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India joins Ballistic Missile Defence Club

Hypersonic reusable missile next: Pillai

Special Correspondent

It will attack the target and return to base, he says:woot:

damn, if it didn't drop the warhead somehow, the base would be in real trouble. Seems there will be deserted base to capture the reusable missile.
 
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Missile shield



FOCUS -- DRDO

Missile shield

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

Missile development in India is a saga of self-reliance and sustained struggle.

SOMETIME in February, a modified version of Dhanush, India’s surface-to-surface missile, will take off from a naval ship in the Bay of Bengal. As the powerful missile, simulating the terminal conditions of a ballistic missile of a range of 1,500 kilometres, heads towards the Wheeler Island, off the Orissa coast, an interceptor missile will take off from the island and waylay the incoming “enemy” missile at an altitude of 80 km and pulverise it. The interception will take place in the last few seconds of the flight of the “enemy” missile.

If the interception is a success, it will be a hat-trick for the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in its quest to establish a credible missile shield against incoming ballistic missiles from adversarial countries. The advantage in this mission, in which the interception takes place at an altitude of 80 km, is that the debris of the “enemy” missile will take longer to fall through the atmosphere and will become cinders. DRDO scored a spectacular success on December 6, 2007, when its interceptor missile Advanced Air Defence (AAD-02) smashed into an incoming Prithvi missile in a “hit to kill” mode. It propelled India into an elite group of three countries – the United States, Russia and Israel – that have the ability to intercept ballistic missiles. On November 27, 2006, India’s first interceptor missile, Prithvi Air Defence, “ambushed” an incoming Prithvi-II missile at an altitude of 50 km.

Today, India has an inventory of powerful missiles, which include Agni, Agni II, Agni III, and Prithvi with its naval and air force versions, Akash, Nag, Astra, BrahMos, underwater-launched K-15 (Sagarika) and land version Shourya. Missile development in India is a saga of self-reliance and sustained struggle, with the pioneers learning by reverse engineering and battling technology-denial regimes such as the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).

V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, Missiles and Strategic Systems, DRDO, said: “Today, we are confident that any time the West switches off the complete flow of technology or components, we will be in a position to build these missiles.”

The emphasis in DRDO’s missile programme, in future, will be on systems that are reliable, robust and cost-effective. Each missile can attack multiple targets. The missiles will have precision-guided ammunition to pick out areas of interest such as military facilities and radar installations. “This means you need a very accurate weapon system. Precision is going to be the buzzword,” Saraswat said. The technologies that will help in achieving such miniaturised but highly accurate systems are micro-electro mechanical systems (MEMS), nano-sensors, nano-materials, advanced computers with sophisticated software, and so on.

Saraswat, who is Programme Director, Air Defence, said: “So DRDO has embarked on a major programme of development of MEMS, nano-materials and nano-sensors to enable it to enter this particular area. In terms of speed, since the time available to reach the target will be short, the future work will be in the area of hypersonic missiles. We are already working on scram-jet technology. Our project on Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV), where we want to demonstrate the performance of a scram-jet engine at an altitude of 15 km to 20 km, is already on.”

DRDO’s missile programme dates back to 1959-60 when Dr. D.S. Kothari was Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister. A group of young scientists including S.L. Bansal, K.C. Chaturvedi and B.N. Singh, motivated by the international scenario at that time and the 1962 Chinese aggression, set about thinking of missile technology development in India. Work began at the Metcalfe House in New Delhi at a conceptual level. Soon the missile establishment shifted to Hyderabad, where the State government gave it the army barracks of the erstwhile Nizam. This was the genesis of the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad. DRDO started with building anti-tank missiles.

Its first anti-tank missile was a totally indigenous product – propulsion, control, guidance, power supply and the materials. There were no computers, and electronic circuits were used to make calculations. The missile was test-fired near Imarat, a village on the outskirts of Hyderabad. Its reliability proved to be good.

The project laid the foundation of India’s missile programme and it helped to train many technologists including A.V. Ranga Rao, S. Krishnan, K. Rama Rao, Z.P. Marshal, H.S. Rama Rao and J.C. Bhattacharya, who later contributed to the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP).

