India Rejects Joint Naval Patrols with US in South China Sea

[Maler]

Thats the price we pay for not being allies as I mentioned. We don't want to toe any line, don't want to become part of any friendships, no real allies, etc. Our pride and ego will not allow us to make hard decisions. So we walk this thin rope thinking it will get us somewhere. Hope it works out....I don't see it though

The way you are suggesting is easy way, but may have long term negative ramifications for India. So, India needs to tread carefully. US or any other country is not well wishers, everyone looking for their own national interest and we are doing the same. In 2011, US or you can say Obama administration was on the verge of reverting its 'Asian Pivot' policy and planning to work with China very closely in pacific and IOR, which left India and others hanging midway. So India learned its lesson in a hard way. Now, India is cautious to join US alliance and is not in hurry and keeping its all options open (like Shanghai org) !!!! and I think it is a good approach.

 

[axisofevil]

The way you are suggesting is easy way, but may have long term negative ramifications for India. So, India needs to tread carefully. US or any other country is not well wishers, everyone looking for their own national interest and we are doing the same. In 2011, US or you can say Obama administration was on the verge of reverting its 'Asian Pivot' policy and planning to work with China very closely in pacific and IOR, which left India and others hanging midway. So India learned its lesson in a hard way. Now, India is cautious to join US alliance and is not in hurry and keeping its all options open (like Shanghai org) !!!! and I think it is a good approach.

I agree....we must remain cautious......but I wonder if Obama reverted due to India inability and inaction to make strong decisions. That remains to be seen. India doesn't want to shake the boat while our neighbors are diving into the water. We have no roadmap or plan for the future. We need a long term strategy what do want to achieve. what are our goals. Our planning is very primitive and our ability to carry it out on time if ever is poor.

Even if they could change them.. do you really think they'd do it????? of course not.. because it'll set a bad example for US customers.. they'll never do such things

No it won't. Most US customers are allies and won't have to worry about fighting a war without US "approval ",

 

[WAR-rior]

Jumping in US camp blindly can hurt us in long term. Indian diplomats needs to understand the consequences of every scenario possible before taking action. The best bet right now is to stay neutral.

Totally agree. In case of USA, we actually have to wear our baniya hat. Be a bit smart and cunning. Take our steps with care. As MoD said, we are Yet not ready to operate globally means we will but at the right time. USA understands this and that's why want us to do as it wants coz it knows if one can tame India and ask it to follow USA Leadership then it's only now. In future India will keep on getting more powerful and even more averse to pressures.

We can learn from Pakistani case. Who better than Pakistan can teach us pros and cons of blindly falling into American game plan?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/pakarms.pdf



Is the United States Cutting Pakistan Off? The Politics of Military Aid





Why America is cozying up to the Indian army

It repeats what has been said and done. Nothing new.

It doesn't give " 1 " reason for why India should overlook the aid US " continues " to give to Pakistan ,( which is more than what is " actually " needed to fight ofTerrorists.And eventually it ends up giving Pakistanis the knife with which they slit off our soldiers heads. )

And come up in SCS while we struggled with our own problems ?

If we go in SCS, we should go under " INDIAN " flag not under " US Coalition ".

Waiting for atleast 2 Benefits of Indian in SCS " under US Coalition name " which should persuade India to overlook Pakistan and US relations.

 

[Maler]

I agree....we must remain cautious......but I wonder if Obama reverted due to India inability and inaction to make strong decisions. That remains to be seen. India doesn't want to shake the boat while our neighbors are diving into the water. We have no roadmap or plan for the future. We need a long term strategy what do want to achieve. what are our goals. Our planning is very primitive and our ability to carry it out on time if ever is poor.

Obama reverts not due to inaction of India, It reverts because Chinese demands were too high and were unacceptable to US. Indian inaction is still there, so why now US is showing so much aggression. US is a sole super power of the world and it is trying to use India like a poodle by offering some low level strategic systems. Till now it does not want relationship with India on equal level/terms or even at respectable terms. US trying to use its old trick of carrots and sticks with India, carrots by offering some systems to India and using sticks by offering Pakistan F-16 and accessories. So, we need to wait and watch, no need to hurry!!!!

