Indian Agni BM Technology origin

[jbond197]

The origin of Agni BM traces back to American 1960s Scout Missile. As early as 60s A.P. Kalam went to US to study about Scout missile and some how indian scientists managed to get their hands on Scout missile blue prints and later on India managed to copy Scout missile and named it "SLV-3". (The German Space Agency also tested a model of the first stage of the SLV-3 in one of its wind tunnels in Cologne and helped India build its own rocket test facilities. Germany also trained Indians in how to make composite materials.)

- The first stage of the Scout then became the first stage of India's first large ballistic missile, the Agni-I.
- The Agni-I's second stage was liquid-fueled, and was based on a surface-to-air missile called the SA-2 that India bought from Russia.
- France also helped India master liquid-fuel technology by selling India the technology used to build the "Viking" engine used on the Ariane space launcher. India calls its version the "Vikas."
- The Agni also needed a guidance system. The German Space Agency obliged with a long tutorial in rocket guidance, which allowed India to develop a guidance system and learn how to produce its components (gyroscopes, accelerometers and so forth).

1. Link of the article please.. I don't know why but most of the article you post lacks any links..
2. Nobody in the world is going to invent everything on its own from scratch. Help is always taken to master the Tech.
3. Key thing is that a nation should have local manufacturing for all the components so that it does not need to depend on other country in War-times. Over the years, India has built local manufacturing capabilities , hence indigenous..
4. India is now capitalizing on know-how gained over the years to develop more advanced technologies now.
5. India has always bought the technology and scientist learned it. it never needed intelligence help to steal any Tech Blue prints...

 

[Indian_Idol]

Indians have been barging about how indigenous indian missile technology is while Pak's is just copy of everything. Infact both india and pak have no indigenous missile technology. Without foreigner input both countries program are non existent.

Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control - Stopping Arms Proliferation at the Source

Missile Helpers

India did not build its missiles alone. The world's leading rocket producers gave essential help in research, development, and manufacture.

France

* Licensed production of sounding rockets in India
* Supplied the liquid-fuel Viking rocket engine, now the "Vikas" engine of the PSLV second stage
* Tested Indian-produced Vikas engine in France

Germany

* Delivered measurement and calibration equipment to ISRO laboratories
* Trained Indians in high-altitude tests of rocket motors and in glass and carbon fiber composites for rocket engine housings, nozzles and nose cones
* Designed high-altitude rocket test facilities
* Conducted wind tunnel tests for SLV-3 rocket
* Developed radio frequency interferometer for rocket guidance
* Developed computers for rocket payload guidance based on U.S. microprocessor
* Supplied documentation for a filament-winding machine to make rocket engine nozzles and housings
* Helped build Vikas rocket engine test facilities
* Designed hypersonic wind tunnel and heat transfer facilities
* Supplied rocket motor segment rings for PSLV
.

by the context of your article then only US can be called as the indigenous manufacturer of airplane since they were the one to fly a plane at first and only the Chinese can be considered as the indigenous manufacturer of missiles..
every country that produces something indigenously will at a point copy or consider the design or tech that is being used earlier if available. the same may be true in this case too. we did R&D and have developed it and now fully Indian bulit missiles are in our stockpile..

 

[navtrek]

Indians have been barging about how indigenous indian missile technology is while Pak's is just copy of everything. Infact both india and pak have no indigenous missile technology. Without foreigner input both countries program are non existent.

If u clearly read the post u have posted u will understand the distinction and find the answer for the question u asked.

India's weapons program is a spin off from the development of space science. Where as the same is not true in case of Pakistan.

I don't have to say abt the ready made missiles from North Korea

And all this help from the west is in the field of Space science except that of Russia.

In the end discussion abt the topic will never end but the reality is seen in the very post u have posted. Deciding on what is Indigenous and not is up to the individual. They are the best to judge by themselves.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

1. Link of the article please.. I don't know why but most of the article you post lacks any links..

The link is provided already.

2. Nobody in the world is going to invent everything on its own from scratch. Help is always taken to master the Tech.

What? the amount of R&D done in west, america, russia, even china can not be even comparable with india. India products from start to finish are foreigner technology assembled in india with a indian name. When America starts it new product it is usually 100% American like B-2.

3. Key thing is that a nation should have local manufacturing for all the components so that it does not need to depend on other country in War-times. Over the years, India has built local manufacturing capabilities , hence indigenous..

Hasnt pakistan done the same with its missiles tanks etc? so are they also indigenous just because they are built in pakistan? no. Same applies to indian products. without foreigner input of technology indian products are non existent.

4. India is now capitalizing on know-how gained over the years to develop more advanced technologies now.

rrrrrrrrrwrong.

