .

 

[Taygibay]

Amir is right, Sathya! With a 104-0 record, the F-15 is just about second to none!

Interestingly enough BTW, the IAF knows the truth on it better than most.
Think Red Flag 2008-04 and SU30-MKI detachment!

Good evening both, Tay.

 

[Armani]

Thank you for your post.

Just 1 thing - F-15s significantly outperform the flanker in the sector of speed, and as you probably know, in combat, speed kills. The F-15 has a faster top speed, climb rate and thrust/weight ratio.

What do you have to say about this?

As I said, much depends on what configuration you choose for your Flanker - I'm not sure if you have the option to put Su-35's Saturn 117S turbofan engines on your Flanker variant. It won't surpass F-15 in speed, but the higher performance can translate into better STR, possible supercruise ability, etc.

But if you wish to have regional air superiority, starting from the Su-30SM is the way to go. No other aircraft on the international market that you could possibly buy (non-Western) can deliver equal or better performance & capability - unless you consider the Su-35S.

 

[The enlightened]

Thank you for your post.

Just 1 thing - F-15s significantly outperform the flanker in the sector of speed, and as you probably know, in combat, speed kills. The F-15 has a faster top speed, climb rate and thrust/weight ratio.

What do you have to say about this?

F-15SA outperform your Su-30SM in nearly all departments. Maybe guns-only CCM is where it will be f&&cked but everywhere else speed, altitude, range to the payload, radar, EW, armament.........................F-15 wins everywhere.

104-0

USAF shooting helpless joke air-forces isn't nearly the same as a small regional power such as Saudi boxing with the Iranians. Without the advantage of massive SEAD/DEAD by B-2 and tomahawk, EW by dedicated aircrafts, Early warning aircrafts (in nos) and an opponent operating Soviet export-grade hand-me-downs, things would be a lot different.

 

[AmirPatriot]

F-15SA outperform your Su-30SM in nearly all departments. Maybe guns-only CCM is where it will be f&&cked but everywhere else speed, altitude, range to the payload, radar, EW, armament.........................F-15 wins everywhere.


USAF shooting helpless joke air-forces isn't nearly the same as a small regional power such as Saudi boxing with the Iranians. Without the advantage of massive SEAD/DEAD by B-2 and tomahawk, EW by dedicated aircrafts, Early warning aircrafts (in nos) and an opponent operating Soviet export-grade hand-me-downs, things would be a lot different.

Su-30SM is based on MKI.

MKI on wiki says climb rate of >300 m/s... this must be false, since even Su-35 has climb rate of >280 m/s, F-15 >250 m/s. What is the real climb rate for the MKI?

Altitude is almost the same, 2-3 thousand feet statistical difference is unimportant.

MKI has equal or better range than F-15, F-15 has range of 3900 km with 3 external and 2 conformal fuel tanks while MKI is 3000 km with no external fuel.

You are right with payload, but A2A missiles don't weigh much. MKI carries up to 12 missiles. F-15 can carry similar but more than 12 is not feasible because of drag. Extra pylons would be used for external fuel I guess.

How do you think APG-63 would stand up against an Su-30SM upgraded with Irbis-E?

You can't be sure of EW, Russians are very good at ECM/ECCM.

Same with armament, R-77 is competitive with Saudi AMRAAMs, and R-73 is off boresight.

 

[The enlightened]

Su-30SM is based on MKI.

MKI on wiki says climb rate of >300 m/s... this must be false, since even Su-35 has climb rate of >280 m/s, F-15 >250 m/s. What is the real climb rate for the MKI?

Altitude is almost the same, 2-3 thousand feet statistical difference is unimportant.

MKI has equal or better range than F-15, F-15 has range of 3900 km with 3 external and 2 conformal fuel tanks while MKI is 3000 km with no external fuel.

You are right with payload, but A2A missiles don't weigh much. MKI carries up to 12 missiles. F-15 can carry similar but more than 12 is not feasible because of drag. Extra pylons would be used for external fuel I guess.

How do you think APG-63 would stand up against an Su-30SM upgraded with Irbis-E?

You can't be sure of EW, Russians are very good at ECM/ECCM.

Same with armament, R-77 is competitive with Saudi AMRAAMs, and R-73 is off boresight.

Yes. It is further development of MKI. Almost 10 years ahead and russianized.

I already granted victory to MKI in BFM.

It is important. Higher altitude allows more energy to be transmitted to the missiles and superior entry to the merge.
PS Russians weapons as a thumb rule are exaggerated by 10% and western underestimated by 10%.

