India Rejects Joint Naval Patrols with US in South China Sea

[Genesis]

Mate, perhaps India's problems with Pakistan feel trival and petty to you but osme may say that about China and Japan's differences. The contrast being Pakistan is actively fighting a proxy war on the streets of India, this has created a vast amount of bad blood as you can well imagine- it isn't an easy fix. Here, both nations are going to have to put their BS to one side but it is a very tricky matter as for the Indian side it is a very emotional matter because of the terrorist attacks it has had to face and for the Pakistanis they are fixated on Kashmir that India will never concede on.

So what is the end game? Time will tell. Perhaps it is up to China to use it's considerable sway within Pakistan to explain to them the benefits of normalising economic ties with India, to cut off all the cr@p about a land they never controlled (Kashmir) and to cease the self-destructive terrorist policies.

It's a long long road ahead, I hope China can be a force for good within Pakistan and not use it as a proxy to fight India- this will be a lose-lose-lose scenerio for all three nations and their people. The amount of good India and China can do together is immense and the last thing Pakistan needs is more militarisation and more anti-India sentiment.

I don't feel it's trivial, and in reality, it hardly matters what I feel. China Japan's problems are petty. It's a bit different though, Japan had the upper hand for about 150 years now, and it's just hard to come to terms with the current reality. Understandable really. I mean anyone would feel the same way, I certainly would.

It's a different dynamic though, when in 1991 my father went to Japan for work, he never thought a place can be so advanced. It was heaven and hell then. China may still be poor, but the provinces exposed to it are the rich coastal provinces in which the differences are few and far between. In terms of national power, it also is what it is.

This would fade as China starts to have the upper hand visa vi the US, however Pakistan and India is a whole different dynamic. Hence it's difficult for me to see how it would end.


As to sway over Pakistan, China's "sway" if you must comes from the fact we never use it, the minute we start to act like the US and we lose an ally in the West. So don't expect us to be able to do anything.

India doesn't have an end game with Pakistan. In fact India would hardly notice it, if it wasn't for constant bickering and proxy war. The only issue both the countries have is Kashmir.

Being the bigger power India is very comfortable with status quo in terms of Kashmir. We can put it on the back burner for decades but, it is Pakistan that wants to internationalise the Kashmir issue which they haven't had any success in so far.

Both countries being the successor of British India, Pakistan sees itself as an equal to India. Hence, they feel the need to have India bogged down in it's immediate neighbourhood (Similar to what US wants India to play vis a vis China). Any elevation of India or any power projection by India outside south asia is not appreciated by them. Whether be it nuclear deal, UNSC membership and so on. China has allowed indulged Pakistan for this very reason.

In the case of India in terms of China and US, it knows that its' time has not come yet. Therefore, despite being a smaller power it is quite comfortable with status quo on border disputes with China.

If you notice in my original post, I said India may have a chance to challenge China and US in the Indian Ocean if China wins. It's obvious that China will solidify East Asia and move our attention to the West, challenging the US in its own backyard is really unrealistic. I won't say forever, as nothing is, but I can't see it within at least 50 years. That's saying a lot as anyone who says they can even see the next year is full of crap.

So China, India and the US will face off in the Indian ocean is all but assured. China and Japan can patch things up and move on. India having Pakistan as an enemy won't necessarily hurt your chances, but it certainly doesn't help.

Pakistan is definitely a factor. Anything else would be disingenuous.

Indian members

@Abingdonboy @kasper95 @911 @Ankit Kumar @sarjenprabhu

There goes an old saying:



But in India's case this is the opposite, its the second time in our recent history opportunity to contain China is knocking on our doorstep.

The first time it was the Soviet Union, who after 1971 war asked India to join their military alliance :"Asian Collective Security Proposal" in order to contain the Chinese.

The Soviet Union's Asian Collective Security Proposal: A Club in Search of Members. | RAND

We Indians rejected this idea and did not join the same despite owing Soviets for 1971 support.

For this move, do you think the Chinese were thankful for this move? No.

Instead of appreciating this move, In return, they gave us a nuclear Pakistan.

From the Chinese perception it was not a case of India willing to normalize ties with China, but rather China's enemies India and the Soviet Union not trusting each other and hence exploit this full maximum extent.

So in the same way for the second time a nation is requesting to join them to counter Chinese and If we chose this facade of Non-alignment again, be sure the Chinese will exploit it again.