5. India has always bought the technology and scientist learned it. it never needed intelligence help to steal any Tech Blue prints...

I have already given you the credible neutral source which mentions india got its hands of Scout missiles blueprints and technical know how and copied it with foreigner assistance.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

by the context of your article then only US can be called as the indigenous manufacturer of airplane since they were the one to fly a plane at first and only the Chinese can be considered as the indigenous manufacturer of missiles..
every country that produces something indigenously will at a point copy or consider the design or tech that is being used earlier if available. the same may be true in this case too. we did R&D and have developed it and now fully Indian bulit missiles are in our stockpile..

i didn't think that you Pakistanis will be this much desperate about the development of our country...
good work India..
Jai Hind!

your logic is flawed 100%! Jai hind? lol

America and Russia are indeed the only country that indigenously develop their domestic version products on their own with little as 0.1-0.9% of assistance from foreigners and in most of the cases zero assistance from foreigners. Europeans usually develop products in joint ventures with their own technologies. For instance. If Britain is given its share in a EuroFighter they will produce it with their own R&D and wont go across the world for shopping for the systems it needs.

 

[footmarks]

The first stage of the Scout then became the first stage of India's first large ballistic missile, the Agni-I. The Agni-I's second stage was liquid-fueled, and was based on a surface-to-air missile called the SA-2 that India bought from Russia.
France also helped India master liquid-fuel technology by selling India the technology used to build the "Viking" engine used on the Ariane space launcher. India calls its version the "Vikas." The Agni also needed a guidance system. The German Space Agency obliged with a long tutorial in rocket guidance, which allowed India to develop a guidance system and learn how to produce its components (gyroscopes, accelerometers and so forth). The German Space Agency also tested a model of the first stage of the SLV-3 in one of its wind tunnels in Cologne and helped India build its own rocket test facilities. Germany also trained Indians in how to make composite materials.

Wow, what a logic!
now this means, if I go to US for doing my engineering or persuing MBA and come back to erect a company which later become one of the world's leading company - BS, I will be called a copier who learnt everything from US college, and my company will be called an american company with indian name, german engineers, french machinary and soviet managers!

Mister, there is a difference in learning mechanics, fluid dynamics and rocket science & then applying the knowledge to make rockets- and just buying a rocket and doing paint work and new nomenclature. And if, only if,you would have been smart enough to figure out that difference, you would have had your own indegenous satellites in orbit, put there by your own rockets.

 

[jbond197]

What? the amount of R&D done in west, america, russia, even china can not be even comparable with india. India products from start to finish are foreigner technology assembled in india with a indian name. When America starts it new product it is usually 100% American like B-2.

give a credible source of your claim that all Indian weapons/products are just assembled in India. India took help and I think Russians helped us the most in most of our tech programs..And please don't teach us about Chinese R&D as everybody here knows what is the truth of their R&D. The same testimony you provided talks about Nasa's co-operation with China as well..

Hasn't pakistan done the same with its missiles tanks etc? so are they also indigenous just because they are built in pakistan? no. Same applies to indian products. without foreigner input of technology indian products are non existent.

if pakistan has anything which it developed taking chinese tech inputs and developed on its own, if it does not need to depend on China to supply all the parts then you can also claim it to be indigenous. Also without foreigner inputs/reverse engineering of technologies, chineses and hence pakistani products are also non existent.

I have already given you the credible neutral source which mentions india got its hands of Scout missiles blueprints and technical know how and copied it with foreigner assistance

Ignoring the fact that since when we have started taking a testimony as credible source, I read the testimony of Mr. Gary Milhollin again and it says.
"
In 1965, the Indian government asked NASA for design information about the Scout. The request should have raised some eyebrows. It came from the head of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. Nevertheless, NASA obligingly supplied the information.
"

This is how as per him, scout missile design information was provided, so it was asked for and US provided it, not something like, we needed to spy around to steal the design info like some other countries are frequently charged of doing.
Devote some time and you will find thousand of testimonies and reports of those Blue-print stealing by few nations.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Wow, what a logic!
now this means, if I go to US for doing my engineering or persuing MBA and come back to erect a company which later become one of the world's leading company - BS, I will be called a copier who learnt everything from US college, and my company will be called an american company with indian name, german engineers, french machinary and soviet managers!

Mister, there is a difference in learning mechanics, fluid dynamics and rocket science & then applying the knowledge to make rockets- and just buying a rocket and doing paint work and new nomenclature. And if, only if,you would have been smart enough to figure out that difference, you would have had your own indegenous satellites in orbit, put there by your own rockets.

Why are you indians after reading this thread coming up with the most ridiculous logic? Your analogy is 100% flawed and does not make any sense with the topic.
Indian scientist did not just study abroad and came back and developed everything indigenously! This is a myth that run across every indian minds who bloodily believe all their technologies are indigenous.