Saudi F-15's can carry upto 16 missiles. Neither will carry more than 8 per mission be it OCA or DCA.

Su-30 SM has BARS-RCS radar not IRBIS. There is no contest over EW capability of AESA versus hybrid ESA even if Russian somehow manages to have more peak transmit power. Although it would be hard to jam BARS.

Russian EW may be very good but they don't export that. MKI electronics are Indian, Israeli and French which were much better than any Russian alternative at the time.

Depends on R-77 version you get. AIM-120D will be very good as well as METEOR if they integrate it as they will have them with EFT's anyway. They also have available AIM-132 ASRAAM which is probably the best WVR missile in world.

At any rate, Russian/Soviet equipment has consistently underperformed against Western/American ones due to massive downgrades. It remains to be seen what they export. Iran unfortunately cannot buy Israeli electronics or even French which greatly reduces your EW options as well as HMD, targeting pods (we have LITENING) and weapons. Iran should develop its own electronics IMO.

 

[AmirPatriot]

Yes. It is further development of MKI. Almost 10 years ahead and russianized.

I already granted victory to MKI in BFM.

It is important. Higher altitude allows more energy to be transmitted to the missiles and superior entry to the merge.
PS Russians weapons as a thumb rule are exaggerated by 10% and western underestimated by 10%.

Saudi F-15's can carry upto 16 missiles. Neither will carry more than 8 per mission be it OCA or DCA.

Su-30 SM has BARS-RCS radar not IRBIS. There is no contest over EW capability of AESA versus hybrid ESA even if Russian somehow manages to have more peak transmit power. Although it would be hard to jam BARS.

Russian EW may be very good but they don't export that. MKI electronics are Indian, Israeli and French which were much better than any Russian alternative at the time.

Depends on R-77 version you get. AIM-120D will be very good as well as METEOR if they integrate it as they will have them with EFT's anyway. They also have available AIM-132 ASRAAM which is probably the best WVR missile in world.

At any rate, Russian/Soviet equipment has consistently underperformed against Western/American ones due to massive downgrades. It remains to be seen what they export. Iran unfortunately cannot buy Israeli electronics or even French which greatly reduces your EW options as well as HMD, targeting pods (we have LITENING) and weapons. Iran should develop its own electronics IMO.

No word on the MKI climb rate?

I know the importance of altitude, but the F-15 isn't going to be chilling at 60,000 ft the whole time. Aircraft rarely fly to their altitude ceilings. And the F-15 doesn't have a significant enough advantage for it to matter.

The Bars-R used in the SM is developed from the Bars used in the MKI. It is likely to be more powerful than the Bars, which I read on ausairpower has a peak power output of approximately 4-7 kw. With this information, I think a Bars-R has equal or better power output than the APG-63v3.

I don't really believe this thumb rule. In fact, I think it's the other way around. Western weapons are overrated in comparison to Russian systems.

Apparently, the Su-30SM still has French avionics incorporated into it.

The Saudis have the AIM-120C7 (range of ~105-110 km). R-77-1 has a range of 110 km. So about equal. And they also have AIM-9X. Also good, but it's no ASRAAM.

Russians may have gimped their export products in the past, but I think now they have realised that is unprofitable and now export top notch (maybe not as good as domestic, but still top notch) equipment.

 

[Taygibay]

Western weapons are overrated in comparison to Russian systems.

"Rosoboronexport cooperates with the companies belonging to Italian groups
(SELEX Elsag, SELEX Galileo и WASS), Spanish shipbuilding
concern Navantia, French company Thales Optronics and many others."​

http://rostec.ru/en/about/direct-control-companies/659

Russia is helped by EADS for space vehicles, Sextant Avionique for export Kamovs 52, Thales has
so had many ventures from K-52s to tanks, jets, space & Internet that it caused an outcry by some
Russians and ripples in French politics _here_, SNECMA / Safran helping with engines, etc.

And how about those Damocles pods that Pakistan is looking at? Remember when they were looked
at in 2007-2008 to equip exports in a licensed production because Ru jets lack in the smart bombs dept?

There are good Russian systems but the average product is not on par with Western ones, sorry!

Good day to you, Tay.

 

[T-55]

Indian Air Force aircraft arrived to Alaska to participate in "Red Flag" exercise

 

[sudhir007]

 

[neza]

any updates on the NAL Saras aircraft or has it been abandoned

 

[MKC]

any updates on the NAL Saras aircraft or has it been abandoned

Abandoned due to budget over runs (probably).