India Placing Sukhoi's near Pak Border

[AVIAN]

sure, will do.





SOME of the mid 2008-2009 IAF Mikoyan-Gurevich 'highlights'

MIG-21 crashes in Assam
Another MiG-21 trainer crashes, pilots safe - India - NEWS - The Times of India

MiG-27 crashes near Alipurduar in WB
MiG-27 crashes near Alipurduar in WB

Mig-21 crashes near Surya Kiran, pilot killed
IAF pilot killed in Surya Kiran plane crash in Karnataka - India - NEWS - The Times of India

MiG-27 aircraft crashes
7 civilians injured as MiG-27 crashes - India - NEWS - The Times of India

Mig-21 crashes near Jodhpur
Mig-21 crashes near Jodhpur, pilot safe - India - NEWS - The Times of India

MiG-21 crashes in Upper Assam
Another MiG-21 crashes, pilot ejects safely - India - NEWS - The Times of India

Indian Mig 21 fighter aircraft crashes; pilot killed
http://www.ptinews.com/news/240820_Indian-Navy-fighter-aircraft-crashes--pilot-killed

MIG 21 crashes in Punjab, pilot killed
MIG 21 crashes in Punjab, pilot killed





sure, will do.



rest of the article is here:

Russia blames India for MiG crashes,Security Issues, News Analysis, India News Online




Those are the "theories" of the manufacturer.





well it seems that HALS magical ability to keep the migs-21s and other workhorse aircrafts OUT of the sky is saying something. Su30s in IAF are essentially brand new aircrafts with much service life left in them if maintained properly. But after the loss of the first flanker, iaf grounded its entire fleet of flankers for almost a month! Given HALs previous maintenance record plus the fact that iaf is purchasing inferior parts for its aircrafts, i have reason to have doubts over the airworthiness of these aircrafts perhaps 5-10 years down the line. Even the Mig-21s are still WIDELY used in the fleets of many Air Forces of the world, and the only one with the *atrocious * crash record would be that of the hindustany air force.

No offence intended, but I would like to say that "Ignorant always aims for the Moon" as far as above post is concerned. You easily highlighted Russian part of the stories and made it as a basis for discrediting IAF and subsequently HAL. It seems to me that you need to read the following, if you ever found that it may not be accomodating your style of posting.

Defence officials unsettled

The Indian defence establishment was left scrambling by the first-ever Russian allegation that the IAF’s MiG-series aircraft were crashing because of use of “low quality” spares, writes Laskar.

Neither the Defence Ministry nor the IAF issued an official reaction to Barkovsky’s comments that New Delhi had been creating conditions for frequent crashes by buying spares of doubtful quality from former East Bloc countries.

A senior IAF official, who did not want to be named, however, said the allegation was apparently a “desperate sales pitch” from Russia, which is increasingly losing its dominant position in the Indian arms market.

“The MiG Corporation is a sales corporation, and every arms manufacturer wants to project his weapon system or product as being better than others,” the official said. “When India begins purchasing products from other sources, a vendor’s interests are bound to be affected,” the official added.

India, which began an ambitious drive to modernise its armed forces following the Kargil border conflict with Pakistan in mid-1999, emerged as the world’s second largest arms buyer last year. According to a U.S. Congressional report, India concluded defence deals worth $4.8 billion.

Russia emerged as the second largest supplier of defence hardware after the U.S. during the same period, making sales worth $7.4 billion. Russia’s two main clients are China and India.

Sources in the IAF said India had begun purchasing spares from countries like Poland after supplies from Moscow were disrupted following the break-up of the erstwhile Soviet Union. Emergency purchase of spares for MiG aircraft was also made during the Kargil conflict.

The former IAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal S.K. Kaul, said most problems with MiG-series aircraft arose from design faults, and not the spares used in them.

“We had major problems with the MiG-29’s engines and airframe. A Russian team came to India to sort them out,” said Kaul, who headed the IAF during 1993-95. It was during his tenure that the IAF began purchasing spares from sources other than Russia.

“No hardware manufacturer wants to acknowledge faults with his equipment. If there was nothing wrong with the MiG-21, why have so many modifications been made to it?” he said.

