India set to sign $2.4bn Mirage deal with France Rajat Pandit

[indian dream]

I think instead of upgrading mirages, we can go for more su-30s

 

[Geronimo2011]

Just some thoughts

1. This deal includes technology transfer and I am sure there is a cost to that
2. The recent price of a Su 30 MKI was close to 90 million. Compared to that this doesnt seem that way off looking at this being touted as almost creating a new plane
3. Do not forget that extending the life of Mirages by 20 years, allows India to leverage the existing support infrastructure like maintenance bays, training, skilled manpower etc specific to Mirages for that much longer. So this 2.4 billion is not only extending the life of the 52 planes but also the life of all the infrastructure that has been built around those planes in last 20+ years
4. The last but not the least, its not reported yet what the contents of this upgrade are.. In my view, next few days will demonstrate that..

 

[tallboy123]

hmmm
Americans got C-17,C_130,P8i,harpoons ,javelin,etc,etc..

Russia-->FGFA,MTA,Akula sub,Su-30's...

Gripen--->nothing,but it didn't come to shortlist..

French-->scorpene,Engine JV... reactors, and now regarding Aircrafts they got Mirage Upgrade...

European(UK,Germany,Italy,Spain)---->Nothing big....But made it to Shortlist....So they may i said MAY get MMRCA...

THings are so unpredictable uffff

 

[notsuperstitious]

Comparison of mirages with Chinese planes will be valid when Chinese planes are used in a war.

Until then, laugh all you can. I don't understand why you complain so much when you know we are making mistakes, isn't it good for you?

And keep it civil, calling other nations loser etc is not allowed here. In any case calling entire nations loser on the internet is super cowardly.

 

[Markus]

dude, this deal is being laughed by all Chinese members on Chinese military forums. this is not the case for the C-17 deal. we believe you guys got fooled by yanks, the C-17 is overpriced, but we still believe it gives you something unprecedented in your military history and thus probably worth the $.

but for the $48 million each upgrade deal, dude, we are questioning whether this is the biggest corruption case in your military history -- how much kick back for each?

Mirage 2000 is a dead fighter, only loser nations use it (yes, france is a loser). paying $48 million for upgrading one is beyond imagination.

All military information do not get leaked out.

How do you know the exact points that this upgrade incorporates OR if there is any other secret deal?

Even if there is nothing extraordinary that we will get with this deal and we are just wasting money over this, so be it. We are used to it.

 

[blood]

dude, let's just face it: China has much much much more money, if you want to play this "we pay you more, cut your tie with them" game, you are not qualified yet.

simple fact: our economy is 4 times as big as yours, our foreign reserve is about 3 trillion USD.

i know that your economy is a lot bigger than our's , but let me tell you another simple fact that most of the chinese product's which we get in our indian market's are of cheap quality with just six months life period, i have heard many people in the western countrie's also say similar thing's.whenever an umberella or a grinder dosen't work they say "maybe you got it from china or taiwan".even though countrie's like france have smaller economy but thier quality and technology is muc superior than your's.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why is everyone criticising the huge cost?- yes $1-3 million per MICA is a lot of money (infect it is mind-boggling when you actually think about it!) but from a business sense it isn't that foolish- given the average cost of modern 4th gen fighters (sorry PAF F-7 don't count) is in the high TENS of millions (F-16=$25 mill+, MKI= $40-50 mill+, EFT=~100 mill) and given these aren't going to just be fired off when ever but surely only in real cases in anger against an opponent so if you paying the extra to make sure you hit the target first time with one shot taking down TENS of millions it adds up right?

 

[sancho]

I can't help wondering if this Indian rapid spending to gain rough parity with China's ramping up of defence spending is a good idea.

China's expansion is focused toward several concrete goals, such as winning a confrontation over the Taiwan straits, maintaining the balance of power on the Korean peninsular, control of the China seas south and east, and working towards blue water power projection to protect its commerce towards Malacca straits and beyond.

Besides the fact that this upgrade has nothing to do with military build up, or necessarily on China, but with modernisation of the fighter fleet during their normal lifecycle, why do you think India must have different reasons than China has?

India has a focus on wining confrontations around Indias costlines as well as China has. That's why IN is building up it's capablities, be it with new surveillance aircrafts, vessels, or subs. Not any different to what China aims, or do isn't it? Aren't both countries developing even new carriers, to protect their sea lanes?

China started building up of forces and infrastructure alongside Indian borders, India reacted on it with similar efforts. Surprising? I don't think so.

China is modernising it's fighter fleet with modern 4th to 5th gen fighters, just like India is doing as well.

As you can see, India is not doing anything special here! We have similar aims (at our areas of interest) like China has and both countries acknowledges that the other has to be taken seriously, otherwise China wouldn't need to build up force on the western borders and we wouldn't aim higher with the deterrence at longer distances.

 

[dbc]

Why is everyone criticising the huge cost?- yes $1-3 million per MICA is a lot of money (infect it is mind-boggling when you actually think about it!) but from a business sense it isn't that foolish- given the average cost of modern 4th gen fighters (sorry PAF F-7 don't count) is in the high TENS of millions (F-16=$25 mill+, MKI= $40-50 mill+, EFT=~100 mill) and given these aren't going to just be fired off when ever but surely only in real cases in anger against an opponent so if you paying the extra to make sure you hit the target first time with one shot taking down TENS of millions it adds up right?

At 4X the cost of better / comparable battle proven missiles? It is outrageously wasteful and irresponsible.