Many from this group of more than 50 people, who were involved in the development of India’s anti-tank missile, went on to set up the Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), Hyderabad, which became the production agency of missiles. And, in the late 1960s, the Government of India decided on licensed production of SS-11B anti-tank missile of France at the BDL.

However, on the international scene, work on missile development had started before the First World War. During the Second World War, Germany could boast the brilliant missile technologist Werner von Braun. By the end of the Second World War, Germany had built the formidable V-2 rocket, signalling that Germany had arrived. After the defeat of Germany, the U.S. and the Soviet Union captured Germany’s top missile technologists and used their expertise to build their missile programmes. A missile race began between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, leading to a proliferation of Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles (IRBMs) and Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs).

Reverse engineering

All this motivated DRDO to somehow bridge the gap and it initiated a major project for developing a surface-to-air missile (SAM). It did this by reverse engineering the Russian SAM-2, which Russia had supplied to India. India busied itself with this project from 1970 to 1979.

If DRDL has today grown to be a massive complex with a huge infrastructure, the credit should go to Air Vice Marshal V.S. Narayanan. He was the one who perceived the need to build a critical mass of infrastructure. He set up solid and liquid propellant test facilities, the base for precision-manufacturing of gyroscopes, accelerometers, actuators for missiles’ control and guidance, and foundry for manufacturing light materials such as magnesium. “I am happy to say that I joined DRDO as a young scientist at that time,” said Saraswat.

Saraswat gave another instance of the sweep and amplitude of Air Vice Marshal Narayanan’s vision. Narayanan realised that academic institutions should have tailor-made courses for young men interested in missile technology. An M.Tech course in missile technology was started at the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, with the help of its Aeronautics Department, in the early 1970s. Many DRDO scientists who pursued that course went on to become project directors and programme directors in its laboratories.

Between 1970 and 1979, the basic technologies needed for a missile programme were in place. Yet, India was not in a position to deliver the systems. So the indigenisation of the Russian SAM-2 began. In parallel, a programme called Valiant began under the leadership of Squadron Leader R. Gopalswamy to build a rocket engine powered by liquid propellants. Saraswat was part of the team that built the engine between 1971 and 1974. Dr. B.D. Nag Chaudhri, then Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, motivated the young missile technologists not only to indigenise SAM-2 but build technologies needed for the future, such as liquid engines. The engine was tested on June 10, 1974. The previous month, India had conducted a peaceful nuclear experiment at Pokhran.

DRDO simultaneously turned its attention to building a guidance package because the inertial navigation system formed an essential part of a long-range missile. A team headed by D. Burman and comprising P. Banerjee and Avinash Chander (who now heads the Advanced Systems Laboratory in Hyderabad that designs and builds the Agni series of missiles) built a platform-based inertial navigation system (INS), which was tested on board an Avro aircraft in 1974-75. This INS, based on transistor-based analog computers, weighed 50 kg. (Today, the INS weighs 9 kg.) Subsequently, said Avinash Chander, an INS was built for both missiles and an aircraft, and this was tested in 1979 on board a Canberra aircraft.

By now, DRDL had built enough infrastructure in the fields of propulsion, navigation and manufacture of materials. But it did not have its own range (launch pads), so it used the Indian Space Research Organisation’s Sriharikota base or the Indian Air Force’s Suryalanka air base for flight-testing its own SAM-2.

Soon, India’s political and scientific leadership, which included Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, Defence Minister R. Venkataraman, and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister V.S. Arunachalam, decided that all these technologies should be consolidated. This led to the birth of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, who was project director of ISRO’s successful SLV-3 flight in 1980, was inducted as the DRDL Director to shape these diverse technologies into a good product. It was then decided that DRDL would pursue multiple projects simultaneously and not merely one project at a time.

Thus, four projects were born under the IGMDP: the tactical surface-to-surface missile Prithvi, the tactical surface-to-air Akash, the short-range surface-to-air Trishul, and the anti-tank missile Nag.