 

[Mirza Jatt]

good decision... dnt trust china but too early to trust usa after their double game in supplying weapons to pakistan.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

India Rejects Joint Naval Patrols with U.S. in South China Sea

India made the good choice

 

[Abingdonboy]

India made the good choice

In the coming years there is going to be a lot more pressure for India to bleed on behalf of the West against China, hopefully there is a govt in India that keeps showing the West the finger.

 

[Genesis]

I understand exactly what you are thinking. But remember today is China tommorow can be India too. You have already declared America winner in this war.

This I believe is the best comment and exactly what I been thinking the whole time. If china were to lose this tug of war, and is stagnated, tomorrow when India needs to ascend, guess who's there to pay the favor right back.

That benefits only the US and is a lose lose for both China and India. should China win, then India at least has a chance to eventually also challenge the US, and China in the Indian Ocean.

If China loses, US remains the sole power in the world, India will have zero chance.

US might be trying hard to take Pakistan out of China camp. Isolating them will push them further towards China.

But India and Pakistan can't go togethor. Although Nawaz govt trying its best, that might be the reason for his unconditional love for India? Not sure if Nawaz govt takes orders from US not. I am just guessing.

What is India's end game with Pakistan.

All jokes and insults aside, as a 180 million and possible 200 million people country, as well as right next to India, India cannot ignore Pakistan as a nation. Any suggestion that it can is frankly not based in reality.

China and Japan will make up once this bs with the US is over, but seeing a lot of the comments, obviously this forum is filled with nationalistic dudes, it doesn't look bright for a possible reconciliation between the two.

What is the actual facts on the ground, can a truth be reached, if not friendship.

 

[kasper95]

US dsnt need India to win with China, they want India so that they take less damage fighting China. if a real fight breaks out neither china or US will the same again.its better for us to stay out of it.

and more over China cannot afford a long war with anyone.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

US dsnt need India to win with China, they want India so that they take less damage fighting China. if a real fight breaks out neither china or US will the same again.its better for us to stay out of it.

and more over China cannot afford a long war with anyone.

Indeed, US is capable to take care China alone, by drag India in, not only they will take less damage but India will take damage for nothing. A smart India will sit and watch how China-US destroy each other and not mess up to get hurt.

 

[Abingdonboy]

This I believe is the best comment and exactly what I been thinking the whole time. If china were to lose this tug of war, and is stagnated, tomorrow when India needs to ascend, guess who's there to pay the favor right back.

That benefits only the US and is a lose lose for both China and India. should China win, then India at least has a chance to eventually also challenge the US, and China in the Indian Ocean.

If China loses, US remains the sole power in the world, India will have zero chance.

I think this is a very fair point. The US is a super predator- they either eliminate or "befriend" (and diminish) any nation that looks to challenge their unchallenged grip on power in the world. No matter what their rhetoric is about "protecting the sanctity of international law", the US is looking out for its own interests and opposing China purely because it feels as if it is a potential challenger.

Today it is China, tomorow it WILL be India, right now the US is trying to neuter India and bring it in its "fold" and are using velvet gloves for now. As India continues to rise and oppose the US the tone is going to change, just as it has with China and India will start getting some serious heat from the West. In fact, this is already playing out, whilst strategic circles in the US are trying to cajole India into being their poodle, their media is hell bent on hurting India's image and I am pretty sure the two are linked- it is a carrot and stick approach.

As it stands, China is breaking many barriers that India can take advantadge of in the future- challenging the Western hegemony in multilateral instutitions such as the IMF and WB.

As India has said for a long time- it supports a multi-polar world, today (and for the forseeable future) the world is dominated by the US.

If India and China can put their nonsense to one side they can dominate the world, this is what the West is absolutely petrified of and why they are trying to play India and China against each other. It remains to be seen if both sides can appreciate this and ensure their nations' interests are being served above all else- not the agenda of the West.

What is India's end game with Pakistan.

All jokes and insults aside, as a 180 million and possible 200 million people country, as well as right next to India, India cannot ignore Pakistan as a nation. Any suggestion that it can is frankly not based in reality.

China and Japan will make up once this bs with the US is over, but seeing a lot of the comments, obviously this forum is filled with nationalistic dudes, it doesn't look bright for a possible reconciliation between the two.

What is the actual facts on the ground, can a truth be reached, if not friendship.