The former Air Chief dismissed Barkovsky’s claims that the IAF had not given the MiG Corporation full details of accidents, preventing corrective measures from being put in place. “This is baloney,” he said.

The spares obtained from sources other than Russia, Kaul said, were purchased only after rigorous quality control checks. “Besides, all these spares were made using the MiG Corporation’s technology, whether they were produced directly or by sub-contractors. Would we be fools to put sub-standard spares in our aircraft?”

Kaul claimed that the Russian allegations were apparently due to the MiG Corporation’s fears that it would lose out on lucrative contracts to upgrade the IAF’s MiG-series aircraft.

Although the IAF is currently upgrading 125 MiG-21s with Russian assistance, New Delhi has been looking to other countries, including Israel, for help in extending the life of its Mig-27 and MiG-29 aircraft.




No go through the rest and tell me your style of thinking. And regarding MKI's grounding for the month after the crash, I would like to have a link for that rather then hot air.

More pertinently & relevantly, if a few older tech Anza-Is and IIs proved their worth in 1999 (i believe some of your pilots became well acquainted with them ) --then i think dispatching a few Spada-2000s and a few small teams of Army A.D. with RBS-70 laser guided shaped-charge armour piercing SAMs would suffice against the flanker threat. I am not even talking about PAF interception, just ground air defence.

If you are apparently referring to Kargil Air war, Let me enlighten you, IAF lost only Mig-21 and Helicopter gunship to your great Anza's. Mig-27 apparently crash due to engine failure and pilot of this aircraft was in Pakistan's custody itself to gave his account but still to boost the morale, Pakistan paints the picture of shotting down Mig-27 as well, despite the fact that none of the those manpads could hit it.

As i said earlier, with a steady eye and hand the RBS system by itself would prove to be reasonably effective -as CM would have little impact on its trajectory

For that matter, Modern airforces in the world use something regarded as a SEAD.

 

[IceCold]

Hi,

By the time the incoming aircraft is over the base in occupied kashmir---the su 30 pilot may not even be able to get to his plane, start his engine and take off---the flt time from 5 miles inside pak border to being over the indian forward base in occupied kashmir is what---5 minutes or what.

It is basically for show----tactically---it is in poor judgement----a plane that has a 4---6 hours plus loiter time has no reason to be posted so close to the border----.

I would say that the PAF would be happy to oblige iaf by taking these planes on the tarmac.

What a trophy would that be----30 plus su 30's neutralized while they were parked.

Poltically it is a very threatening posture---there was no need for it.

Sir what if a cruise missile is fired at them, i suppose it will take them much more quietly and stealthy.

 

[faisal4pro]

Sir what if a cruise missile is fired at them, i suppose it will take them much more quietly and stealthy.

haha.. but war is not at all the solution! so better kill them silently!

 

[PakShaheen79]

haha.. but war is not at all the solution! so better kill them silently!

Dont have a Chankiya with us to tell us HOW...?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

So rather than blame HALs decision to use inferior spare parts from non-OEM sources, you will blame the design of the Mig-21???? Please tell me why this widely used Mig-21 never has seen such atrocious crash records as that of the IAF?

I am not seeking to smear the IAF. I recognize it as a professional air force. But the problem is the technicians and top brass who are in charge of acquisitions, not the pilots. It's the pilots who are dying because of the sub-standard maintenance procedures.


As for the Anzas, as I said, they proved their worth. There is no proof that the Mig-27 crashed due to flameout. Most of the components were found in Pakistani territory as you are well aware.












p.s.

NEW DELHI SEPT. 5. The only complete squadron of India's frontline Sukhoi-30 fighters has been grounded following detection of "nicks'' in the engine blades. The Indian Air Force wants the defective parts replaced free of cost but the manufacturers are reluctant because the warranty period has expired.

The IAF has threatened to stall a long-term contract for the supply and indigenous manufacture of improved versions of this plane unless its makers made amends immediately, informed sources said.

Other sources in the Air Headquarters admitted to the problem of nicks but said flying had been staggered prior to their despatch to Russia for routine checks. Planes are regularly checked and nicks of a certain size and amount are permitted. Otherwise the blades are changed. According to warranty terms, these planes of `Sukhoi-30 MK' make are due to be upgraded by 2006.