According to Kalam, Prithvi could not be converted into a long-range missile and so the DRDO should come up with re-entry technology. “On Kalam’s insistence, a development project on re-entry technology was included in the programme [IGMDP], and he called it Agni,”
said Saraswat. Thus, the 1980s saw the realisation of technologies in the areas of Nag, the inertial navigation system of Prithvi, phased array radars, capability to handle multiple targets, the re-entry technology of Agni, the ram-rocket motor of Akash, and so on.

Technology

The first Prithvi test-firing took place in 1988 and the Agni Technology Demonstrator’s flight-test took place the following year. After the launch of Agni in 1989, the U.S. declined to give India the phase shifters for the phased array radars for Akash. Germany refused to give India the magnesium alloy used in Prithvi’s wings. Servo-valves needed for the electro-hydraulic control systems of Agni and Prithvi were embargoed. France, which used to give gyroscopes and accelerators to India, said its exports were taboo. Intel said it would not give India chips for the computers used in Prithvi and Agni. “This is a very short list. The list runs into hundreds of components and materials,” said a top DRDO scientist. After 1989, DRDO evolved strategies to counter the MTCR.

The missile men duly began programmes for the development of phase shifters, magnesium alloy, servo-valves, and so on. Kalam and his team formed a consortium of DRDO laboratories such as the Solid State Physics Laboratory and the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), the Defence Research and Development Establishment, industries and academic institutions to build these sub-systems, components and materials. It was an exacting path, but it yielded positive results. The public sector undertaking Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MIDHANI), DMRL and private industries developed the magnesium alloy in two years. When the first plate of magnesium alloy rolled out of MIDHANI, Germany proferred India any amount of magnesium alloy. DRDO wrote back saying it was prepared to export the alloy to Germany.

The phase shifters, a critical element for radars for Akash, was jointly developed by the Indian Institute of Technology, New Delhi, the Birla Institute of Technology and Science, Pilani and the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) laboratories The resins and carbon fibres used in the re-entry systems of Agni, which were denied to DRDO, were developed in India. The winding machines, also denied, were fabricated.

Saraswat said: “While this was a painful process, it laid a strong foundation for research and it stood the country in good stead because today there is a flair for doing this kind of work in industry, academic institutions and laboratories.”
 
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^^^^^

DRDO have these type of many small but critical success but they are over-shadowed by delay of LCA,Arjun and Kaveri.
 
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U.S.–India Strategic Partnership on Laser-Based Missile Defense

U.S.–India Strategic Partnership on Laser-Based Missile Defense
by Lisa Curtis and James Jay Carafano, Ph.D.



Last week, the Press Trust of India reported that defense officials intend to produce a laser capable of shooting down enemy ballistic missiles. The United States is a global leader in directed-energy defenses, including both low and high-powered lasers. American military research is also highly advanced in the technologies of acquiring targets as well as the command, control, and battle management systems necessary to identify and direct weapons to destroy missiles and other targets. In recent years, the United States and India have increased bilateral cooperation in a range of defense, counterterrorism, and homeland security areas. This cooperation is helping increase trust and confidence between the two nations while fostering security, stability, and prosperity in Asia. Working together on directed-energy developments offers a significant opportunity to strengthen the U.S.-India strategic partnership.

India Goes to Light Speed

The United States and India share many security concerns, such as the threat of ballistic missiles. V. K. Saraswat of the Defense Research and Development Organization rightly told the Press Times of India: "If you have a laser-based system on an airborne or seaborne platform, it can travel at the speed of light and in a few seconds, [and] we can kill a ballistic missile coming towards [India]." India's interest in developing directed energy defenses is understandable, as lasers have several distinct advantages. Such weapons:

* Can use a high-powered beam of energy to disable electrical components or detonate explosives, rendering the attack means such as the warhead or body of a missile useless;
* Come with an almost infinite magazine--as long as the weapons have power, they can be recharged and fired again;
* Can be aimed effectively using existing target acquisition systems (such as radars) and command and control systems (such as a computer battle management network); and
* Can be employed with a minimum of risk toward surrounding civilians, buildings, or vehicles (such as aircraft, cars, and ships).

