India, Pakistan and the Battle for Afghanistan

[jeypore]

Karzai, Feb 2006:[/B]

Dubbing Durand line as a line of hatred Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said he does not accept this line as it has raised a wall between the two brothers.

http://www.afghannews.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=201

And this link, is afterall, unlike you AGNO, I think, I have never gone to this dark tunnel!!!!

 

[Ahmad]

Indigenous Pamiri Tajiks of Pakistan are a very small minority. They number around 50,000 to 100,000 only. The rest are Afghan Tajiks as refugees and some Tajik Immigrants from Tajikistan.

and don't worry I am here to support you.. you have my full Punjabi support shielding you like a human shield...

Most Pakistanis on this forum don't know that the real enemy of Pakistan from Western Side are not Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks etc (who are already opressed groups of Afghanistan), but Afghan Pashtuns Nationalists. I have spent enough time with Afghans. therefore I know them inside out. Pakistanis think that Pakistani Pashtoonz are loyal to Pakistan, therefore Afghan Pashtoonz are PRO-Pakistan, which is utterly wrong. It is just like Azeris of Iran and Azeribaijan. Most Azeri of Iran are PRO-IRAN as they make up the Tehrani Elite and virtually control the country, while Azerbaijani Azeri are Anti-iran as is evidenced from this forum. It doesn't mean if the people BELONG to same ethnic group, they have the same thinking too. For example. Pakistani Punjabis are PRO-Pakistan, while Indian-Punjabis (especially Sikhs) are Anti-Pakistan... Sikhs are highly represented in Indian Army.

And you are fully allowed to criticize the Pakistani Government constructively, I don't have any problem with that. Most of us here are not big fans of Pakistani government either. But when Afghan Pashtoonz start dissing Punjabis and everything associated with them, whether it is our food, culture, clothing, history, then I have to retaliate back.

And you know HOW I landed on random Afghan forums? i was searching for some Punjabi Dishes and Clothes and I ended up on Afghan Forums... and I was amazed to see that every second thread on Afghan forums was about Punjabis or end up about Punjabis (if you are a member of some Afghan forum you already know that).. how we look, how we dress, how we eat lol!.. Well I am kinda happy that Afghans are obsessed with us Punjabis to such extent!

Thanks alot. We have never had any problem with People of Pakistan on the basis of ethnicity, it is their internal issue, there is no reason why should we have any concern over this. if some other people from afghanistan raise this issue then Pakistanis in pakistan and here in this forum should know who wants what and dont just start firing indiscriminately on everyone. thanks for understanding and hope one day we all put the differences(we dont have any difference anyway if we see it from the right angles) behind. i think people of afghanistan know more about pakistan than pakistanis about afghanistan.

 

[Ahmad]

(if you are a member of some Afghan forum you already know that)

I used to go alot, but in some of them i have been banned permanantely so i cant go there anymore. there was only one forum which was for all people of afghanistan and very good. they were promoting good relations among the afghans as well as good relations with our neighbours, you never saw anyting bad about pakistan there. i am now a member of another forum which is for tajiks only, that is a good one. you will never see a single bad word about pakistan. they mostly talk about the problems of afghanistan, tajikistan, samarqand and bukhara(and sometimes iran as well cuz they have iranain members too) and also they talk about cultrual issue and promotion of farsi language.

 

[Ahmad]

Anywayz, if you don't have any problem with Punjabis, then I don't have any problem with Tajiks either. Tajiks are same as Persians, they are known as Eastern Persians, right? And I am a great admirer of Persian history, culture and people. You must have seen how many times I defended Iran on this forum.