Make no mistake Chinese are determined to harm us in every way possible, they consider us "a nation that dilutes Chinese influence worldwide". The Chinese are not bothered about our "intentions" but our "capabilities"

Their state run media has referred to us Indians as "inferior", such language is straight from the handbook of fascist regimes of WW2.
Even the ISPR despite anti-India rhetoric has never gone such disgusting level of fascism.

This narrative of China is not new, they have always had this mindset.
During the Korean war, India is overtly pro-Chinese at UN, even Indian proposed resolution was responsible for ending the Korean war. In return, the Chinese gave us 1962.
Post Mao's death in the late 1970s, when India-China ties were normalizing, the Chinese intent was to use India as a counterweight to the USA and the Soviet Union, in other words, to fight USA and Soviets to last Indian, how they are currently doing so in case of India Pakistan.

We need to communicate in a language the Chinese understand, for example in 1975 we integrated Sikkim into India.
Ever wondered why Chinese never dared a military confrontation, not even aggressive patrolling despite the same rhetoric used to justify 1962?
Because India of 1975 had 1.1 million battle hardened army, nuclear weapons plus defense pact with the Soviets.


As I have stated before.
IF today we do not take a stance against Chinese in SCS, we take a defensive stance against Chinese in IO region tomorrow.

You will take a defensive stance in the IO anyways. That has been set in motion by your own government's failure to modernize at the same rate we have.

However jamming us in SCS would be counter productive in the sense India would one day seek prestige in your own backyard, should the US remain the sole super power, you be facing the same thing we would, and would probably have less chance than we have now.

If China does break through, India can leverage all the powers and achieve some sort of reluctant understanding. You can't negotiate with someone that has all the cards. So take a few out. As an ancient imperial power, these things must have happened quite a few times in your history.

Oh and thanking India? I was under the impression, countries are only guided by interests. Nehru's desire for India to lead the developing nations was more than apparent, so let's not pretend India did any favors. Having said that, it's not about that, that was the past, time to move on, new challenges awaits.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Take a stand in SCS , but not with USA ( Another nation which wants to use India but does not want it to become powerful enough do that it takes independent decisions for its own matters. ).

Neither we own " ANYTHING " to US unlike Russia , nor we stand to gain " A PENNY " by doing joint patrols with USA.

The move in SCS is about sending a tit for tat message to Chinese.

If you send nuclear submarines to Sri Lanka for docking, expect Indian navy in SCS.

Fail to send this message, Chinese will make more hegemonic moves in IO region.

When an opponent strikes and you only to chose to dodge, the opponent however incapable will gain a false sense of supremacy and persistently continue to attack. Hit back and you will have the opponent in his place.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The move in SCS is about sending a tit for tat message to Chinese.

If you send nuclear submarines to Sri Lanka for docking, expect Indian navy in SCS.

Fail to send this message, Chinese will make more hegemonic moves in IO region.

When an opponent strikes and you only to chose to dodge, the opponent however incapable will gain a false sense of supremacy and persistently continue to attack. Hit back and you will have the opponent in his place.

Absolutely. Should be done.

But not with USA.

 

[southpaw]

Absolutely. Should be done.

But not with USA.

Not with USA? Patrolling SCS alone against China is suicide. China wouldn't hesitate to sink a few indian vessels to flex its muscles to USA. But doing so in a joint patrol is an open provocation to USA. China would never do it. China is waiting and watching for USA to crumble and for them to take their rightful place as the next superpower. In the current trajectory that is going to happen sooner than later. Good luck negotiating with sole superpower China because, there will be NO negotiation.

In the great game of international diplomacy, you need to hold some cards to play against your opponent. India blew its chance to hold a trump card against China. China creates cards where none exist.
Chinese presence in Azad Kashmir
Chinese support to Pakistan against india
Chinese String of pearls strategy
Chinese occupying aksai chin
Chinese claiming AP
Chinese claiming Andaman
Chinese supporting Maoists
Chinese support to Kashmir separatists now
Chinese sub patrols in indian ocean
Chinese incursions into Ladakh
This list is endless

They hold all the cards. Our response to every china move is only reactionary. I thought Modi was the leader with some spine. He disappoints. He has proved that he is yet another politician.