From start to finish Agni had more foreigner input infact more then 90% then india because india simply lacks the technical ability to develop anything on its own and even after just "studying" aboard.

Agni platform is based on Scout missile and SA-2 while the internal systems are all provided by Europeans.

btw this is not my logic is a documented fact.

 

[agni - kalam]

regarding the american articles,
this is what Dr.Kalam says in his book WINGS OF FIRE





"Gary Milhollin, a so-called specialist in missiles and warhead
technologies, had made a claim in The WallStreet Journal that India had
made Agni with the help of West Germany. I had a hearty laugh reading
that the German Aerospace Research Establishment(DLR) had
developed Agni’s guidance system, the first-stage rocket ,and a composite
nosecone,and that the aerodynamic model of Agni was tested in the
DLR windt unnel.
An immediate denial came from the DLR, who in
turn speculated that France had supplied the Agni guidance electronics.


American Senator Jeff Bingaman even went to the extent of suggesting
that I pickedup everything needed for Agni during my four-monthstay
at Wallop’s Island in 1962.

The fact that I was in Wallop’s Island more
than 25 years ago and at that time the technology used in Agni did not
exist even in the United States was not mentioned.




In today’s world, technological backwardness leads to subjugation.

Can we all owe our freedom to be compromised on this account?

It is our
bounden duty to guarantee the security and integrity of our nation against
this threat.
Should we not uphold the mandate bequeathed to us by our
forefathers who fought for the liberation of our country from imperialism?

Only when we are technologically self-reliant will we able to fulfill their
dream."

 

[footmarks]

Why are you indians after reading this thread coming up with the most ridiculous logic? Your analogy is 100% flawed and does not make any sense with the topic.
Indian scientist did not just study abroad and came back and developed everything indigenously! This is a myth that run across every indian minds who bloodily believe all their technologies are indigenous.

From start to finish Agni had more foreigner input infact more then 90% then india because india simply lacks the technical ability to develop anything on its own and even after just "studying" aboard.

Agni platform is based on Scout missile and SA-2 while the internal systems are all provided by Europeans.

btw this is not my logic is a documented fact.

This is a myth that run across every Pakistani minds who bloodily believe india simply lacks the technical ability to develop anything on its own and even after just "studying" aboard.

BTW, every single rocket in modern era is based on German V-2 rockets developed during WW-II, which in turn is based on Newton's Third law of motion primarily.
And, this is not my logic is a documented fact.

Now, it is true that whatever I had written above is '"Based" on your previous post, but still not a carbon copy of it. You can now understand (hopefully) what is the difference between something being "based" on some previous done work and something being just a copy and paint work.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

regarding the american articles,
this is what Dr.Kalam says in his book WINGS OF FIRE





"Gary Milhollin, a so-called specialist in missiles and warhead
technologies, had made a claim in The WallStreet Journal that India had
made Agni with the help of West Germany. I had a hearty laugh reading
that the German Aerospace Research Establishment(DLR) had
developed Agni’s guidance system, the first-stage rocket ,and a composite
nosecone,and that the aerodynamic model of Agni was tested in the
DLR windt unnel.
An immediate denial came from the DLR, who in
turn speculated that France had supplied the Agni guidance electronics.


American Senator Jeff Bingaman even went to the extent of suggesting
that I pickedup everything needed for Agni during my four-monthstay
at Wallop’s Island in 1962.

The fact that I was in Wallop’s Island more
than 25 years ago and at that time the technology used in Agni did not
exist even in the United States was not mentioned.




In today’s world, technological backwardness leads to subjugation.

Can we all owe our freedom to be compromised on this account?

It is our
bounden duty to guarantee the security and integrity of our nation against
this threat.
Should we not uphold the mandate bequeathed to us by our
forefathers who fought for the liberation of our country from imperialism?

Only when we are technologically self-reliant will we able to fulfill their
dream."

Kalam is a liar of highest order lol.

Indian officials boast that all of its missiles are indigenously developed. After the successful test of the Agni-II, Dr. Kalam was quoted as saying: "I don't have a partner in the Atlantic or beyond the Indian Ocean to help me," and as claiming that the Agni is "less than 10 percent" imported. However, India's missiles have all been developed with extensive outside aid. The United States has provided assistance recently. American companies Digital Equipment Corp. and International Business Machines (IBM) both supplied the Indian Institute of Science with supercomputers capable of designing nuclear weapons and missiles, and Viewlogic Systems Inc. of Marlborough, Massachusetts sold computer software to an Indian missile manufacturer.


Agni was developed over the course of decades. According to Kalam only 10% of Agni is foreigner technology. Just alone Scout missile first stage is more then"10%" of foreigner input.


