India-Pakistan - Reconciliation?

[su-47]

I am not a fan of Bollywood. A lot of Bollywood movies are just soppy romances or are just too shallow. also, i am not a fan of music where a hundred extras appear out of nowhere and the hero and heroine start dancing in front of the Eiffel tower or the Great Wall, and the music blazes out of nowhere, and everyone performs dance moves perfectly. Its just too corny for me.

However, some movies like Lagaan, Chak de India and Swades are really good. They have good stories.

 

[DarkStar]

I am not a fan of Bollywood. A lot of Bollywood movies are just soppy romances or are just too shallow. also, i am not a fan of music where a hundred extras appear out of nowhere and the hero and heroine start dancing in front of the Eiffel tower or the Great Wall, and the music blazes out of nowhere, and everyone performs dance moves perfectly. Its just too corny for me.

However, some movies like Lagaan, Chak de India and Swades are really good. They have good stories.

i liked swades. I would add Nagesh kukkunoor's Iqbal, and Amir Khan's Tare Zameen Par to this.

 

[Vinod2070]

I also feel that the music and the dance are given in too much overdoze in Hindi movies. And the latest trend of the "item number" is crappy too. They don't help the movie's storyline most of the time and seem to be forced. They just have to force it in a dream sequence just to fit them in.

But surprisingly, there are many fans of this genre. Desis as well as some small numbers of dedicated firangis. These firangs are from as unlikely places as Germany etc.

And then there is a large audience in SE Asea, Africa, LATAM etc. Many people in the developing world can identify with the sensibilities and the over emtional appeal of these movies.

 

[su-47]

The dance scenes are actually a phenomenon with indian movies, not just bollywood. Malayalam, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada movies etc have dance scenes and songs popping out of nowhere, just like Bollywood.

 

[DarkStar]

I also feel that the music and the dance are given in too much overdoze in Hindi movies. And the latest trend of the "item number" is crappy too. They don't help the movie's storyline most of the time and seem to be forced. They just have to force it in a dream sequence just to fit them in.

But surprisingly, there are many fans of this genre. Desis as well as some small numbers of dedicated firangis. These firangs are from as unlikely places as Germany etc.

And then there is a large audience in SE Asea, Africa, LATAM etc. Many people in the developing world can identify with the sensibilities and the over emtional appeal of these movies.

Indian cinema has a huge following among Arabs, Moroccons, Israelis, some Russians, Iranians, and a lot more in east asia.

There is a famous story about Nehru visiting Russia, and one of the russian children there waving a flag asked Nehru if he was Dilip Kumar. Nehru did not know much about Dilip kumar then, and was quite surprised. As soon as he went back to India, he invited this cultural Ambassador of India, and gave him a few minutes of his time. However, when he got to meet Dilip Kumar, the meeting lasted for ages, and they held intimate discussions. Nehru was so impressed by him that he was given permission to come to Rashtrapati Bhavan whenver he wanted to, and they became firm friends.

It is true, that Indian cinema has given the country a lot of positive exposure, in places you wouldn't even think of.

It can only be hoped that this power is used to promote good relations with its neighbours.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sorry to inform you but your idea of developing a movie industry around films like KKL and RP is probably not going to work. If anything, the taste in movies on both sides of the border is pretty much the same.

I agree that many, in India and Pakistan, will continue to look towards the 'escapism' of the Bollwood/Hollywood style, but I also think that the market for KKL and RP style films exists, in Pakistan at least.

I say that because Pakistani society is relatively more conservative, and I personally just don't see families flocking with young kids to a lot of the Dhoom sexuality/sensuality ridden movies. Movies like Lagaan etc., yes I agree, they will be hits on both sides of the border, but in their absence movies like KKL and RP can tap into that market to make Pakistani cinema mainstream again.