Peace

Thanks alot dear sister. Somebody give me one good reason why should we be against panjabis? we have got respect to all ethnics of paksitan including panjabis and pashtoons, i have been in this forum for good few months, i have criticized pakistan alot, but has anyone seen me for a single time to have bashd or badmouthed ethnics of paksitan? although it has been pakistani officials for one and another reason dont like tajiks(again, hope we put the past aside). and yes, tajiks are persians, they are persians of east(afghanistan and central asia) andd are called tajiks, our language is farsi which is the first language of around 55%(or less) of the population of afghanistan and this language is spoken by majority of afghans either as first or second language.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I just hope Afghanistan prosopers as it will be beneficial not just to them but us also.
But just get rid of indian proxies.
Anyway ahmed i dont hate tajiks or anybody else.I do have pakistani hazara and tajik friends in my city.And well im proud of our brethern.
We almost share same culture same religion so there is no problem for us to hate our brothers.
Long live Afghanistan and Pakistan

 

[desiman]

India, Pakistan's 'proxy war'


INDIA and Pakistan, implacable South Asian rivals, are locked in a new struggle for influence in Afghanistan, which analysts say is fuelling attacks on Indian interests there.

A suicide bomb assault in Kabul last week killed seven Indians, including government employees, which followed two bomb attacks at the Indian Embassy in July 2008 and October 2009.

"The attacks are aimed at forcing India to withdraw from Afghanistan," Mr Rahul Roy-Chaudhury, a South Asia specialist at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies said.

"Both India and Pakistan are trying to limit each other's influence as they have competing interests."

After more than two decades without sway in Kabul, India swiftly established diplomatic ties with the new government there after the 2001 American-led invasion deposed the extremist Taliban.

New Delhi has poured money into the country since, becoming the largest regional donor with US$1.3 billion ($1.8 billion) in aid.

About 4,000 Indians are busy building roads, sanitation projects and power lines in the volatile country. Even the Afghan Parliament building is being built by Indians.

It is this steadily accumulating "soft power" in a country Pakistan sees as its backyard that has stoked insecurities in Islamabad, analysts say.

"Pakistan has existential concerns about Indian involvement in Afghanistan, as they see it as a form of encirclement," said Mr J Alexander Thier of the Washington-based United States Institute of Peace.

"Pakistan relies on Afghanistan for 'strategic depth' - it would support Pakistan in the event of another war with India," added Mr Thier, an Afghan-Pakistan expert.

In Islamabad, the government is clear that it sees India's involvement in Afghanistan as a danger and an "unnecessary complication".

"We have strong evidence (that India is) using Afghanistan against Pakistan's interests and to destabilise Pakistan," Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Abdul Basit said. "Obviously we do have concerns vis-a-vis India," he added.

Pakistan and India have fought three wars since their independence in 1947, two of them sparked by the divided region of Kashmir. A third was over East Pakistan, now Bangladesh.

They started a slow-moving peace process in 2004, which was derailed in November 2008 when gunmen attacked the Indian city of Mumbai, killing 166 people.

New Delhi accuses Pakistan of supporting militants that target India and the government saw the hand of the Pakistani intelligence agencies in the embassy attacks in Kabul.

"Increasingly, Pakistan and India have become engaged in some kind of proxy war in Afghanistan," said Pakistani analyst Rahimullah Yusufzai. "That is not only destabilising Afghanistan but also impacting on the very uneasy relationship between Pakistan and India."

Mr C U Bhaskar, who heads the National Maritime Foundation think-tank in New Delhi, agrees.

"All these terrorist attacks have links with Pakistan either by way of material support or sanctuary (for the perpetrators)," he told AFP.

Islamabad denies supporting militants and points to its own fight against the Taliban in Pakistan, which has been blamed for an intensifying campaign of blasts and suicide attacks in the country. AFP

TODAYonline | Comment | Analysis | India, Pakistan's 'proxy war'

 

[jinxeD_girl]

i think people of afghanistan know more about pakistan than pakistanis about afghanistan.

They do? Good for them...

 

[jeypore]

Our Army's success has been excellant as compare to those of the others who are fighting this war, your deductions about our successes is deprived of truth and is based on the Indian glasses you r adoning.

I guess you can prove this compare to NATO forces that are in your area. Give a really a hard link of what you are saying above, since it would show that Pakistan is fighting really hard on Terrorism Globally..

 

[jeypore]

"We have strong evidence (that India is) using Afghanistan against Pakistan's interests and to destabilise Pakistan," Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Abdul Basit said. "Obviously we do have concerns vis-a-vis India," he added.

