India shelves plan to expand French submarine order after Scorpene data breach

[Echo_419]

Let's keep it straight , if we are good with 6 Scorpenes, we will be good with 12. But if there is a problem , do not cancel the follow on , cancel all 6. Maybe arrange for the Scorpene built to be transported back to DCNS ? It should be straight , if there is a problem , DCNS should be kept away , but if we are willing to use the first 6 , rest all will also be very fine , if not then withdraw the P75I RFI from DCNS. Simple.

You high?

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

You high?

Straight talk , if we are ready for 6. We are ready for more.

If we aren't wanting more , we don't need these 6 too.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@PARIKRAMA

The main question is what will happen to the NEW second line for submarines at MDL

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA

The main question is what will happen to the NEW second line for submarines at MDL

Either we order more scorpene to be made in second line so that by last submarine from first line comes out, the second line will be in a position to churn out multiple sub produced parallel within max 2years implying by 2022-23.

Or else we must start urgent construction of indigenous SSK but thats not ready yet .. and P75I is not ready also. Thus other than ordering more scorpene we don't have any option. Or we have to keep the second line in MDL idle doing nothing and wasting time and money.

 

[zebra7]

The internal plan of Indian navy for 2030 clearly states that IN will have a fleet of 30 SSKs out of which 24 will be outright modern submarines.

The line mix planned was initially
P 75- 6 subs
P 75I - 6 Subs
Indigenous SSK - 12 subs.

Below are few excerpts from Indian Navy dox.

View attachment 330934

looking at the present status of P75I and Indigenous SSK design being not finalised, the proposal has changed to

P75 - 6+3+3 ~ 9-12
P75I - 6+3+3~ 6-12
indigenous SSK - 3+3+3+3~ 3-6~9-12

The reasoning for 10-12 submarine order point is below

View attachment 330937


View attachment 330945
Some serious points

• There are serious question raised recently in April 2016 when all this talk started going very serious.
• First thing, the indigenous designed SSK needs to be in one of the two lines made for submarines in India.
• As of now only MDL has two lines available out of which second assembling line has parallel capacity to produce 5 submarines all at once.
• There is no other public or private sector which has been identified as of now by MOD/GOI whom it has indicated to go for such a technology absorption as no new tender and order has been given till date
• This is the tale tell sign of SSK not matured enough for an urgent need for a new line space nor P75I being close to tender process.

Now why more scorpenes (form the same IN dox)

• Scorpene submarine is constructed by joining five sections.
• The construction process starts with the fabrication of ring frames, followed by plate forming.
• Further, they are assembled into sub sections which in turn form the 5 major sections of the submarine.
• While the sections are being manufactured, a parallel activity of outfitting of cradles with equipment is progressed.
• Thereafter, the cradles are shipped inside the sections.
• Further, the sections are lowered onto the submarine launch pontoon in dry dock followed by the boot together which is the joining of the last two sections completing the submarine construction.
• A schematic representation of the same and photographs of cardinal activities are given below

View attachment 330953

View attachment 330954
View attachment 330955

• On completion of the above process of construction, the submarine is launched and undergoes STW inspections, harbour trials of various systems, followed by sea trials.
• On an average, it takes about 6 years (pie chart highlighting the duration placed below) for the whole process to complete which justifies the present status of the Project 75 where the first submarine is under preparation for sea trials.
• The second submarine is fully integrated and is undergoing preparation for launch.
• The remaining 4 submarines are at various stages of structural outfitting

Now what we learned and i quote

• MDL and Naval personnel have gained tremendous knowledge and expertise in the various stringent standards applicable for welding processes, geometrical measurements, welding inspection including NDT (non destructive testing) procedures and acceptance/rejection criteria.
• Extensive welder qualification in Major Metal Arc Welding processes to build pressure hull structures was also undertaken during the course of the project which added to the technical skills of the MDL workforce.
• Another important aspect which facilitated training of personnel in the private sector industries was during the outsourcing of a variety of jobs related to submarine construction.
• We have better command now to critically use the technologies and develop superior construction philosophy to suit our shipyards and manpower.
• Some of the critical items where significant progress in indigenization has been made are the weld consumables, ventilation coamings, RO plant, cables, anechoic tiles, GRP casing panels, main batteries etc.
• Certain equipment like thrust block, hydraulic blocks, hydraulic plungers for hydroplanes etc the equipment was imported from OEMs in raw form but was machined in India through identified companies.
• During the course of the indigenization process, it was also observed that some of the imported material which were procured from foreign firms could be sourced with ease from within India.
• In this phase of indigenization experience, we were able to analyze the entire plethora of material required for submarine construction and conclude that setting up production facilities for certain material may not be cost beneficial.
• For example, indigenization of steel. The quantum of infrastructure and research development required for producing a specific micro alloy steel like HLES 80 used for scorpenes is going to be phenomenal considering the fact that an entire facility needs to be set up for manufacture of a specific grade of steel.

Thus, these are some of the simple points which i can publicly quote here. The pros outweighs the cons..

I pasted a figure in the scorpene leak thread

https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-46#post-8631675

If you look closely you will understand what its showing and why IN is clear about their plan and what they are trying to do.