Indian china apologists' excuse to the chinese open aggression? Nehru's forward policy. How many decades more are you going to say that. Why do you feel guilty when all Nehru did was to put our army at our legitimate border? How long are you going to deny you don't have a China problem? You can't claim to be peaceful when you haven't demonstrated your courage. You can't negotiate as equal if your enemy doesn't respect you. Are we hiding our cowardice behind this veil of peace? How long are you gonna take it lying down?

Some may say i'm war mongering. But it is the complete opposite. War happens when your enemy thinks you are weak. Doing military exercises in a desert is not gonna make your enemy respect you. When are you going to wake up India? The generals and politicians are busy enriching themselves, they would sell our mothers to be used by the Chinese let alone our Motherland. The south indians, the marathis, the muslims, the sikhs, the bengalis, the rich people, the poor people, the upper caste, the lower caste, the software engineers don't care. We are a nation divided with our own vested interests in our mind. The poor patriotic soldier is the one whose head is hanging in shame. Reality is, neither the generals nor the babus want to risk a war, risk their careers. And guess what? The chinese know it. The pakistanis know it. Sad narrative, but true.

 

[Magi Brahmin]

all we have to do is Army Vietnamese with Nukes and MRBMs @Viet abd @Viva_Viet

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Not with USA? Patrolling SCS alone against China is suicide. China wouldn't hesitate to sink a few indian vessels to flex its muscles to USA. But doing so in a joint patrol is an open provocation to USA. China would never do it. China is waiting and watching for USA to crumble and for them to take their rightful place as the next superpower. In the current trajectory that is going to happen sooner than later. Good luck negotiating with sole superpower China because, there will be NO negotiation.

In the great game of international diplomacy, you need to hold some cards to play against your opponent. India blew its chance to hold a trump card against China. China creates cards where none exist.
Chinese presence in ***
Chinese support to Pakistan against india
Chinese String of pearls strategy
Chinese occupying aksai chin
Chinese claiming AP
Chinese claiming Andaman
Chinese supporting Maoists
Chinese support to Kashmir separatists now
Chinese sub patrols in indian ocean
Chinese incursions into Ladakh
This list is endless

They hold all the cards. Our response to every china move is only reactionary. I thought Modi was the leader with some spine. He disappoints. He has proved that he is yet another politician.

Indian china apologists' excuse to the chinese open aggression? Nehru's forward policy. How many decades more are you going to say that. Why do you feel guilty when all Nehru did was to put our army at our legitimate border? How long are you going to deny you don't have a China problem? You can't claim to be peaceful when you haven't demonstrated your courage. You can't negotiate as equal if your enemy doesn't respect you. Are we hiding our cowardice behind this veil of peace? How long are you gonna take it lying down?

Some may say i'm war mongering. But it is the complete opposite. War happens when your enemy thinks you are weak. Doing military exercises in a desert is not gonna make your enemy respect you. When are you going to wake up India? The generals and politicians are busy enriching themselves, they would sell our mothers to be used by the Chinese let alone our Motherland. The south indians, the marathis, the muslims, the sikhs, the bengalis, the rich people, the poor people, the upper caste, the lower caste, the software engineers don't care. We are a nation divided with our own vested interests in our mind. The poor patriotic soldier is the one whose head is hanging in shame. Reality is, neither the generals nor the babus want to risk a war, risk their careers. And guess what? The chinese know it. The pakistanis know it. Sad narrative, but true.

If China can go ahead to sink Indian vessel, they have the firepower to do so to American vessels too.


And all the things China is doing is " OUR MISTAKE ",
Why is China supporting Maoists, because we are showing sympathy to those scum.
Why is China supporting Seperatists, because we are simply not putting down a bullet against those who dare raise flags of ISIS .
Why China is in IOR? Because we neglected our navy, had we been operating a couple of Akulas now, with a dozen of AIP boats, would have we cared this much?
China is doing strings of pearls, know why one major reason ? Because they pump out the number of vessels we do in 10 Years, in 1 year.
That's the difference.

They can bully Because , we do not possess spine enough to buy simple bullet proof jackets man, how do we buy Rafales.

And untill one recognises ones mistake, one is destined to " FAIL ".

To hide our " MANY MISTAKES ", what you are suggesting is to commit one more ( " Open alignment with USA " )

Also I am waiting for the answer.

What does " JOINT PATROL WITH USA " serve India ?

List " 1" reason.

 

[surya kiran]

end

The only way to counter act China is not in the SCS. Maybe for the US, it is so. But for Indian it makes no sense for us to do so....today. Till 2025 we will not be in a position to dominate the IOR. Till 2025, we will not have an air force with the firepower to deter both the PAF and PLAAF together. Till 2025, our strike corps facing China will not be ready.