TODAYonline | Comment | Analysis | India, Pakistan's 'proxy war'

Mr. Desiman, I have been a harsh person for you, but clearly read the sentence above, since you have posted for brotherhood. The problem with that sentence is there is no proof, and that relates to people in this forum as equally as the great Mr. Abdul Basit (the great foreign Ministry of Pakistan). Do You get it, Mr. brotherhood.......

 

[Ahmad]

They do? Good for them...

dont get me wrong, they dont know everything, as you rightly mentioned some people mix panjabi with urdo speakers. but again, it depends on whom you are talking to. if we compare the 2 people, pakistani fellows are the least informed ones.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

dont get me wrong, they dont know everything, as you rightly mentioned some people mix panjabi with urdo speakers. but again, it depends on whom you are talking to. if we compare the 2 people, pakistani fellows are the least informed ones.

Ahmad I was joking.. you take everything was too seriously...

 

[TechLahore]

You are wrong there brother, Afghanistan has historically been very close to India. We share a very friendly and strong relationship with them. Pakistan being the closest neighbor is obviously the closest but you cannot say its ONLY Pakistan. And India is not poking its nose anywhere.

The historical relationship of Afghanistan and India is that Afghans invaded the Hindu principalities in Northern India repeatedly.

 

[Ahmad]

Ahmad I was joking.. you take everything was too seriously...

LOL, ok, i thought you were serious.

 

[Ahmad]

The historical relationship of Afghanistan and India is that Afghans invaded the Hindu principalities in Northern India repeatedly.

Pakistan was also invaded from the west and so was india - pakistan was part of india that time. that is history now. those invasion of india brought nothing for us. wish our rulers had done something else instead of wasting huge amount of resources to capture india. Ahmad Shah Abdali(pashtoon) invaded india and cambe back several times because he was mising his hometown, all those bloodshed of people just for nothing, why did he go there in the first place? Mahmoud Of Ghazni(His ethnicity was Turkic and his language was Farsi) also invaded india and broke a few idoles, what was the benefit of it? but mahmoud did a few other good things such as bringing a good and stable gov in Khorasan(today afghanistan) plus his excellent achievment in terms of culture and promotion of Farsi languge to the next level is absolutely unforgabtable. then the last one who invaded india was Nadir Afshar from Persia, he again invaded and came back. so i dont understand what was the benefit of all those invasions?

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Pakistan was also invaded from the west and so was india - pakistan was part of india that time. that is history now. those invasion of india brought nothing for us. wish our rulers had done something else instead of wasting huge amount of resources to capture india. Ahmad Shah Abdali(pashtoon) invaded india and cambe back several times because he was mising his hometown, all those bloodshed of people just for nothing, why did he go there in the first place? Mahmoud Of Ghazni(His ethnicity was Turkic and his language was Farsi) also invaded india and broke a few idoles, what was the benefit of it? but mahmoud did a few other good things such as bringing a good and stable gov in Khorasan(today afghanistan) plus his excellent achievment in terms of culture and promotion of Farsi languge to the next level is absolutely unforgabtable. then the last one who invaded india was Nadir Afshar from Persia, he again invaded and came back. so i dont understand what was the benefit of all those invasions?

You are right! But there are many Pakistanis who don't glorify "invaders" and consider them heroes... This article published in Dawn Magazine is an example of this. Read the paragraphs I boldfaced...

A Mughal named Humayun -DAWN Magazine; April 30, 2006

A Mughal named Humayun

HUMAYUN, the eldest son of Babur, was born in March 1508, at Kabul. From an early age, he was associated with his father and was appointed as the governor of Badakshan at the age of 20. He also participated in the battle of Panipat and Kanwah.

He was given the jagir of Sambal and afterwards, in 1527, he was sent to Badakshan. Thenceforth he came back to Agra in 1529 and was ordered to manage his jagir of Sambal. But in Sambal he fell seriously ill and was brought to Agra. There is an anecdote regarding his recovery and the death of his father. It is said that the illness of Humayun was very serious and every physician told Babur that there was no hope for the recovery of Humayun. But Babur did not lose heart and went to the bedside of Humayun. Babur walked three times round the bed of Humayun and prayed to God for the health of his son and that the illness be transferred to him instead. It is said that thereafter Babar fell ill and eventually died, while Humayun recovered.