 

[Archie]

But your views contradict the now frequent bluster from your military establishment including your head of defense who cited China as India's number one threat.




India has always enjoyed conventional and numerical superiority over Pakistan. This has failed to deter Pakistan, as a matter of fact greater asymmetry has encouraged Pakistan to become even more reckless and adopt increasingly unconventional means to redress the balance. So in my view the answer is a big 'NO' finding a mutually acceptable solution to Kashmir and lasting peace with Pakistan is the only viable solution.

What is mutual solution may i ask
Is it bowing down to a terrorist state with 1/8th the GDP and 1/7th the population than urs
India will not sign on a peace agreement which is not on its own terms and neither will Pak
Whatever Manimohan Singh says , but it will be a political suiside for any government of India , if they give any sort of concession to PAK

As far as i know , THERE is still a huge disagreement within the Airforce regarding upgrade of Mirage 2000
India acquired around 40 Mirage 2000 between 1986-88 , while another 13 were acquired in 2003
After the upgrade Mirage 2000 would be able to serve till 2030
Otherwise IAF would have to retire them by 2020-22
Same is the case with IAF jaguar fleet , becoz of trouble with engine Upgrade IAF has decided that it will carry out avionics upgrade of only 57-60 Aircrafts which were Inducted after yr 1999 And retire the remaining 80 odd jaguars between 2017-22

As per my sources there is some trouble brewing up regarding these upgrades , While ACM is adament that he wants these aircrafts to be upgraded , certain other section of Airforce feel that Number of mmrca should be increased
Many feel that instead of spending 2.4 Billion on upgrade of 52 Mirage 2000 and spending 1.6 Billion on upgrade of 100 Jaguars , it would be better to acquire 40 more mmrca and spend remaining 600 Million USD on the avionics upgrade of 57 Jaguars

 

[Archie]

The french are not milking you guys.. they are carving you up with this deal..
Moi Moi expensivo..

That should explain why THE CANCELLED French Avionics and weapons deal for first 50 JFART 17 was more than the cost of the first 50 JFART 17

 

[sancho]

Now that the deal has inflated to a $2.4 billion deal from $2.1 billion, I think the cost of MICA might be even more, somewhere around $2 million per missile. That's outrageously expensive.

Or we take the article as a base which says:

This is also now going to CCS for approval. Another big contract, which was being progressed simultaneously, for around 450 MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems to arm the upgraded Mirages is also in the final stages now," said a source.

So these figures has nothing to do with weapons deal, which gets us to an interesting questions! IF the figures in the article are correct and the price even increased to earlier expectations, what is the reason for it?
The French making it more costly for the same stuff, which would be stupid from their side and make us look not very good in bargaining. Or did we now get something more, that the French refused to provide before?

European(UK,Germany,Italy,Spain)---->Nothing big

UK - BAE Hawk trainer, M777 howitzers, AW 101 VVIP helicopters, consultancy at IAC2, still best choice in the artillery competition and for most likely will supply Asraam for Jags, while backed out in the engine competition

Italy - tankers, consultancy at IAC1

Germany/EADS- won LUH and tanker competition, but we didn't sealed the deals, U209 upgrade on the list, as well as the procurement of new U214, several involvements in Tejas, or DRDO AWACS and not to forget Dhruv and Arjun.

Spain EADS CASA - C295 for BSF, but not sure if the deal is fixed, there were some issues.


We are spreading the deals widely!

 

[Ghoster]

dude, this deal is being laughed by all Chinese members on Chinese military forums. this is not the case for the C-17 deal. we believe you guys got fooled by yanks, the C-17 is overpriced, but we still believe it gives you something unprecedented in your military history and thus probably worth the $.

but for the $48 million each upgrade deal, dude, we are questioning whether this is the biggest corruption case in your military history -- how much kick back for each?

Mirage 2000 is a dead fighter, only loser nations use it (yes, france is a loser). paying $48 million for upgrading one is beyond imagination.

WHO F@KN CARES

 

[xataxsata]

But your views contradict the now frequent bluster from your military establishment including your head of defense who cited China as India's number one threat.

That's because these types of statements fuels public anger and force govt. to take the matter seriously and act. After all our infrastructure and modernization are long avoided.

India has always enjoyed conventional and numerical superiority over Pakistan. This has failed to deter Pakistan, as a matter of fact greater asymmetry has encouraged Pakistan to become even more reckless and adopt increasingly unconventional means to redress the balance. So in my view the answer is a big 'NO' finding a mutually acceptable solution to Kashmir and lasting peace with Pakistan is the only viable solution.

That's because no govt. have acted as it should they have never go ahead and divided pakistan or its military capabilties they always satisfied by stoping them at LOC or ceasefire.

All types of pakistanis don't have India its just some punjabi sunnis.

I know with nukes war is not an option but there are other options like:

- Full support of libration movements

- Stopping of water at the peak of sowing season (Pakistan's economy revolves around agriculture + textiles + meat + leather no water means no agriculture, no cotton for textiles, no cattle feed for animals means no meat/leather)

- Breaking of all types of economic, cultural, social relations.

- Not allowing any plane (No matter its of pak company or Luftansa) ship to use Indian air/water space.

- Long and continued campaign in international arena.

- Overt/covert actions by RAW.

 

[WHITESMOKE]

Wow! it has just opened up my eyes to see that how much Chinese and Pakistani friends care about our tax payers money..