Genesis
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2013
- Messages
- 4,599
- Reaction score
- 24
- Country
- Location
Mate, perhaps India's problems with Pakistan feel trival and petty to you but osme may say that about China and Japan's differences. The contrast being Pakistan is actively fighting a proxy war on the streets of India, this has created a vast amount of bad blood as you can well imagine- it isn't an easy fix. Here, both nations are going to have to put their BS to one side but it is a very tricky matter as for the Indian side it is a very emotional matter because of the terrorist attacks it has had to face and for the Pakistanis they are fixated on Kashmir that India will never concede on.
So what is the end game? Time will tell. Perhaps it is up to China to use it's considerable sway within Pakistan to explain to them the benefits of normalising economic ties with India, to cut off all the cr@p about a land they never controlled (Kashmir) and to cease the self-destructive terrorist policies.
It's a long long road ahead, I hope China can be a force for good within Pakistan and not use it as a proxy to fight India- this will be a lose-lose-lose scenerio for all three nations and their people. The amount of good India and China can do together is immense and the last thing Pakistan needs is more militarisation and more anti-India sentiment.
I don't feel it's trivial, and in reality, it hardly matters what I feel. China Japan's problems are petty. It's a bit different though, Japan had the upper hand for about 150 years now, and it's just hard to come to terms with the current reality. Understandable really. I mean anyone would feel the same way, I certainly would.
It's a different dynamic though, when in 1991 my father went to Japan for work, he never thought a place can be so advanced. It was heaven and hell then. China may still be poor, but the provinces exposed to it are the rich coastal provinces in which the differences are few and far between. In terms of national power, it also is what it is.
This would fade as China starts to have the upper hand visa vi the US, however Pakistan and India is a whole different dynamic. Hence it's difficult for me to see how it would end.
As to sway over Pakistan, China's "sway" if you must comes from the fact we never use it, the minute we start to act like the US and we lose an ally in the West. So don't expect us to be able to do anything.
India doesn't have an end game with Pakistan. In fact India would hardly notice it, if it wasn't for constant bickering and proxy war. The only issue both the countries have is Kashmir.
Being the bigger power India is very comfortable with status quo in terms of Kashmir. We can put it on the back burner for decades but, it is Pakistan that wants to internationalise the Kashmir issue which they haven't had any success in so far.
Both countries being the successor of British India, Pakistan sees itself as an equal to India. Hence, they feel the need to have India bogged down in it's immediate neighbourhood (Similar to what US wants India to play vis a vis China). Any elevation of India or any power projection by India outside south asia is not appreciated by them. Whether be it nuclear deal, UNSC membership and so on. China has allowed indulged Pakistan for this very reason.
In the case of India in terms of China and US, it knows that its' time has not come yet. Therefore, despite being a smaller power it is quite comfortable with status quo on border disputes with China.
If you notice in my original post, I said India may have a chance to challenge China and US in the Indian Ocean if China wins. It's obvious that China will solidify East Asia and move our attention to the West, challenging the US in its own backyard is really unrealistic. I won't say forever, as nothing is, but I can't see it within at least 50 years. That's saying a lot as anyone who says they can even see the next year is full of crap.
So China, India and the US will face off in the Indian ocean is all but assured. China and Japan can patch things up and move on. India having Pakistan as an enemy won't necessarily hurt your chances, but it certainly doesn't help.
Pakistan is definitely a factor. Anything else would be disingenuous.
You will take a defensive stance in the IO anyways. That has been set in motion by your own government's failure to modernize at the same rate we have.Indian members
@Abingdonboy @kasper95 @911 @Ankit Kumar @sarjenprabhu
There goes an old saying:
But in India's case this is the opposite, its the second time in our recent history opportunity to contain China is knocking on our doorstep.
The first time it was the Soviet Union, who after 1971 war asked India to join their military alliance :"Asian Collective Security Proposal" in order to contain the Chinese.
The Soviet Union's Asian Collective Security Proposal: A Club in Search of Members. | RAND
We Indians rejected this idea and did not join the same despite owing Soviets for 1971 support.
For this move, do you think the Chinese were thankful for this move? No.
Instead of appreciating this move, In return, they gave us a nuclear Pakistan.
From the Chinese perception it was not a case of India willing to normalize ties with China, but rather China's enemies India and the Soviet Union not trusting each other and hence exploit this full maximum extent.
So in the same way for the second time a nation is requesting to join them to counter Chinese and If we chose this facade of Non-alignment again, be sure the Chinese will exploit it again.
Make no mistake Chinese are determined to harm us in every way possible, they consider us "a nation that dilutes Chinese influence worldwide". The Chinese are not bothered about our "intentions" but our "capabilities"
Their state run media has referred to us Indians as "inferior", such language is straight from the handbook of fascist regimes of WW2.
Even the ISPR despite anti-India rhetoric has never gone such disgusting level of fascism.
This narrative of China is not new, they have always had this mindset.
During the Korean war, India is overtly pro-Chinese at UN, even Indian proposed resolution was responsible for ending the Korean war. In return, the Chinese gave us 1962.
Post Mao's death in the late 1970s, when India-China ties were normalizing, the Chinese intent was to use India as a counterweight to the USA and the Soviet Union, in other words, to fight USA and Soviets to last Indian, how they are currently doing so in case of India Pakistan.
We need to communicate in a language the Chinese understand, for example in 1975 we integrated Sikkim into India.
Ever wondered why Chinese never dared a military confrontation, not even aggressive patrolling despite the same rhetoric used to justify 1962?
Because India of 1975 had 1.1 million battle hardened army, nuclear weapons plus defense pact with the Soviets.
As I have stated before.
IF today we do not take a stance against Chinese in SCS, we take a defensive stance against Chinese in IO region tomorrow.
However jamming us in SCS would be counter productive in the sense India would one day seek prestige in your own backyard, should the US remain the sole super power, you be facing the same thing we would, and would probably have less chance than we have now.
If China does break through, India can leverage all the powers and achieve some sort of reluctant understanding. You can't negotiate with someone that has all the cards. So take a few out. As an ancient imperial power, these things must have happened quite a few times in your history.
Oh and thanking India? I was under the impression, countries are only guided by interests. Nehru's desire for India to lead the developing nations was more than apparent, so let's not pretend India did any favors. Having said that, it's not about that, that was the past, time to move on, new challenges awaits.