Mate, perhaps India's problems with Pakistan feel trival and petty to you but osme may say that about China and Japan's differences. The contrast being Pakistan is actively fighting a proxy war on the streets of India, this has created a vast amount of bad blood as you can well imagine- it isn't an easy fix. Here, both nations are going to have to put their BS to one side but it is a very tricky matter as for the Indian side it is a very emotional matter because of the terrorist attacks it has had to face and for the Pakistanis they are fixated on Kashmir that India will never concede on.

So what is the end game? Time will tell. Perhaps it is up to China to use it's considerable sway within Pakistan to explain to them the benefits of normalising economic ties with India, to cut off all the cr@p about a land they never controlled (Kashmir) and to cease the self-destructive terrorist policies.

It's a long long road ahead, I hope China can be a force for good within Pakistan and not use it as a proxy to fight India- this will be a lose-lose-lose scenerio for all three nations and their people. The amount of good India and China can do together is immense and the last thing Pakistan needs is more militarisation and more anti-India sentiment.

US dsnt need India to win with China, they want India so that they take less damage fighting China. if a real fight breaks out neither china or US will the same again.its better for us to stay out of it.

and more over China cannot afford a long war with anyone.

India offers almost nothing to the US that it doesn't already have, the ONLY reason they want to drag India in is to take out two potential challengers to their postion as the undisputed superpower in the world.

Check this out:

Look who are number 1 and 2 in 2050- it isn't the US. Do you think the elite in America are oblivious to this? Who gains the most if Asia's giants fight each other? The US is in the fortuitous postion of already being developed, India and China are FAR behind and will take decades to get anywhere near that standard of living, the American people can almost afford to go to war- the 2+ billion Chinese and Indian people can NOT.

To make the above a reality it relies on 3 more decades of sustained peace and improved relations in the global community. There is nothing the West would love more than to see that conflict, not only would it ensure their supremacy but who is, by FAR, the largest arms exporter on Earth?

@Kiss_of_the_Dragon @Chinese-Dragon @wanglaokan @Genesis @PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Ankit Kumar @MilSpec @nair @AUSTERLITZ @knight11 @ni8mare @scorpionx @waz @Parul @Roybot @ranjeet @Star Wars @arp2041 @skyisthelimit @randomradio @Armani @Taygibay @Neptune @Skull and Bones @Koovie @Echo_419 @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @SR-91 @surya kiran @sathya @Stephen Cohen @dadeechi @hinduguy @The_Sidewinder @Stag112

 

[aakash_2410]

What is India's end game with Pakistan.

All jokes and insults aside, as a 180 million and possible 200 million people country, as well as right next to India, India cannot ignore Pakistan as a nation. Any suggestion that it can is frankly not based in reality.

China and Japan will make up once this bs with the US is over, but seeing a lot of the comments, obviously this forum is filled with nationalistic dudes, it doesn't look bright for a possible reconciliation between the two.

What is the actual facts on the ground, can a truth be reached, if not friendship.

India doesn't have an end game with Pakistan. In fact India would hardly notice it, if it wasn't for constant bickering and proxy war. The only issue both the countries have is Kashmir.

Being the bigger power India is very comfortable with status quo in terms of Kashmir. We can put it on the back burner for decades but, it is Pakistan that wants to internationalise the Kashmir issue which they haven't had any success in so far.

Both countries being the successor of British India, Pakistan sees itself as an equal to India. Hence, they feel the need to have India bogged down in it's immediate neighbourhood (Similar to what US wants India to play vis a vis China). Any elevation of India or any power projection by India outside south asia is not appreciated by them. Whether be it nuclear deal, UNSC membership and so on. China has allowed indulged Pakistan for this very reason.

In the case of India in terms of China and US, it knows that its' time has not come yet. Therefore, despite being a smaller power it is quite comfortable with status quo on border disputes with China.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Indian members

@Abingdonboy @kasper95 @911 @Ankit Kumar @sarjenprabhu

There goes an old saying:

Opportunity knocks only once. You never know if you'll get another opportunity.

But in India's case this is the opposite, its the second time in our recent history opportunity to contain China is knocking on our doorstep.

The first time it was the Soviet Union, who after 1971 war asked India to join their military alliance :"Asian Collective Security Proposal" in order to contain the Chinese.

The Soviet Union's Asian Collective Security Proposal: A Club in Search of Members. | RAND

We Indians rejected this idea and did not join the same despite owing Soviets for 1971 support.