In addition, lasers are versatile. While high-powered lasers address ballistic missile threats, low-powered lasers have a number of potential security uses, from disabling small boats to downing shoulder-fired missiles to intercepting rockets and mortars. All these uses have application to Indian security concerns.

It is also worth noting that missile defenses, such as high-powered lasers, limit the potential for regional conflict. Missile defenses serve as important deterrents, undermining the effectiveness of enemy threats. They also provide an alternative to massive retaliation in the face of an actual attack. The security provided by missile defenses actually limits the likelihood of armed escalation or an arms race and makes diplomacy more effective. It is no coincidence that the greatest strides in reducing the nuclear arsenals came in the late 1980s, at the same time the U.S. was pursuing the Strategic Defense Initiative. A world with effective missile defenses is safer and more stable.

American Arsenal

The United States has significant research and development capabilities regarding the application of lasers for national security uses. The Tactical High-Energy Laser (THEL) is one such experimental system tested by the U.S. Army. Development of the THEL began in 1996 as a joint program between the United States and Israel to develop a laser system capable of shooting down Katyusha rockets, artillery, and mortar shells. The THEL system uses radar to detect and track incoming targets. This information is then transferred to an optical tracking system, which refines the target tracking and positions the beam director. The deuterium fluoride chemical laser then fires, hitting the rocket or shell and causing it to explode far short of its intended target. More recently, the Army has experimented with low-power commercial solid-state lasers.

Another system under development in the United States is the Airborne Laser (ABL). The ABL is a system that uses a megawatt chemical laser mounted on a modified Boeing 747 to shoot down theater ballistic missiles. The megawatt-class laser was first successfully tested at full power in early 2006. The system is still under development.

A Shared Security Interest

The American record of military laser research and its many cooperative ventures with friendly and allied powers suggests that a joint U.S.-Indian directed energy program is certainly achievable. The shared interests of both nations in promoting security and stability in Asia also indicates they have a common cause in developing military technologies that would lessen the potential for conflict while effectively countering terrorism. The U.S. should explore opportunities for joint development of cutting edge directed energy technologies--lasers--with India as part of overall missile defense dialogue and deepening of military-to-military ties.

Lisa Curtis is Senior Research Fellow in the Asian Studies Center, and James Jay Carafano, Ph.D., is Assistant Director of the Kathryn and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute for International Studies and Senior Research Fellow in the Douglas and Sarah Allison Center for Foreign Policy Studies at The Heritage Foundation.
 
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Failed test and rocketing costs: Army says no to Brahmos missile

Failed test and rocketing costs: Army says no to Brahmos missile

New Delhi: The recent failure of the 290-km-range Brahmos missile to hit a pre-defined target and the high over-run in its production cost has put a question mark over fresh orders for 240 of these missiles from the Indian Army.

Though an RFP (Request For Proposal) for equipping two regiments with this missile was placed with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) mid-January, it’s learnt that Army chief General Deepak Kapoor has indicated he would not opt for its purchase unless the missile proved its capability and was available at a reasonable price.

“We do not plan to move the proposal to the Cabinet Committee on Security. Let DRDO explain the shortcomings,” Army officials told The Sunday Express, adding that both the Army and the Defence Ministry were opposed to the cost over-run and what DRDO claims to be an “advanced” seeker.

The Army, sources said, is bound by directions of the Defence Acquisition Council which, at the time of placing the first purchase order for 66 missiles in 2006, had said that subsequent regiments would have to be armed with SCAN or “multi-spectral seeker” — a system that provides a video feed to the missile control centre to ensure precision in guidance.

This would help latch the missile on to a specific target hidden in clusters of buildings unlike the present radar technology where the target has to be in isolation or else the missile can deviate to an adjacent body that provides higher radar reflection.

“That is why the present seeker has proved to be adequate for the Indian Navy as two objects are far removed from each other at sea,” sources said. Brahmos is primarily an anti-ship missile that can be launched either in a vertical or inclined position with the capability of covering targets over a 360-degree horizon.

A demonstration to the Army of Brahmos hitting a specific target failed on January 20. The DRDO first claimed success but had to backtrack when General Kapoor insisted on visiting the target site and found that the missile had overshot by a kilometre.

