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India seals Rs 70,000 crores missile deal with Russia : MOD sources

I think both have equal importance...and the government is trying hard to close both the deals...but this went through first!!


Can't say for sure, our current PMO is business oriented one
We promised a lot till now , didn't we ?

Let's see how many gets delivered .
I am pinning my hopes on DM Parrikar.
 
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That is a No Brainer.

1. Rafale is Offensive platform.

2. S400 is Defensive platform.

3. Offence is the best defence.

Incorrect, S-400 is a very offensive system, far more effective than the Rafale ever can be in swatting birds out of the air, a single regiment based on the border can cover plenty of Pak or TAR and enforce a no fly zone without ever crossing the border. It can cause havoc Rafale can't begin to do and all it takes is a switch of the key. 3 full scale regiments with 4 battalions each facing Pak pretty much makes a significant part of their AF redundant. Rafale is a waste of money, a totally wasteful purchase, add more MKI instead.
 
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Incorrect, S-400 is a very offensive system, far more effective than the Rafale ever can be in swatting birds out of the air, a single regiment based on the border can cover plenty of Pak or TAR and enforce a no fly zone without ever crossing the border. It can cause havoc Rafale can't begin to do and all it takes is a switch of the key. 3 full scale regiments with 4 battalions each facing Pak pretty much makes a significant part of their AF redundant. Rafale is a waste of money, a totally wasteful purchase, add more MKI instead.

We can secure our skies, but to destroy targets we need good offensive fighters too..

Su 30 mki , S 400 do some what overlapping role of air dominance/ denial

for bombing targets , we need good A2G fighter.

So where are we lacking ? What's our priority ?

If S400 can take care Chinese 5 th generation aircrafts , it's a very good purchase.,
otherwise even that is not going to be a triumph card
 
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Can't say for sure, our current PMO is business oriented one
We promised a lot till now , didn't we ?

Let's see how many gets delivered .
I am pinning my hopes on DM Parrikar.
Only thing I can say is have patience and give em time!!
 
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Incorrect, S-400 is a very offensive system, far more effective than the Rafale ever can be in swatting birds out of the air, a single regiment based on the border can cover plenty of Pak or TAR and enforce a no fly zone without ever crossing the border. It can cause havoc Rafale can't begin to do and all it takes is a switch of the key. 3 full scale regiments with 4 battalions each facing Pak pretty much makes a significant part of their AF redundant. Rafale is a waste of money, a totally wasteful purchase, add more MKI instead.

That is just Stupid.

1. S400 and rafale can both clear the sky, but Rafale can also drop bombs on the enemy. Nukes or regular.

2. S400 has limited missiles, Rafale potentially has unlimited bombs, limited only by our supply chain and stock.

3. All Radar's can be jammed including those of S400 and then they just become sitting ducks waiting to be taken out. Not easy, but not impossible either. Rafale OTOH is nimble enough to quickly move out of the jamming range and regroup and attack.

4. If ABM were the solutions for all problems, AF will cease to exist. ABM are only secondary line of defence, the primary will always be Air Force.
 
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That is just Stupid.

1. S400 and rafale can both clear the sky, but Rafale can also drop bombs on the enemy. Nukes or regular.

2. S400 has limited missiles, Rafale potentially has unlimited bombs, limited only by our supply chain and stock.

3. All Radar's can be jammed including those of S400 and then they just become sitting ducks waiting to be taken out. Not easy, but not impossible either. Rafale OTOH is nimble enough to quickly move out of the jamming range and regroup and attack.

4. If ABM were the solutions for all problems, AF will cease to exist. ABM are only secondary line of defence, the primary will always be Air Force.

What garbage, Rafale in the paltry numbers of 36 being acquired have no added value. In the Indian context most of its French weapons are far too expensive for the number of targets we face. A single full regiment of S-400 has upwards of 256 missiles in ready to fire mode not counting reloads. S-400 can engage 36 aerial targets at any given time while guiding 72 missiles at the same time. Even with 2 missiles shots per target, it can wipe out a couple of squadrons in matter of couple of minutes. From ranges beyond 120km to 400km. Most targets won't know what hit em. You are also pretty dumb *** to think S-400 is merely ABM. It has plenty of ranges of missiles starting 120km highly maneuverable missiles to counter fighters to 400 km missiles to shoot down long range cruise missiles and tactical ballistic missiles.