Add to this, India and China both have business relations and both are rational countries when dealing with each other. The proxy wars of both countries are fought through other nations, gullible as they are. China is 10 years ahead of India, purely due its economy. Now, in this scenario how do we ensure China and India refrain from going at each other, while at the same time ensuring China loses its attempt at a stronghold in the IOR.

As you are aware, the IN has the most number of joint exercises with the USN. The total joint exercises we have with the USN is more than the sum total we hold with any other navy. Now, this is a strategic requirement for us. The biggest naval power in the IOR is the USN. Not the PN or Iranian Navy or Indian Navy. With the supposed shift in focus of the USN to the region east of the Malacca Straits, it gives the Indian Navy any opportunity to work closely with the USN and fill the vaccum left behind. While at the same time ensuring and conveying to the US, that we are not a threat to the USN in this region. Hence, the increased joint exercises.

Now, we have the Iranian Navy and the Pakistani Navy. We do not envisage trouble with the Iranians. India along with China are consumers of Iranian energy supplies and we do not see Iran as a threat to Indian peace. That leaves the Pakistani Navy. While, the Pakistani Navy is not really a threat to the IN today, the Pakistani state proves to be a nuisance factor, the way we see it.

Now, our objective is to maintain good relations with China, while ensuring the nuisance of an irrational neighbour is solved. But, this is tricky. Not purely, because of the involvement of China. Today, the Pakistani state absorbs the radicalisation pouring from the middle east. For all practical purposes the Pakistani Army was the first line of defence against these nut jobs. Hence, Pakistan also serves a purpose as a buffer state against problems pouring onto our side of the border. But, increasingly with the use of fundamentalists by 'non state actors' to attack India, the entire solution of the PA as a buffer between India and the nutjobs is out of the window.

So now, we need to safeguard ourselves against the nutjobs, while ensuring we have good relations with China, but still put an end to the nuisance arising out of Pakistan. Add to this the often quoted 'atami bum'. This will answer your end game question.

The answer lies in the Pakistani access to the Arabian Sea. Cut Balochistan, via internal insurgencies by providing the same moral support Pakistan provides to the Kashmir problem. Create a Bangladesh situation, where either Iran is forced to act or India acts or they declare independence. If Iran acts, China will not get involved. If India acts, guarantee China a route to the Arabian sea and Bay of Bengal via India thus ensuring China's energy security.

Cut Pakistani access to the Arabian sea. That should and will be the Indian end game.

 

[911]

Indian china apologists' excuse to the chinese open aggression? Nehru's forward policy. How many decades more are you going to say that. Why do you feel guilty when all Nehru did was to put our army at our legitimate border? How long are you going to deny you don't have a China problem? You can't claim to be peaceful when you haven't demonstrated your courage. You can't negotiate as equal if your enemy doesn't respect you. Are we hiding our cowardice behind this veil of peace? How long are you gonna take it lying down?

Doing opposite of what we did in 62 as a lesson from history doesn't make it right either. In war India will be one of the first target. Nukes will be flying possibly, we will be taking damage, but for what reason? None of Asian countries will survive war. The only winner will be US and countries far away. Even if no nukes are used and China collapses, there is every chance the next target will be India. And US will convince its own people including world that waging war against India is morally good. And staying neutral does not mean support to China.

Staying neutral till 2019 and BJP coming into power again will be interesting. I have a feeling Gandi family take orders from US. US is more comfortable with India under UPA, and taking BJP out of power will be their first priority. And to do that all they need to create is anti Modi perception.

 

[southpaw]

Doing opposite of what we did in 62 as a lesson from history doesn't make it right either. In war India will be one of the first target. Nukes will be flying possibly, we will be taking damage, but for what reason? None of Asian countries will survive war. The only winner will be US and countries far away. Even if no nukes are used and China collapses, there is every chance the next target will be India. And US will convince its own people including world that waging war against India is morally good. And staying neutral does not mean support to China.

Staying neutral till 2019 and BJP coming into power again will be interesting. I have a feeling Gandi family take orders from US. US is more comfortable with India under UPA, and taking BJP out of power will be their first priority. And to do that all they need to create is anti Modi perception.

Who said anything about going to war? My whole post was to show some spine to avoid going to war. Find ways to be a pain in China's side without having to go to war, both diplomatically and militarily.