“The missile performance was absolutely normal till the last phase but the missile missed the target though it maintained direction,” Brahmos Aerospace Corporation Director Sivathanu Pillai admitted later. The next test is scheduled for February 10.

Incidentally, a test fire using a vertical launch instead of the usual inclined position from battleship INS Ranvir on January 15 also missed its target, DRDO sources said.
 
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The same old news getting reported here and there with twists to show DRDO in a bad light.

First of all DRDO has said that they identified the problem and second test will be on February. It takes time to figure out that weather the test is completely successful or some where missed.


Army has not said NO to BrahMos they just said that improve it for army requirements.

Navy test was done on 8th December 2008 this guy is harping about 15 jan.

Well take the news with a pinch of salt.
 
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Rest of it .....


Beyond the technology glitch, the DRDO would also have to explain the costs. The Indo-Russian joint venture is now quoting Rs 8,500 crore (October 2008 prices) for arming two regiments compared to Rs 3,000 crore in 2006.
The DRDO says that the cost escalation is due to the new price of Rs 27 crore being asked by the Russians for each missile compared to Rs 13 crore earlier.

The Indo-Russian joint venture was formed between DRDO and the Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia of Russia with the intent to indigenize here. But so far, 80 percent — mainly the liquid ramjet engine and the seeker — are imported in knock-down condition to be reassembled by the Russians.
 
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BrahMos failed as US shut its eyes in the sky?

BrahMos failed as US shut its eyes in the sky?

KOCHI: DRDO scientists have launched an investigation into the failure of the BrahMos army version missile, especially why its GPS system couldn’t link onboard computers with hovering satellites eventually crippling its guidance system and keeping it from achieving mission objectives.
The ambit of the probe will also examine why US satellites blinked during the test window, thereby denying the missile the crucial inputs needed for its guidance.
A primary analysis of the January 20 test has shown that the missile, a special version capable of hitting hidden targets like terrorist camps, performed the flight plan but missed the target. The missile was supposed to hit a rather insignificant target hidden among obstructions at the Pokharan range.
“It had an advance seeker which was to home in on the target using GPS data obtained through US satellites.
But it is a mystery why the SCAN technology failed to access the satellites,” said BrahMos sources.
The seeker, an advanced one developed to guide the missile to very insignificant targets, was a success during test flights. The seeker and the new software were tested extensively using fighter aircraft flying at top speeds.
“Once we were confident of their success, we decided to go in for the first test on the missile. But the failure is a mystery,” top sources told to The New Indian Express.The BrahMos special version, in spite of being an Indo-Russian venture, was fully dependent on US satellites. The Russian global positioning network is not usually used by Indian defence agencies for their strategic programmes. “This leads to speculation about why the entire galaxy of US satellites failed to provide signals to the missile. We need to solve the mystery of how the satellites suddenly failed over the Pokharan skies,” sources said.
The probe report is expected by Wednesday and will be submitted to the Defence Minister. Though the failure rattled the Army a bit, sources said its top brass was still for BrahMos missiles. “We will wait for the result of the February 20 tests.
The missile is still the best to hit a defined and designated target like an enemy depot or an airport. The wait-and-watch is only regarding the advanced version of BrahMos,” sources told to The New Indian Express
 
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Second phase of BrahMos missile programme to be launched Feb 10- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Second phase of BrahMos missile programme to be launched Feb 10
31 Jan 2009, 1652 hrs IST, IANS

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Defence Minister A K Antony will launch the second phase of cruise missile maker Brahmos Aerospace's development programme here Feb 10, Kerala Industries Minister Elamaram Kareem said on Saturday.

He told reporters that the development programme included investment worth Rs 1.25 billion by BrahMos at their existing unit here.

"They (BrahMos) have requested eight acres of land adjacent to their existing unit, which is now occupied by the Southern Air Command. They have also asked us to provide another 50 acres of land for their next phase and we have already identified two places, both in the capital district itself," the minister said.

In the first phase, BrahMos had announced a total investment of Rs 1.25 billion at the existing campus of state public sector unit Keltec, which it had taken over December 2007.