If anything S-400 relieves a lot of the existing MKIs, Mig-29s, Mig-21s and Mig-21 from air superiority missions, they can then focus on ground pounding. Most of Pakistan's AF will be in the S-400's clutches.

S-400 cannot be jammed certainly not from stand off ranges, no one has ever succeeded, just like the S-300 also hasn't been jammed, sure there are ways around the S-300 but sacrifices will need to be made, paid in blood. The enemy will try but the Big Bird radar has detection ranges far greater than any jamming device can ever counter, the S-400 was designed from ground up to defeat EW aircraft like the Growler, you would require troops on the ground to infil close enough to the radar. Furthermore, each battery has its own fire control radar and the many of the missiles are 'active radar missiles'. In the Indian context Rafale can drop gravity nukes but again so can the Su-30MKI, Jag or Mirages. Paying 9 billion for 36 birds if an utter waste of currency.

Certainly in the numbers being acquired of 36 only around 20-24 will be available at any given time, considering the availability even in the French air force is around 55%. With 24 Rafale at any given time, unless your strapping a nuke on it, it pretty much brings no added value to the IAF.

Rafale's nimbleness has nothing to do with how a war will turn out in the end since again only 36 are being acquired, if at all. You want to make difference buy at least 120-200 and then we start to make a significant change.

Till then the S-400 is always a better bet than the Rafale. It provides nation wide protective cover when acquired in the numbers being suggested.

We can secure our skies, but to destroy targets we need good offensive fighters too..

Su 30 mki , S 400 do some what overlapping role of air dominance/ denial

for bombing targets , we need good A2G fighter.

So where are we lacking ? What's our priority ?

If S400 can take care Chinese 5 th generation aircrafts , it's a very good purchase.,
otherwise even that is not going to be a triumph card

S-400 is designed from ground up to defeat EW aircraft like the growler, stealth fighter like the F-22. S-400 in the context of war with Pak or China can enforce a no fly zone over most of Pak and TAR. It can swat a lot of their key birds like transport, awacs out of the air, can keep the enemy air force grounded since at one point the losses can be quite hefty. Sure there will be tactics around it, low level ingress from fighters who get close enough but again since S-400 will be layered with Akash, Spyder, Barak NG etc. the proverbial spider's net gets thicker and deadlier the closer the enemy gets to our border. With S-400, Akash providing cover, ground troops can advance easier, existing MKIs, Jags, Mirages, Mig-27s and Mig-29s can be put to good use in terms of A2G attacks. 36 Rafale out which only around 20-24 are available at any time won't make a stunning difference in the grand scheme of things, certainly not for 9 billion. We are better off adding more capable Super MKI
 
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UNI news source now getting picked up in Defenseworld

India Inks S-400 Missile Defense System Deal With Russia For $10.6 Billion

India Inks S-400 Missile Defense System Deal With Russia For $10.6 Billion
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Wednesday, November 4, 2015 @ 11:55 AM
Views : 1321 A- A A+
s-400_tri_1446635032.jpg

S-400 Triumf Anti-Ballistic Missile

India has sealed the modalities of the S-400 anti-ballistic missile systems with Moscow for an approximate US $10.6 billion (INR 70,000 Crore).

The modalities, including the price of deal and number of systems to be acquired, were agreed upon in the meeting of India-Russia Inter Governmental Commission on Military-Technical-Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) which concluded Monday in Moscow; with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar co-chairing it jointly with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu, Indian newswire UNI reported quoting top sources in the Defense Ministry Monday.

The mega deal, along with an agreement to get another nuclear submarine, is likely to be formally signed during the visit to Russia of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who would be travelling to Moscow sometime in December for an annual summit with President Vladimir Putin, the sources told UNI.
 