India currently has 28 Sukhoi planes based at the Lohegaon IAF base at Pune. The first batch of 18 is of Sukhoi-30 K make (NATO name `Flanker') and arrived in 1997-98. The remaining 10 of the improved `MKI' make arrived recently. The problem, according to informed sources, is with the first lot comprising the No. 24 Hunting Hawk squadron, the IAF's main high performance fighter fleet. With slight modification, these planes are considered ideal for delivery of nuclear weapons because of their long range. They are certain to find a place in the newly created Strategic Forces Command, which will oversee all nuclear delivery systems such as warships, submarines, missiles and aircraft.

Informed sources said the rub lies in the fact that the IAF currently has too few multi-role combat planes. The number will increase after 22 Sukhoi-30 MKI arrive from Russia, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) makes another 140 and some French planes are purchased in due course. As a result, the IAF does not want to wait for a couple of years for the scheduled upgrade of these `K' variants to `MKI'.

Other sources, however, were confident that the crisis would blow over. "Nicks happen all the time but the contract with Sukhoi is for a very long period. Their people have been at hand at the base for some time and will continue to be around till all the three versions of the plane are ready," said the sources.

Informed sources point out that the main reason for the selection of Sukhois over competitors such as Mirage-2000 was the considerably lower costs, including life cycle costs. Irkut should, therefore, make an exception and take a close look at these aircraft, especially because the 18 planes, on an average, are only halfway through their technical lives.

However, the Russian company has never been busier. Last year, it accounted for nearly one-thirds of the total Russian armament exports and this year it began supplying Sukhoi planes to Malaysia besides the two lucrative tie-ups with India and China. It appears to be a tough call for both IAF and Irkut. The problem with Sukhoi spares has not occurred for the first time.

IAF officials say that in the past, poor product support as a result of the failure of Irkut to supply the spares already contracted for had led to decrease of average serviceability from 69 per cent in 1997-98 to 62 per cent in 1998-99.

This was because the price quoted by the manufacturer was inconsistent and abnormally high which resulted in delay in finalising the general spares contract

Here is more from intelligence on line :

Engine snags ground IAF Su-30 frontline fighters
4 September 2003: Most of India’s frontline fighter aircraft, the Russian-built Su-30, have developed serious engine snags and been grounded, and the Indian Air Force headquarters suspects lax and careless engine-testing at Sukhoi.

Forty-one engines of twenty-eight Su-30MKs and MKIs seized up after just four-thousand hours of flying, and while the first priority is to quickly send them out for restoration, the air force HQ is also studying the contract with Sukhoi about liability and calculating the restoration costs.

The IAF has one squadron of eighteen Su-30MKs and another of ten Su-30MKIs while Russia has yet to deliver twenty-two more Su-30MKIs by early 2004 under a deal for fifty aircraft signed in 1996 but modified in 1998.

Defence officials say that India~s trust in Russian defence manufacturers has been smashed by the engine snags.

Sukhoi-30MKI is a two-seater, twin-engine, multirole fighter which can carry a variety of medium-range guided air-to-air missiles, and it was dubbed the “pride of Indian Air Force” when it was inducted into the service.

India and Russia signed a $1.8-billion contract in November 1966 for forty Su-30MKIs and an additional deal was signed in December 1998 for purchase of ten more fighters, and Russia promised to complete upgradation and delivery by 2004-05

Related link: http://www.hindu.com/2003/09/06/stories/20...90605730100.htm

 

[AVIAN]

So rather than blame HALs decision to use inferior spare parts from non-OEM sources, you will blame the design of the Mig-21???? Please tell me why this widely used Mig-21 never has seen such atrocious crash records as that of the IAF?

May I know which airforce in the world has seen lowest Mig-21 crashes? which is making you to transfer complete blaim on IAF?

I am not seeking to smear the IAF. I recognize it as a professional air force. But the problem is the technicians and top brass who are in charge of acquisitions, not the pilots. It's the pilots who are dying because of the sub-standard maintenance procedures.

May I have link about Sub-standard maintenance procedures?