Of this, Rs 750 million was invested by the BrahMos organisation while the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) were to contribute Rs 250 million each.

Named after the Brahmaputra and Moskova rivers, the missile is capable of being launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or from land. It is about three times faster than the US subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile and has the capability to attack surface targets as low as 10m in altitude and has a maximum range of 290 km.

The missile programme is a joint venture between India's DRDO and Russia's NPO Mashinostroeyenia who have together formed the BrahMos Corp. Currently, the assembly of the state-of-the-art missile takes place at the BrahMos unit in Hyderabad.
 
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Most development by D.R.D.O end up in same - dustbin or too expensive,All because of incompetent babu who always have excuse. for not working, I wish one say either we be professional or at least privatize such organizations.
Kaveri will be successful in 6 month without glitch if we had it in private firm.Damn these shameless arse - ole who don't fulfill their duty. and waste money of us tax payers.
 
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wow you came to a very fantastic conclusion. Care to back up with facts whatever you have just smoked.
 
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pfffft.....

arjun

Kaveri

LCA

missile developmet . most of which are hanging in flux.
 
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go to any government organization - i been to DRDO and seen how people work- there is no way it cant be as good as any of international organization. you got brain but no hungr for sucess - just dry hot gas.
 
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Failed Tests and Rocketing Cost: Army says no to Brahomos Missile

By Amitav Ranjan
New Delhi : The recent failure of the 290-km-range Brahmos missile to hit a pre-defined target and the high over-run in its production cost has put a question mark over fresh orders for 240 of these missiles from the Indian Army.
Though an RFP (Request For Proposal) for equipping two regiments with this missile was placed with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) mid-January, it's learnt that Army chief General Deepak Kapoor has indicated he would not opt for its purchase unless the missile proved its capability and was available at a reasonable price.

"We do not plan to move the proposal to the Cabinet Committee on Security. Let DRDO explain the shortcomings," Army officials told The Sunday Express, adding that both the Army and the Defence Ministry were opposed to the cost over-run and what DRDO claims to be an "advanced" seeker.
The Army, sources said, is bound by directions of the Defence Acquisition Council which, at the time of placing the first purchase order for 66 missiles in 2006, had said that subsequent regiments would have to be armed with SCAN or "multi-spectral seeker" — a system that provides a video feed to the missile control centre to ensure precision in guidance.
This would help latch the missile on to a specific target hidden in clusters of buildings unlike the present radar technology where the target has to be in isolation or else the missile can deviate to an adjacent body that provides higher radar reflection.
"That is why the present seeker has proved to be adequate for the Indian Navy as two objects are far removed from each other at sea," sources said. Brahmos is primarily an anti-ship missile that can be launched either in a vertical or inclined position with the capability of covering targets over a 360-degree horizon.
A demonstration to the Army of Brahmos hitting a specific target failed on January 20. The DRDO first claimed success but had to backtrack when General Kapoor insisted on visiting the target site and found that the missile had overshot by a kilometre.
"The missile performance was absolutely normal till the last phase but the missile missed the target though it maintained direction," Brahmos Aerospace Corporation Director Sivathanu Pillai admitted later. The next test is scheduled for February 10.
Incidentally, a test fire using a vertical launch instead of the usual inclined position from battleship INS Ranvir on January 15 also missed its target, DRDO sources said. Beyond the technology glitch, the DRDO would also have to explain the costs. The Indo-Russian joint venture is now quoting Rs 8,500 crore (October 2008 prices) for arming two regiments compared to Rs 3,000 crore in 2006.
The DRDO says that the cost escalation is due to the new price of Rs 27 crore being asked by the Russians for each missile compared to Rs 13 crore earlier. The Indo-Russian joint venture was formed between DRDO and the Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia of Russia with the intent to indigenize here. But so far, 80 percent — mainly the liquid ramjet engine and the seeker — are imported in knock-down condition to be reassembled by the Russians.
 
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go to any government organization - i been to DRDO and seen how people work- there is no way it cant be as good as any of international organization. you got brain but no hungr for sucess - just dry hot gas.

oh great so you worked there? Don't do BS give me some FACTS.
 
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