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What garbage, Rafale in the paltry numbers of 36 being acquired have no added value. In the Indian context most of its French weapons are far too expensive for the number of targets we face. A single full regiment of S-400 has upwards of 256 missiles in ready to fire mode not counting reloads. S-400 can engage 36 aerial targets at any given time while guiding 72 missiles at the same time. Even with 2 missiles shots per target, it can wipe out a couple of squadrons in matter of couple of minutes. From ranges beyond 120km to 400km. Most targets won't know what hit em. You are also pretty dumb *** to think S-400 is merely ABM. It has plenty of ranges of missiles starting 120km highly maneuverable missiles to counter fighters to 400 km missiles to shoot down long range cruise missiles and tactical ballistic missiles.

If anything S-400 relieves a lot of the existing MKIs, Mig-29s, Mig-21s and Mig-21 from air superiority missions, they can then focus on ground pounding. Most of Pakistan's AF will be in the S-400's clutches.

S-400 cannot be jammed certainly not from stand off ranges, no one has ever succeeded, just like the S-300 also hasn't been jammed, sure there are ways around the S-300 but sacrifices will need to be made, paid in blood. The enemy will try but the Big Bird radar has detection ranges far greater than any jamming device can ever counter, the S-400 was designed from ground up to defeat EW aircraft like the Growler, you would require troops on the ground to infil close enough to the radar. Furthermore, each battery has its own fire control radar and the many of the missiles are 'active radar missiles'. In the Indian context Rafale can drop gravity nukes but again so can the Su-30MKI, Jag or Mirages. Paying 9 billion for 36 birds if an utter waste of currency.

Certainly in the numbers being acquired of 36 only around 20-24 will be available at any given time, considering the availability even in the French air force is around 55%. With 24 Rafale at any given time, unless your strapping a nuke on it, it pretty much brings no added value to the IAF.

Rafale's nimbleness has nothing to do with how a war will turn out in the end since again only 36 are being acquired, if at all. You want to make difference buy at least 120-200 and then we start to make a significant change.

Till then the S-400 is always a better bet than the Rafale. It provides nation wide protective cover when acquired in the numbers being suggested.

LOL...looks like Armchair experts in pdf know more about IAF requirements than MoD :lol:

So far the news is MMRCA has been scrapped and 36 rafale is being purchased off the shelf. Period. Not amount of mental masturbation is going to change this so stop wasting my time by sharing your "expert opinions".

S400 has 3 kind of missiles assigned for a single threat which is Ballestic Missiles. Such an expensive ABM system is unlikely to be used to target Aircrafts. To really is you need to take those 252 missiles and divide them by 3 and then you get 84 which is the number of target it can take out. Do you even know the maximum G value of these missiles ? :lol:

Now ALL radars can be jammed. All you need to do is fill the space with High energy EMW across all spectrum. Solid state amplifiers make this a reality and you can be pretty sure that one of the first things an enemy will do is try and take out the radars even if the price is to be paid by blood. That is the first step to ANY attack.

All the "active radards on the missiles" are useful ONLY after they have been launched post detection. So if they are never launched, they cease to matter.

I am not interested in worthless speculation based on your desires and fantasies. If you have any more facts to present do so by posting links.
 
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Incorrect, S-400 is a very offensive system,
Well this is simply illogical. By nature the S-400 is a defensive platform and one with a very specific mandate in mind- comparing it to a multi-role fighter jet is simply nonsensical. I have honestly never heard this sort of discussion anywhere else- no air force in the world has stated SAMs (no matter how capable) are substitutes for fighter jets. They aren't even remotely competing for resources in the IAF- it is not a "either or" situation.

t can cause havoc Rafale can't begin to do and all it takes is a switch of the key. 3 full scale regiments with 4 battalions each facing Pak pretty much makes a significant part of their AF redundant.
Why keep talking about Pakistan? The threat from them (conventionally) has been neutralised for decades. The S-400 (and Rafale) are far more important against China and this is the adversary the entire Indian Military is concerning itself with.

Unlike Pakistan, many of China's military bases are found far away from India's borders and no SAM system will threaten them, it requires a capable long range strike fighter (aka the Rafale).Yes, a few S400 batteries deployed 100 or so KM inside Indian territory can harass the majority of PAF air bases- the same is not true for the PLAAF.


Rafale is a waste of money, a totally wasteful purchase, add more MKI instead.
When they are not substitutes for one another AND the MKI (especially the "Super" standard) is not even that much cheaper then the Rafale this is illogical.