Right now Pakistani Cinema seems to be considered a vulgar thing, with families mostly staying away, and I just don't see that changing unless the product is changed to fit in more with the nature of Pakistani society. KKL was amongst a handful of movies recently to draw more diverse crowds to the theatres. Diversifying the audience and revamping the reputation of Pakistani cinema to be more acceptable to the mainstream can only be done with movies like those.

 

[cooldude]

Guys, lets get back to our friendship. I agree India and Pakistan have Bollywood in common but Bolloywood is not the title of this thread. I really liked the concept of this thread. I have Pakistani friends and they are great people. I am sure Pakistani`s feel the same way about Indians they meet and interact with. And I hope we can convince a few people on this forum that Pakistan-India friendship is a good idea.

 

[jeypore]

Guys, lets get back to our friendship. I agree India and Pakistan have Bollywood in common but Bolloywood is not the title of this thread. I really liked the concept of this thread. I have Pakistani friends and they are great people. I am sure Pakistani`s feel the same way about Indians they meet and interact with. And I hope we can convince a few people on this forum that Pakistan-India friendship is a good idea.

You are trying to accomplish Mr. cooldude that has not been done for last 60 years, and that is the hard fact reality. Apart from food and language being similar, there are vast difference between the two culture. From idelogy to India's infamous word of self-reliance creates a friction in the two socities.

 

[DarkStar]

self-reliance. The veritable pipe-dream of popular Bharati imagination.

When India lose this facade of secularism, and accept that they are a Hindu state, is when progress will start being made.

Just like Nehru,Gandhi,Patel couldn't digest the fact that the Muslim League were representatives of the muslim people in India, the same way India cannot accept that it must deal with Pakistan in a spirit of reciprocity and Equalness.

The greatest chance of peace, recently, was with the BJP government. Hindutva forces are teh only ones which can legitimately and honestly conclude a peace process with Pakistan. This is because they do not have to live up to the fiction of secularism, and can go straight to the issues.

If there is peace between India and pakistan, teh Congress created fiction of Secularism will die its own death. Congress will never allow that to happen, which is why they will never sincerely work for peace.

 

[jeypore]

self-reliance. The veritable pipe-dream of popular Bharati imagination.

When India lose this facade of secularism, and accept that they are a Hindu state, is when progress will start being made.

Just like Nehru,Gandhi,Patel couldn't digest the fact that the Muslim League were representatives of the muslim people in India, the same way India cannot accept that it must deal with Pakistan in a spirit of reciprocity and Equalness.

The greatest chance of peace, recently, was with the BJP government. Hindutva forces are teh only ones which can legitimately and honestly conclude a peace process with Pakistan. This is because they do not have to live up to the fiction of secularism, and can go straight to the issues.

If there is peace between India and pakistan, teh Congress created fiction of Secularism will die its own death. Congress will never allow that to happen, which is why they will never sincerely work for peace.

You are taking the word self-reliance in a tangent here. This word represent India in all it struggles around the world and every Indian takes this word by heart. Infact, the word self-reliance was utter by no other then Gandhi (father of our nation). Where the representation of a cotton wheel (symbolism of self-reliance) on an Indian flag was ponder at a time in history. You are turning this word into petty social issue, but the representation of self-reliance was in largely in a global scale, which includeds all Indians.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^ Nonetheless, one must admit that the economic growth of India has been based not on self reliance, but globalisation, and the global cooperative marketplace. India's strategic rise will also be because the existing powers deemed it in their interests to allow her to join the club, not because India herself presented a winning argument, or pushed her way to the top through sheer force.

Self-reliance is just a buzzword in today's interconnected world.

 

[jeypore]

^^^ Nonetheless, one must admit that the economic growth of India has been based not on self reliance, but globalisation, and the global cooperative marketplace. India's strategic rise will also be because the existing powers deemed it in their interests to allow her to join the club, not because India herself presented a winning argument, or pushed her way to the top through sheer force.

Self-reliance is just a buzzword in today's interconnected world.

You are right about that Mr. AM because the word "self-reliance", take literally would have taken India into brink of socialism and I believe it did before India went broke. Hence, the cause of opening the market did tarnish the word.