For this move, do you think the Chinese were thankful? No.

Instead of appreciating this move, In return, they gave us a nuclear Pakistan.

From the Chinese perception it was not a case of India willing to normalize ties with China, but rather China's enemies India and the Soviet Union not trusting each other and hence exploit this full maximum extent.

So in the same way for the second time a nation is requesting to join them to counter Chinese and If we chose this facade of Non-alignment again, be sure the Chinese will exploit it again.

Make no mistake Chinese are determined to harm us in every way possible, they consider us "a nation that dilutes Chinese influence worldwide". The Chinese are not bothered about our "intentions" but our "capabilities"

Their state run media has referred to us Indians as "inferior", such language is straight from the handbook of fascist regimes of WW2.
Even the ISPR despite anti-India rhetoric has never gone such disgusting level of fascism.

This narrative of China is not new, they have always had this mindset.
During the Korean war, India is overtly pro-Chinese at UN, even Indian proposed resolution was responsible for ending the Korean war. In return, the Chinese gave us 1962.
Post Mao's death in the late 1970s, when India-China ties were normalizing, the Chinese intent was to use India as a counterweight to the USA and the Soviet Union, in other words, to fight USA and Soviets to last Indian, how they are currently doing so in case of India Pakistan.

We need to communicate in a language the Chinese understand, for example in 1975 we integrated Sikkim into India.
Ever wondered why Chinese never dared a military confrontation, not even aggressive patrolling despite the same rhetoric used to justify 1962?
Because India of 1975 had 1.1 million battle hardened army, nuclear weapons plus defense pact with the Soviets.

As I have stated before.
IF today we do not take a stance against Chinese in SCS, we take a defensive stance against Chinese in IO region tomorrow.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Indian members

@Abingdonboy @kasper95 @911 @Ankit Kumar @sarjenprabhu

There goes an old saying:



But in India's case this is the opposite, its the second time in our recent history opportunity to contain China is knocking on our doorstep.

The first time it was the Soviet Union, who after 1971 war asked India to join their military alliance :"Asian Collective Security Proposal" in order to contain the Chinese.

The Soviet Union's Asian Collective Security Proposal: A Club in Search of Members. | RAND

We Indians rejected this idea and did not join the same despite owing Soviets for 1971 support.

For this move, do you think the Chinese were thankful for this move? No.

Instead of appreciating this move, In return, they gave us a nuclear Pakistan.

From the Chinese perception it was not a case of India willing to normalize ties with China, but rather China's enemies India and the Soviet Union not trusting each other and hence exploit this full maximum extent.

So in the same way for the second time a nation is requesting to join them to counter Chinese and If we chose this facade of Non-alignment again, be sure the Chinese will exploit it again.

Make no mistake Chinese are determined to harm us in every way possible, they consider us "a nation that dilutes Chinese influence worldwide". The Chinese are not bothered about our "intentions" but our "capabilities"

Their state run media has referred to us Indians as "inferior", such language is straight from the handbook of fascist regimes of WW2.
Even the ISPR despite anti-India rhetoric has never gone such disgusting level of fascism.

This narrative of China is not new, they have always had this mindset.
During the Korean war, India is overtly pro-Chinese at UN, even Indian proposed resolution was responsible for ending the Korean war. In return, the Chinese gave us 1962.
Post Mao's death in the late 1970s, when India-China ties were normalizing, the Chinese intent was to use India as a counterweight to the USA and the Soviet Union, in other words, to fight USA and Soviets to last Indian, how they are currently doing so in case of India Pakistan.

We need to communicate in a language the Chinese understand, for example in 1975 we integrated Sikkim into India.
Ever wondered why Chinese never dared a military confrontation, not even aggressive patrolling despite the same rhetoric used to justify 1962?
Because India of 1975 had 1.1 million battle hardened army, nuclear weapons plus defense pact with the Soviets.


As I have stated before.
IF today we do not take a stance against Chinese in SCS, we take a defensive stance against Chinese in IO region tomorrow.

Take a stand in SCS , but not with USA ( Another nation which wants to use India but does not want it to become powerful enough do that it takes independent decisions for its own matters. ).

Neither we own " ANYTHING " to US unlike Russia , nor we stand to gain " A PENNY " by doing joint patrols with USA.