 

[911]

Who said anything about going to war? My whole post was to show some spine to avoid going to war. Find ways to be a pain in China's side without having to go to war, both diplomatically and militarily.

I wish there is no war too. This is crucial time for India to develop.

 

[southpaw]

To hide our " MANY MISTAKES ", what you are suggesting is to commit one more ( " Open alignment with USA " )

Also I am waiting for the answer.

What does " JOINT PATROL WITH USA " serve India ?

List " 1" reason.

Here are reasons for you.
1) Develop some oil blocks to increase our energy security without being scared of China.
2) Show china, that if you mess with us, we mess with you.
3) In any future border/trade negotiation, have a card that we can trade for a worthy benefit. For eg. Don't meddle with Azad Kashmir we will withdraw from SCS

I am not saying that we need to be openly belligerent. Do it citing some or the other pretext like they are doing. Say we are just on a friendly visit. It doesn't have to be just SCS. As someone said above, arm Vietnam like crazy. Be a pain in China's neck in UN and in WTO. Undercut their trade with ASEAN. Create cards where none exist. Mess with their companies operating here. They have more to lose in trade than us.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Here are reasons for you.
1) Develop some oil blocks to increase our energy security without being scared of China.
2) Show china, that if you mess with us, we mess with you.
3) In any future border/trade negotiation, have a card that we can trade for a worthy benefit. For eg. Don't meddle with *** we will withdraw from SCS

I am not saying that we need to be openly belligerent. Do it citing some or the other pretext like they are doing. Say we are just on a friendly visit. It doesn't have to be just SCS. As someone said above, arm Vietnam like crazy. Be a pain in China's neck in UN and in WTO. Undercut their trade with ASEAN. Create cards where none exist. Mess with their companies operating here. They have more to lose in trade than us.

Arm Vietnam like crazy . Do you really know how crushing is the present situation of Indian Armed forces?

Oil in SCS, that is whole other issue. We already have our share of oil frozen in Syria, and a poor nation like India cannot afford to create issues just for the sake of creating it. For oil, it would be better to buy more from Venezuela and get the Iran, Oman and India undersea pipeline.

Now coming to the problem, the problem is we are currently not even in a position to dominate north Indian Ocean forget about patrols in SCS near Chinese artificial islands.

The best way to counter their influence is Economic growth of India coupled with strengthening of Indian land forces.

We are really not in a position to even be a prick to China. They can just keep pumping Pakistan to bogg us down. The key for us is getting Northern Alliance back up in Afghanistan, and get the Fcuk Afghan Taliban out. That will turn the tables in Afghanistan. Once that happens, we start winning.

 

[Echo_419]

Indeed, US is capable to take care China alone, by drag India in, not only they will take less damage but India will take damage for nothing. A smart India will sit and watch how China-US destroy each other and not mess up to get hurt.

China should also return the gesture & ramp up investment in India

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Indian members

@Abingdonboy @kasper95 @911 @Ankit Kumar @sarjenprabhu

There goes an old saying:



But in India's case this is the opposite, its the second time in our recent history opportunity to contain China is knocking on our doorstep.

The first time it was the Soviet Union, who after 1971 war asked India to join their military alliance :"Asian Collective Security Proposal" in order to contain the Chinese.

The Soviet Union's Asian Collective Security Proposal: A Club in Search of Members. | RAND

We Indians rejected this idea and did not join the same despite owing Soviets for 1971 support.

For this move, do you think the Chinese were thankful? No.

Instead of appreciating this move, In return, they gave us a nuclear Pakistan.

From the Chinese perception it was not a case of India willing to normalize ties with China, but rather China's enemies India and the Soviet Union not trusting each other and hence exploit this full maximum extent.

So in the same way for the second time a nation is requesting to join them to counter Chinese and If we chose this facade of Non-alignment again, be sure the Chinese will exploit it again.

Make no mistake Chinese are determined to harm us in every way possible, they consider us "a nation that dilutes Chinese influence worldwide". The Chinese are not bothered about our "intentions" but our "capabilities"

Their state run media has referred to us Indians as "inferior", such language is straight from the handbook of fascist regimes of WW2.
Even the ISPR despite anti-India rhetoric has never gone such disgusting level of fascism.