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Nilgiri @Vergennes @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @BON PLAN @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED

Parikrama, Seriously Pls start your own Defense Blog So that people could get some real stuff rather than B.S Defense Opera from idiots experts.

 

[BON PLAN]

India has the technology, expertise and technical know-how to build a nuclear submarine. Couldn't they use that expertise to design and build an SSK indigenously for the P75I instead of going for a foreign sub

Maybe, but what kind of SSN? Noisy or quieter? for 4 weeks cruise or 8 weeks? with what kind of radar suite? ....

You imagine well if it was the case the P75I project doesn't even exist.

We could always use some help from Russians or Israelis when it comes to stealth. We even started building the Scorpenes, so probably we could use that knowledge and expertise as well.

Israel don"t built its own subarines ! it's german ones.

 

[Papa Dragon]

Maybe, but what kind of SSN? Noisy or quieter? for 4 weeks cruise or 8 weeks? with what kind of radar suite? ....

You imagine well if it was the case the P75I project doesn't even exist.


Israel don"t built its own subarines ! it's german ones.

I never said Israel builds it's own subs. India has the possibility to collaborate with Russians and Israelis for design and development of certain sub systems and if the Arihant and Arindham are able to meet IN's requirements, IN would certainly encourage indigenous subs as they are the only department among the three armed forces which induct indigenous stuff on a large scale.

 

[Ali Zadi]

This all seems to be speculation, if India operates 5-6-7 subs of one kind they can certainly operate 3-4 more it wont make a difference. But changing the systems to be compatible for a differnt new XYZ subs will take further effort/testing/funding.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Either we order more scorpene to be made in second line so that by last submarine from first line comes out, the second line will be in a position to churn out multiple sub produced parallel within max 2years implying by 2022-23.

Or else we must start urgent construction of indigenous SSK but thats not ready yet .. and P75I is not ready also. Thus other than ordering more scorpene we don't have any option. Or we have to keep the second line in MDL idle doing nothing and wasting time and money.

Without any major customization- How beneficial do you think It would be- Navy is in bad position- 75I is delayed and there too options are limited- I suppose this leak should be used as an opportunity to get some barracuda techs transferred on Scorpene- like propulsion and BMS etc- and let Barracuda SSK version participate in 75I as to cancel single vendor situation-

 

[R!CK]

@PARIKRAMA

The main question is what will happen to the NEW second line for submarines at MDL

Personally, I think there is a possibility to have a few refinements on follow-on scorpenes, just to be on the safe side. The navy is not going to let the yard go idle and lose the continuity in production. Albeit with a slight delay, a slightly modified version of scorpene could be ordered eventually. This could take a little longer to finalize than earlier planned but follow-on order is guaranteed unless the data lost is quite significant, which I doubt.

P75I is a whole different set of requirements and is no substitute for P75 follow-ons and there is little to no chance for P76(Indigenous SSK project) to be taken up before P75I. As per plan, the tech transfer and experience from P75 and P75I is required to ensure P76 won't face too many hurdles.

Good Day!

 

[Skull and Bones]

@PARIKRAMA My Facebook page has an audience of 2.8 million, if you ever consider starting your own blog in Defense, I can get you many readers.

Please contact me if you're interested.

 

[BON PLAN]

I never said Israel builds it's own subs. India has the possibility to collaborate with Russians and Israelis for design and development of certain sub systems and if the Arihant and Arindham are able to meet IN's requirements, IN would certainly encourage indigenous subs as they are the only department among the three armed forces which induct indigenous stuff on a large scale.

What can Israel brings to you on sub tech? surface radar? maybe. No sonar, no silence tech, no engineering expertise as they don't produce it.
Russian yes, but it's no more edge tech (see how late is the Yasen sub. See the failure of Lada project). Better to work with german, french or japan.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What can Israel brings to you on sub tech? surface radar? maybe. No sonar, no silence tech, no engineering expertise as they don't produce it.
Russian yes, but it's no more edge tech (see how late is the Yasen sub. See the failure of Lada project). Better to work with german, french or japan.

Russia won't offer either Borei tech or Yasen tech or even Kalina sub tech..
It's not so easy for any transfer and on top unless the tech is next generation, benefits to SSBN/SSN/SSKs is nil. We all have to understand the point of second sub line is for getting adequate technology and skill set to complete the indigenous projects

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@PARIKRAMA My Facebook page has an audience of 2.8 million, if you ever consider starting your own blog in Defense, I can get you many readers.

Please contact me if you're interested.

What is your facebook Page ; please tell us so we can read it

 

[proud_indian]

Russia won't offer either Borei tech or Yasen tech or even Kalina sub tech..
It's not so easy for any transfer and on top unless the tech is next generation, benefits to SSBN/SSN/SSKs is nil. We all have to understand the point of second sub line is for getting adequate technology and skill set to complete the indigenous projects

So after all those years producing U209, Scorpene and Indigenous INS Arihant we are still not able to build our own indigenous SSK.
What technologies do we expect to have in Project 75I that we don't already possess? We were supposed to make Scorpenes under 100% tech transfer so I guess we must have all the critical manufacturing technologies as of now.
Are you sure we will be able to do the same after one more foreign procurement?