What garbage, Rafale in the paltry numbers of 36 being acquired have no added value.
Which is why the 36 figure is in no way the final number- the writing is on the wall.

If anything S-400 relieves a lot of the existing MKIs, Mig-29s, Mig-21s and Mig-21 from air superiority missions, they can then focus on ground pounding.
MiG-21s (and their successor- the LCA) are not air supremacy fighters that would be the tip of the spear- they are point defence aircraft meant to act as a rear guard for the "heavy hitters".

Neither the MKI nor the MiG-29UPG are equipped (or certified) to conduct the kind of low-level long range strike missions the Rafale would be tasked with. "Ground pounding" is within their remit but it is not where they excel.


In the Indian context Rafale can drop gravity nukes but again so can the Su-30MKI, Jag or Mirages.

First you have to penetrate enemy airspace in order to carry this out, as I have stated above, this is not a role the MKIs are designed to do- they are through-bred A2A beasts (I'm not even 100% sure the SFC has imparted any nuclear delivery role to any MKI SQN). The Jaguars are becoming increasingly redundant as stand alone strike aircraft in the modern age and would hence would be not be able to carry out such long range penetration missions with an assured degree of success- the Mirage 2000s don't have the range for such a mission.

+ the Jags and Mirages will both be out of service in 15 years so who will pick up the slack?


Rafale is the only logical solution to all of the above issues- and a lot of them.
 
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Incorrect, S-400 is a very offensive system, far more effective than the Rafale ever can be in swatting birds out of the air, a single regiment based on the border can cover plenty of Pak or TAR and enforce a no fly zone without ever crossing the border. It can cause havoc Rafale can't begin to do and all it takes is a switch of the key. 3 full scale regiments with 4 battalions each facing Pak pretty much makes a significant part of their AF redundant. Rafale is a waste of money, a totally wasteful purchase, add more MKI instead.


S 400 offensive in what way? it won't strike enemy territory.. rather it just protect our sky...
 
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S400 is a Defensive Offense weapon.

It not only defends but also prevents the opponent's offensive moves (across the borders) giving the defender more liberty to go on the offensive.
 
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Some more sources on this story. Getting traction now. This one from the Diplomat.


After China, India Will Become Second Buyer of Advanced Russian S-400 Missile Defense Systems


New Deal’s S-400 deal with Russia may be the largest defense deal ever between the two countries.


By Ankit Panda
November 05, 2015

India has agreed to procure Russia’s advanced S-400 Triumf surface-to-air anti-ballistic missile system in a deal valued at around $10 billion dollars. Once completed, the S-400 deal could represent the largest one ever between New Delhi and Moscow and a major coup for Russia, which has sought to sell its S-400s across the world. According to Indian state media, the S-400 deal was agreed to between Indian Defese Minister Manohar Parrikar and his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu during a meeting of a high-level bilateral group on military and technical cooperation. The deal will likely be announced formally during the anticipated state visit by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to Russia later this year.

The S-400 is an impressive piece of equipment and is an evolution of the S-300 anti-ballistic missile defense system. The S-400 is manufactured by Almaz-Antey and has been in the service of the Russian military since 2007. The system is particularly well-suited against aircraft, including any fighters and bombers that may conceivably enter Indian airspace with hostile intentions from either China or Pakistan. The S-400 is presumably also capable of intercepting most medium- and short-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. The system can engage up to 36 targets simultaneously within a range of 400 km. The system launches three types of missiles and can comprise a layered defense system. Earlier this year, China became the first foreign buyer of the S-400 system.

Beyond the S-400 deal, Parrikar and Shoigu discussed a range of other matters related to the India-Russia defense relationship. As my colleague Franz-Stefan Gady reported recently, New Delhi is considering leasing a second Russian nuclear submarine for its Navy (it currently operates on Russian Akula-class submarine on lease). It’s unclear if Parrikar and Shoigu cleared the path for a shared development deal for a derivative of the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighters. Additionally, the two sides are slated to begin an infantry exercise next week in the western Indian state of Rajasthan.