As for the Anzas, as I said, they proved their worth. There is no proof that the Mig-27 crashed due to flameout. Most of the components were found in Pakistani territory as you are well aware.

Huh! when did I said anything which can spoil the image of anaza? and regarding the proof, well, you have a complete world of internet at one click of button where you can find numerous proofs for that.

Regarding the link, I knew that you won't find any source for the for the grounding of MKI for a whole month since it was your own creation. And the link that you have posted ain't working either but at the same time it is six years old. And yes, there was a problems in engine blade in few aircrafts which were rectified in due course of time.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

May I know which airforce in the world has seen lowest Mig-21 crashes? which is making you to transfer complete blaim on IAF?

you're just flip-flopping. Do you REALLY need me to show you the evidence or are you smart enough to at least know that IAF does in fact have the worst record in the world regarding crashes of mig21s

May I have link about Sub-standard maintenance procedures?

i already sent them to you......indians buy inferior parts from former soviet countries, some which have even exceeded shelf life and are of zero utility


i also sent you a few links of air crashes (mere examples).

Unless, of course, you can prove that those can be attributed to pilot error, which you can't

yes, there was a problems in engine blade in few aircrafts which were rectified in due course of time.

the one that crashed had a failure in the fly-by-wire system....at least as per your defence minister.












Russian experts summoned as IAF’s Sukhoi fleet still grounded

NEW DELHI - The Indian Air Force (IAF) has summoned Russian experts to inspect its fleet of frontline Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat jets following the crash of one of the aircraft.

‘Russian experts have been summoned to inspect the aircraft’s airframe and systems. Until then, the fleet will remain grounded,’ an IAF officer told IANS, requesting anonymity.

The IAF grounded its fleet of approximately 55 Russian-origin Su-30s after one of the aircraft crashed last week. Generally, an entire fleet is not grounded if an aircraft of a particular type crashes. In the case of the Su-30, however, there have been ‘recurring complaints’ by pilots about problems with the jet.

The grounding of the Su-30 fleet has given rise to the alarming possibility of ’structural faults’ with the aircraft.

In a blot on its otherwise unblemished record, a Su-30MKI crashed in Jaisalmer April 30, killing the co-pilot. The pilot, Wing Commander S.V. Munje, and the co-pilot, Wing Commander P.S. Narah, managed to bail out in time but Narah was killed after he was apparently hit by the falling debris of the aircraft.

(rest of article available here --> Russian experts summoned as IAF’s Sukhoi fleet still grounded)








p.s. you still havent explained your reasoning or justification for placing the blame on "design flaws" of the Mig-21 which led to the many crashes and accidents IAF has encountered in past few years.....

 

[AVIAN]

you're just flip-flopping. Do you REALLY need me to show you the evidence or are you smart enough to at least know that IAF does in fact have the worst record in the world regarding crashes of mig21s

Ok, I retract back.

i already sent them to you......indians buy inferior parts from former soviet countries, some which have even exceeded shelf life and are of zero utility


i also sent you a few links of air crashes (mere examples).

You sent me nothing, merely whatever you sent was only to support your basis and rest of the part you easily dropped since it wasn't smashing you assumption on your face. Go and read my post in this very page quoting your own link and enlighten yourself. But for your ease I posting it again.

"Sources in the IAF said India had begun purchasing spares from countries like Poland after supplies from Moscow were disrupted following the break-up of the erstwhile Soviet Union. Emergency purchase of spares for MiG aircraft was also made during the Kargil conflict.

The former IAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal S.K. Kaul, said most problems with MiG-series aircraft arose from design faults, and not the spares used in them.

“We had major problems with the MiG-29’s engines and airframe. A Russian team came to India to sort them out,” said Kaul, who headed the IAF during 1993-95. It was during his tenure that the IAF began purchasing spares from sources other than Russia.

“No hardware manufacturer wants to acknowledge faults with his equipment. If there was nothing wrong with the MiG-21, why have so many modifications been made to it?” he said.

The former Air Chief dismissed Barkovsky’s claims that the IAF had not given the MiG Corporation full details of accidents, preventing corrective measures from being put in place. “This is baloney,” he said.