After the death of Babur, an attempt was made to place Mahdi Khawaja on the throne, who was the brother-in-law of Babur. But Humayun successfully got the throne on the December 1530. It was not a simple task to run the empire which Humayun had inherited. Babur had passed on an ill-organized empire, which had no treasures and unity. Even though he was kind to his brothers and gave Sambal to Askari, Alwar to Hindal and Kamran was given Kabul and Qandar. That division of country was a mistake, which made Kamran to take the army and control the whole of Punjab. As Humayun did not want to fight with his brother, he gave the Punjab, along with district of Hissar Firoz, to Kamran. Humayun was only left with the regions newly incorporated in the Mughal empire, and the empire which was ruled by his father for a long time was given to the brother.

Humayun lacked tact and will power, and this was the reason that he could not overcome his initial difficulties. In 1531, Humayun besieged the fort of Kalinjar but he failed to get it even after a long siege. The Kalinjar expedition is said to be one of the mistakes of Humayun. He gave up the siege because he had to face the Afghans, who were marching to the province of Jaunpur. The Afghans advanced up to Brabanki and Humayun defeated them in Dourah in August 1532. Afterwards, Humayun went on to conquer Chunar, which was under Sher Khan. The siege lasted for three months and eventually Humayun gave in. It was a mistake because Sher Khan was a rising star and he should have been crushed then.

Humayun, after defeating Bahadur Shah and capturing the fort of Mandu and Champanir, wasted a lot of time in merrymaking. He spent the treasure, which he had got as booty from Champanir, and did not try to consolidate his position.

In 1540, Sher Khan captured Humayun’s territory and left him with almost no land. And during these homeless years, Akbar was born to him in Umarkot. After the death of Sher Khan (who was popularly known as Sher Shah) in 1545, Humayun struggled to get back his lost territory. He occupied Peshawar in 1554, whereas Lahore was occupied in February 1555. Dipalpur was also taken and after fighting many battles, Humayun reached Delhi in July 1555.

Over all, it is said that Humayun was a gentleman, kindhearted and sensitive. As a son, husband, father and brother, he was an ideal one. He was a thoroughly cultured man.

When talking about the Mughal reign, there is a need to look into the socio-economic conditions of the region and the people they invaded. The Mughals were not the natives of the subcontinent. They had come from Afghanistan and got this land by sheer power, and they ended up being considered as heroes. On the other hand, the natives of the land were treated as the villains.

History is interpreted in strange ways. The invader is remembered in glorified terms while those who defend their land, trying to protect what has been theirs for centuries, are considered as rebels. So was the case with the Mughals, the natives who lived there for thousands of years were described unfavourably, while the invaders, who by dint of power got the land, were termed as peace-loving. People of this land had always been economically sound but these wars brought rainy days for them. The reason was that the losses that occurred in war were recovered from the poor natives in the form of tax.

Foreign rule also brought much social disturbance. A local king was always merciful to his fellow men, but an outsider treated them in an inhuman way. Though Islam advocates equality, it was not properly established by these Muslim rulers.

When Humayun lost his territory to Sher Shah, he turned towards Sindh and during his stay there he forcefully married a young woman who attracted him. That young woman gave birth to Akbar. It’s always accepted that a king made a historian write about the events of his times in his presence and it may be possible that Humayun tried to show himself as kindhearted and a gentleman. Prior to the period of Humayun, Sikism started to flourish but the founder of Sikism died in the reign of Humayun in 1539. Angad the second Guru died when Humayun lost his territory. And the third Guru, Amar Das was alive when Humayun’s period ended.

Humayun is known as ‘the fortunate one’ because he managed to get back his territory from Sher Shah. He was fortunate to get a son like Akbar, who expanded and consolidated the empire to become the greatest of the Mughals.

During Humayun’s reign when the people of the subcontinent were engaged in wars, Europe was making rapid progress in science. But one of the most disheartening things is that these rulers thought that they were more powerful than the rest of the world. And this pride was the cause of their backwardness and fall.