This spate of defense deal-making between New Delhi and Moscow should reassure observers in India that despite appearances, Moscow’s primary arms customer in South Asia will continue to be India. Last year, Russia lifted its decades-old self-imposed arms embargo against Pakistan and, this year, Moscow sold Islamabad four Mi-35M attack helicopters. These developments sparked concerns in India that New Delhi’s status as Moscow’s preferred customer in the region–a constant since the Cold War and the 1971 friendship treaty with the Soviet Union–was fleeting. Following fiscal pressures at home and economic isolation from the west since its annexation of Crimea in February 2014, Russia has been seeking arms buyers around the world.

After China, India Will Become Second Buyer of Advanced Russian S-400 Missile Defense Systems | The Diplomat
 
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Some more sources on this story. Getting traction now. This one from the Diplomat.


After China, India Will Become Second Buyer of Advanced Russian S-400 Missile Defense Systems


New Deal’s S-400 deal with Russia may be the largest defense deal ever between the two countries.


By Ankit Panda
November 05, 2015

India has agreed to procure Russia’s advanced S-400 Triumf surface-to-air anti-ballistic missile system in a deal valued at around $10 billion dollars. Once completed, the S-400 deal could represent the largest one ever between New Delhi and Moscow and a major coup for Russia, which has sought to sell its S-400s across the world. According to Indian state media, the S-400 deal was agreed to between Indian Defese Minister Manohar Parrikar and his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu during a meeting of a high-level bilateral group on military and technical cooperation. The deal will likely be announced formally during the anticipated state visit by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to Russia later this year.

The S-400 is an impressive piece of equipment and is an evolution of the S-300 anti-ballistic missile defense system. The S-400 is manufactured by Almaz-Antey and has been in the service of the Russian military since 2007. The system is particularly well-suited against aircraft, including any fighters and bombers that may conceivably enter Indian airspace with hostile intentions from either China or Pakistan. The S-400 is presumably also capable of intercepting most medium- and short-range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. The system can engage up to 36 targets simultaneously within a range of 400 km. The system launches three types of missiles and can comprise a layered defense system. Earlier this year, China became the first foreign buyer of the S-400 system.

Beyond the S-400 deal, Parrikar and Shoigu discussed a range of other matters related to the India-Russia defense relationship. As my colleague Franz-Stefan Gady reported recently, New Delhi is considering leasing a second Russian nuclear submarine for its Navy (it currently operates on Russian Akula-class submarine on lease). It’s unclear if Parrikar and Shoigu cleared the path for a shared development deal for a derivative of the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighters. Additionally, the two sides are slated to begin an infantry exercise next week in the western Indian state of Rajasthan.

This spate of defense deal-making between New Delhi and Moscow should reassure observers in India that despite appearances, Moscow’s primary arms customer in South Asia will continue to be India. Last year, Russia lifted its decades-old self-imposed arms embargo against Pakistan and, this year, Moscow sold Islamabad four Mi-35M attack helicopters. These developments sparked concerns in India that New Delhi’s status as Moscow’s preferred customer in the region–a constant since the Cold War and the 1971 friendship treaty with the Soviet Union–was fleeting. Following fiscal pressures at home and economic isolation from the west since its annexation of Crimea in February 2014, Russia has been seeking arms buyers around the world.

After China, India Will Become Second Buyer of Advanced Russian S-400 Missile Defense Systems | The Diplomat

I am also interested in the reliability of the reported news of Russia linking the S400 deal with PAK-FA/FGFA deal. If the S400 deal is already done, does that mean that PAK-FA/FGFA deal was also done but not yet announced?

The coming summit would be interesting. Hopefully, it would have some pleasant surprises.

On the other hand if these news items turn out to be false then it would be a great PR disaster for the government.
 
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Rafale is the only logical solution to all of the above issues- and a lot of them.

sir, each and every point of your was Bang on target but, Rafale is not the only logical solution if the cost is too high or the French tries too make too mess.

Option 1 Why Su-34 MKI is not explored.

Option 2 MKI is designed for A2A beast Sure, so whats stopping MKI to do Rafale Job --
1, Certification of airframe at low altitude profile at 8G by OEM Sukhoi,
2 Upgradation of Bars N01 MMR for Terrain hugging,
3. terrain avoidance profile, autopilot, SAR Mode ,
4. Upgradation of ECW Suite to Spectra

So why do you think all 4 points cannot be fulfilled with Super Sukhoi MKI.
 
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