 

[Vinod2070]

I don't think Pakistanis need to be too concerned with whether India is a secular or a theological country. Its something for us to decide and we have made our choice keeping our conditions in mind.

People like DS have a vested interest in pointing out the failures of secularism as it is in direct conflict with Pakistan's ideology and they feel a compelling need to justify the TNT at every step after 60 years. And that can only be done by rubbishing India and the ideology of India. That is where the 150 million "research" came from in the other thread.

That is why the constant need to claim that India should be demolished. Why this hatred in followers of the religion of peace? Why the need to denigrate your previous identity all the time? Does it come from any insecurities? The need to prove yourself more Islamic than the Arabs? Not comfortable in the skin?

The funny thing is they vigorously want to take advantage of secularism when they are a minority. They demand full religious rights and more when they are in a minority but deny them to others when in majority. Kind of like the hypocritical Saudis who deny any non-Islamic religious worship place in their country while shamelessly building a mosque in Rome and sponsoring Madressas in India just because these secular countries are not as bigoted as them.

And why the muddled attempt to mix "self reliance" with secularism? A bit incoherent I guess.

 

[Flintlock]

self-reliance. The veritable pipe-dream of popular Bharati imagination.

When India lose this facade of secularism, and accept that they are a Hindu state, is when progress will start being made.

Just like Nehru,Gandhi,Patel couldn't digest the fact that the Muslim League were representatives of the muslim people in India, the same way India cannot accept that it must deal with Pakistan in a spirit of reciprocity and Equalness.

The greatest chance of peace, recently, was with the BJP government. Hindutva forces are teh only ones which can legitimately and honestly conclude a peace process with Pakistan. This is because they do not have to live up to the fiction of secularism, and can go straight to the issues.

If there is peace between India and pakistan, teh Congress created fiction of Secularism will die its own death. Congress will never allow that to happen, which is why they will never sincerely work for peace.

This makes little sense darkStar, I do appreciate the ingenuity of your theories, but that doesn't make them correct.

I can understand that you have a hard time accepting that India is a secular state while Pakistan isn't. That doesn't mean that India cannot or should not be a secular country. Secularism is one of the big ideas of the modern age that can take a nation to great heights - the separation of religious myths from state policies.

If the BJP does come to power, that doesn't change the fact that India is a secular country. its astrologers do not predict the future and the parliament does not conduct yagnas. Its primary laws do not seek to protect any religious beliefs.

If however, Hinduism does rise as a militant force under the ideology of revenging the atrocities perpetrated by the muslims over the last thousand years and reconquering territory, you can kiss peace goodbye.
Spain did it - it took hundreds of years, but they did it. That was the era of cultural nationalism.

Our era is trying something different - we are trying to stop the cycle of conquest and re-conquest by hoping to accommodate all peoples and establish common ground. India, being home to a fifth of humanity, has an especially large part if the dream is to come true.

 

[Contrarian]

^^^ Nonetheless, one must admit that the economic growth of India has been based not on self reliance, but globalisation, and the global cooperative marketplace. India's strategic rise will also be because the existing powers deemed it in their interests to allow her to join the club, not because India herself presented a winning argument, or pushed her way to the top through sheer force.

You are completely wrong on this one. The big powers did not realize 20 years back when India started on a new path, that they would aid and abett India. They put sanctions on us, sanctions that were there till a couple of months ago and many that still are. Sanctions that were put exactly a decade ago.

India has grown on the basis of her own strengths, not because the big powers decided to let India's economy grow. Just like China, they have grown in their economy because of the strengths of their nation-manufacturing you can say, not because the big powers decided to let China grow.

It was India's own weight, of a growing economy, a growing military and a growing clout, that made them or i can say forced them(read US) to think that a rising India that is aligned or principally supportive of them is a world better than one that is inimical to them and their interests. This realization of the US has come in the last 5 years, that is after India had proven that regardless of their approach, India was going to grow to become the dominant power of this region.