This narrative of China is not new, they have always had this mindset.
During the Korean war, India is overtly pro-Chinese at UN, even Indian proposed resolution was responsible for ending the Korean war. In return, the Chinese gave us 1962.
Post Mao's death in the late 1970s, when India-China ties were normalizing, the Chinese intent was to use India as a counterweight to the USA and the Soviet Union, in other words, to fight USA and Soviets to last Indian, how they are currently doing so in case of India Pakistan.

We need to communicate in a language the Chinese understand, for example in 1975 we integrated Sikkim into India.
Ever wondered why Chinese never dared a military confrontation, not even aggressive patrolling despite the same rhetoric used to justify 1962?
Because India of 1975 had 1.1 million battle hardened army, nuclear weapons plus defense pact with the Soviets.

As I have stated before.
IF today we do not take a stance against Chinese in SCS, we take a defensive stance against Chinese in IO region tomorrow.

There is different between good opportunity and bad opportunity, if you think that is a good opportunity then go ahead to join patrol with US over SCS but most likely India will return empty handed as US while we continue to reinforce our military present and land reclamation in SCS. And why we need to be thankful to India when we're not in desperation, what you can do to us today in SCS we can certainly return the same favor to your tomorrow in IOR, the only situation that we will be thankful to India is when you join China to counter US in SCS and oppose American global domination...other than that we own you nothing.

 

[axisofevil]

Absolutely. Should be done.

But not with USA.

With who then? Bro you your hatred for the US is blinding on you. Who else can stand up to China and hold a leash with Pakistan? Who?

There is different between good opportunity and bad opportunity, if you think that is a good opportunity then go ahead to join patrol with US over SCS but most likely India will return empty handed as US while we continue to reinforce our military present and land reclamation in SCS. And why we need to be thankful to India when we're not in desperation, what you can do to us today in SCS we can certainly return the same favor to your tomorrow in IOR, the only situation that we will be thankful to India is when you join China to counter US in SCS and oppose American global domination...other than that we own you nothing.

You guys started this dish in the first place. You get what you spew..

Arm Vietnam like crazy . Do you really know how crushing is the present situation of Indian Armed forces?

Oil in SCS, that is whole other issue. We already have our share of oil frozen in Syria, and a poor nation like India cannot afford to create issues just for the sake of creating it. For oil, it would be better to buy more from Venezuela and get the Iran, Oman and India undersea pipeline.

Now coming to the problem, the problem is we are currently not even in a position to dominate north Indian Ocean forget about patrols in SCS near Chinese artificial islands.

The best way to counter their influence is Economic growth of India coupled with strengthening of Indian land forces.

We are really not in a position to even be a prick to China. They can just keep pumping Pakistan to bogg us down. The key for us is getting Northern Alliance back up in Afghanistan, and get the Fcuk Afghan Taliban out. That will turn the tables in Afghanistan. Once that happens, we start winning.

Northern Alliance is nothing nowadays. The Taliban enjoy immense support by Sunni's in the region including Saudi Arabia. There is a huge conflict brewing between nations of Shia and Sunni. Why do you think Saudi is approaching us after these yrs?

Doing opposite of what we did in 62 as a lesson from history doesn't make it right either. In war India will be one of the first target. Nukes will be flying possibly, we will be taking damage, but for what reason? None of Asian countries will survive war. The only winner will be US and countries far away. Even if no nukes are used and China collapses, there is every chance the next target will be India. And US will convince its own people including world that waging war against India is morally good. And staying neutral does not mean support to China.

Staying neutral till 2019 and BJP coming into power again will be interesting. I have a feeling Gandi family take orders from US. US is more comfortable with India under UPA, and taking BJP out of power will be their first priority. And to do that all they need to create is anti Modi perception.

To a degree but I think Gandhi is in full of control of English. And you are correct, US is more comfortable with Gandhi because they are easier to control and bribe away. Plus, the Westerners will never give up any info of black money on Congress players. its stashed away there as political blackmail. I am astonished how stupid the Indian ppl were all these decades to allow this family to rule India for so so long. Like what the f-k were we thinking. Why would call ourselves a democracy when this family doesn't want to give up control? How come they don't feel ashamed or wrong for controlling India for so long?

all we have to do is Army Vietnamese with Nukes and MRBMs @Viet abd @Viva_Viet

At some point, blame AQ network for giving the Vietnamese Nuke and missile tech...the same way China has done so with NK and Pakistan. We shouldn't be blind to the obvious. China did it on purpose.