Missile Helpers

India did not build its missiles alone. The world's leading rocket producers gave essential help in research, development, and manufacture.

France

* Licensed production of sounding rockets in India
* Supplied the liquid-fuel Viking rocket engine, now the "Vikas" engine of the PSLV second stage
* Tested Indian-produced Vikas engine in France

Germany

* Delivered measurement and calibration equipment to ISRO laboratories
* Trained Indians in high-altitude tests of rocket motors and in glass and carbon fiber composites for rocket engine housings, nozzles and nose cones
* Designed high-altitude rocket test facilities
* Conducted wind tunnel tests for SLV-3 rocket
* Developed radio frequency interferometer for rocket guidance
* Developed computers for rocket payload guidance based on U.S. microprocessor
* Supplied documentation for a filament-winding machine to make rocket engine nozzles and housings
* Helped build Vikas rocket engine test facilities
* Designed hypersonic wind tunnel and heat transfer facilities
* Supplied rocket motor segment rings for PSLV

Russia

* Supplied surface-to-air missiles which became the models for the Prithvi missile and the second stage of the Agni medium-range missile
* Sold seven cryogenic rocket engines

United Kingdom

* Supplied components for Imarat Research Center, home to the Agni missile
* Supplied magnetrons for radar guidance and detonation systems to Defense Research and Development Laboratory

United States

* Launched U.S.-built rockets from Thumba test range
* Trained Dr. Abdul Kalam, designer of the Agni
* Introduced India to the Scout rocket, the model for the SLV-3 rocket and the Agni first stage
* Sent technical reports on the Scout rocket to Homi Bhabha, the head of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission
* Sold equipment that can simulate vibrations on a warhead

 

[Myth_buster_1]

This is a myth that run across every Pakistani minds who bloodily believe india simply lacks the technical ability to develop anything on its own and even after just "studying" aboard.

BTW, every single rocket in modern era is based on German V-2 rockets developed during WW-II, which in turn is based on Newton's Third law of motion primarily.
And, this is not my logic is a documented fact.

Now, it is true that whatever I had written above is '"Based" on your previous post, but still not a carbon copy of it. You can now understand (hopefully) what is the difference between something being "based" on some previous done work and something being just a copy and paint work.

Your face saving post has already been refuted with my credible sources and no need to reply any further to your absurd post.
So Delta Rockets are based on V-2 rockets? American Rocket technology is not indigenous? seriously my thread and posts have left you guys brainless with ridiculous come backs.

 

[Areesh]

Great work Growler. So much for the indigenous missle program of India.

 

[footmarks]

Your face saving post has already been refuted with my credible sources and no need to reply any further to your absurd post.
So Delta Rockets are based on V-2 rockets? American Rocket technology is not indigenous? seriously my thread and posts have left you guys brainless with ridiculous come backs.

And who is the judge?You?

All rockets basically work on the same principle and have jet engines in them, which were first used in V-2 rockets. Thus, by your own logic, even Delta rockets are based on V-2. Try to refute that, and you will negate your own logic. Any technological innovation can be done only once, but Indegenous development means that though the technology exists already, you have devised your own ways to make it and use it.

BTW, I may not agree with you, its a personal choice. I expect that you not get personal with someone who dont agree with your POV.
Try to convince me if you can, rather than commenting on brain power of others, thereby showing your lack of the same altogether.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

And who is the judge?You?

All rockets basically work on the same principle and have jet engines in them, which were first used in V-2 rockets. Thus, by your own logic, even Delta rockets are based on V-2. Try to refute that, and you will negate your own logic. Any technological innovation can be done only once, but Indegenous development means that though the technology exists already, you have devised your own ways to make it and use it.

BTW, I may not agree with you, its a personal choice. I expect that you not get personal with someone who dont agree with your POV.
Try to convince me if you can, rather than commenting on brain power of others, thereby showing your lack of the same altogether.

Man, their is seriously no point of talking about the same thing over and over again. I have already answered your point.
In simple words..
India did not Develop Agni all on its own. The first stage is american Scout missile the 2nd stage is modified SA-2 with russian assistance etc and internal systems are western technology. without their assistance Agni would be non existence. I have already said that Pak too does not have the capability to develop Missiles on its own.
Go to this LINK.
Do some searching on that site and you will know what i am talking about.
As for V-2. Its the same case as ME-262. Both projects were a know how to built and after that era Both Soviet Europe America went on their own way of demonstrating their technologies. They all may have same functions but the technologies are different.
F-22 has no similarities with Me-262 other then the fact both are fighter jets. Now today when Americans develop rockets they dont look back at V-2 Rockets and develop their own rockets based on that technology.