The spares obtained from sources other than Russia, Kaul said, were purchased only after rigorous quality control checks. “Besides, all these spares were made using the MiG Corporation’s technology, whether they were produced directly or by sub-contractors. Would we be fools to put sub-standard spares in our aircraft?”

Kaul claimed that the Russian allegations were apparently due to the MiG Corporation’s fears that it would lose out on lucrative contracts to upgrade the IAF’s MiG-series aircraft."

Unless, of course, you can prove that those can be attributed to pilot error, which you can't

Why I do need to the same, since onus of proving solely lies with you.

the one that crashed had a failure in the fly-by-wire system....at least as per your defence minister.

But where did I denied that?

Russian experts summoned as IAF’s Sukhoi fleet still grounded




(rest of article available here --> Russian experts summoned as IAF’s Sukhoi fleet still grounded)

Sigh, none of the above mentioned sentence in provided link support your claim of grounding of MKI for the month. Please have one more try.

p.s. you still havent explained your reasoning or justification for placing the blame on "design flaws" of the Mig-21 which led to the many crashes and accidents IAF has encountered in past few years.....

Please point out in previous post, where did I blaimed Mig-21 for its design flaw, rather it was in my link and according to which IAF has placing blaim on its design, and any case I would like believe IAF's part of the story rather then yours which is nothing but a hot air.

 

[Javed3]

Placing SU-30’s in Adampur is a very real threat indeed; and cannot be just wished away. With an enormous internal fuel fraction, and combat radius, the Sukhoi’s do not have to be placed so close to Pakistan’s border.

This threatening gesture has emerged at a time while PAF and PA is fully occupied in waging war against terror, while supporting the US war efforts in Afghanistan. The US should use its influence on India to restrain them from such unnecessary provocations.

 

[AVIAN]

Placing SU-30’s in Adampur is a very real threat indeed; and cannot be just wished away. With an enormous internal fuel fraction, and combat radius, the Sukhoi’s do not have to be placed so close to Pakistan’s border.

This threatening gesture has emerged at a time while PAF and PA is fully occupied in waging war against terror, while supporting the US war efforts in Afghanistan. The US should use its influence on India to restrain them from such unnecessary provocations.

This is not a part of the provocation, you cannot take things for granted. Because by just stationing an MKI will not going to make a tons of difference. It is usual rotational shifting of aircraft to get familiar with Mission environment.

 

[third eye]

Placing SU-30’s in Adampur is a very real threat indeed; and cannot be just wished away. With an enormous internal fuel fraction, and combat radius, the Sukhoi’s do not have to be placed so close to Pakistan’s border.

This threatening gesture has emerged at a time while PAF and PA is fully occupied in waging war against terror, while supporting the US war efforts in Afghanistan. The US should use its influence on India to restrain them from such unnecessary provocations.

I do not see it as a provocation at all. If the aircraft have been obtained they have to be placed somewhere.

In any case whether they take off from assam or the andaman islands and get refueled in mid air in Indian airspace and get employed outside India or they take off form airfield close to the borders - the net effect is the same.

 

[Comet]

Hi,

By the time the incoming aircraft is over the base in occupied kashmir---the su 30 pilot may not even be able to get to his plane, start his engine and take off---the flt time from 5 miles inside pak border to being over the indian forward base in occupied kashmir is what---5 minutes or what.

It is basically for show----tactically---it is in poor judgement----a plane that has a 4---6 hours plus loiter time has no reason to be posted so close to the border----.

I would say that the PAF would be happy to oblige iaf by taking these planes on the tarmac.

What a trophy would that be----30 plus su 30's neutralized while they were parked.

Poltically it is a very threatening posture---there was no need for it.

Hey, I said the same on the other thread..... Hope this really is the strategy of PAF.

 

[wangrong]

mig29A Cockpit

 

[princeofdubai]

nice carry on guys

 

[Kompromat]

I think this is good move as this will be beneficial for surgical stikes of terrorist camps if need arises and if they fancy another attack within Indian soil.

But I would prefer drones over them.

Cruize missiles loaded with , Cluster warheads , enough to destroy all airbases near our border.

Rest of them , by the time they will fly their aircrafts , Shaheen's would be on their way!

Hope it helps