India is guzzling cheap Russian oil, but Pakistan cannot afford it

[nahtanbob]

Russia is a PROVEN reliable partner.

US and Europe are PROVEN unreliable "partners".

Maybe in weapon supplies

But your economic sector will take a licking if USA/Europe restrict your exports

 

[StraightEdge]

Well Pakistan is doing everything possible to ruin their chances. When they sold weapons to Ukraine, I am not sure what they were thinking. Clearly their politicians have no clue or diplomatic nuance.

 

[AA_]

Jaishankar is NOT a diplomat. He is the Foreign minister of India. The equivalent of US Secretary of State.

His job is to make sure our "partners" hear us loud and clear.

And he does exactly that.

I don't think a career diplomat like Jaishankar needs to learn diplomatic "niceties" from you. That you would even just such an absurd thing shows the Hubris.

I work with many foreign diplomats and observe their demeanor closely. Get rid of this arrogance mindset that many in SA display. Learn how to accept criticism without becoming defensive and taking it personal, which is a big problem amongst the Indian diasporas. Many others, including non Pakistanis have observed the same, you guys have a chip on your shoulders, always trying to prove something.
That’s enough interaction with you for today. Ciao!

 

[Kaniska]

India is guzzling cheap Russian oil, but Pakistan cannot afford it​

Teetering on edge of default, Islamabad needs IMF aid and exports to U.S.

Salman Rafi Sheikh
March 15, 2023 17:00 JST

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Pakistani counterpart Bilawal Bhutto Zardari in Moscow on Jan. 30: Moscow is believed to harbor suspicions about Islamabad's position. © Reuters
Salman Rafi Sheikh is assistant professor of politics at the Mushtaq Ahmad Gurmani School of Humanities and Social Sciences of Lahore University of Management Sciences.
Since the start of the Ukraine war a year ago, India has emerged as a top buyer of Russian oil, with Moscow now its largest supplier of the fuel.
Neighboring Pakistan, with its foreign exchange reserves running low, would benefit financially even more from switching to discounted Russian crude from Gulf oil, but has yet to import any.
How to explain this?
The answer lies in the divergent positions of India and Pakistan in relation to both Russia and the U.S. In short, New Delhi is in a far stronger position in relation to both powers than Islamabad.
India benefits in part from its long-standing friendly relations with Moscow. New Delhi's leadership role in the Non-Aligned Movement during the Cold War allowed it to develop ties with both Moscow and Washington without officially joining either camp.
Drawing from this history, New Delhi has maintained an independent stance on the Russia-Ukraine conflict, refusing to condemn Moscow at the U.N. or elsewhere, while advocating a diplomatic solution.
Pakistan, by contrast, was a front-line ally of Washington during the Cold War. Whenever Islamabad extended a hand of friendship to Moscow then, it was usually to send a message to Washington to extract favors.
Despite cabinet-level talks in both Russia and Pakistan in recent months about oil purchases, Moscow, while eager to find new buyers, seems wary of the possibility that Islamabad is again merely going through the motions for the sake of leverage.
Pakistani media, however, have reported in recent days that Russia has agreed to send a single cargo of oil to the country next month to test "the seriousness of Pakistan."
Islamabad, like New Delhi, has generally abstained on votes against Russia at the U.N., and it officially refuses to take sides. Then-Prime Minister Imran Khan famously was in Moscow when Russia's invasion began last year and proceeded with planned meetings with President Vladimir Putin as his tanks rolled into Ukraine.
But Moscow is believed to harbor suspicions about Islamabad's position.
Last April, Qamar Javed Bajwa, then head of the Pakistan Army, condemned the Russian invasion as a "huge tragedy" being inflicted upon a smaller country in an address to a security conference in Islamabad. He noted that the U.S. is Pakistan's largest export market and the source of its best military equipment.
Bajwa has since retired, but the Pakistani military continues to work to improve defense ties with the U.S. A military delegation led by Chief of General Staff Lt. Gen. Mohammed Saeed traveled to Washington for three days of talks last month.
Restricting Pakistan's options further is the fact that its economic and geopolitical footprint is much smaller than that of India, now the world's fifth-largest economy and set to be the largest nation by population this year.
Pakistan, by contrast, is critically dependent upon the International Monetary Fund for financial support as it struggles to avoid defaulting on its debts.
With support from the Western-led IMF, seen as the country's only option, policymakers in Islamabad tell me they see virtually no room to exercise the strategic autonomy to develop ties with Russia. Already, the IMF has complicated Pakistan's ties with Beijing by demanding details about Chinese loans and infrastructure projects in the country; the fund would be expected to be more demanding about any dealings with Russia.

People wait to buy wheat flour at subsidized rates in Peshawar on Feb. 14: Support from the Western-led IMF is seen as Pakistan's only option. © AP
While media in India have reported that Pakistan is sending arms to Ukraine, and Russia's ambassador to New Delhi has said this traffic is being monitored, Islamabad has officially denied any such exports.
If such shipments are indeed taking place, and some diplomats tell me that they are, it is undoubtedly a move to curry favor with the U.S., still seen as Pakistan's most important source of economic and military help. Again, this relates in part to Pakistan's lack of historical economic and military ties with Moscow.
India has not been forced to make trade-offs between Russia and the U.S., by contrast. It is a core member of the U.S.-led Quad security grouping, and its troubled relations with Beijing make it indispensable to the global coalition Washington is assembling against China.
Indeed, while Ukraine has called for Western sanctions against India over its heavy buying of Russian oil, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Karen Donfried told reporters last month: "We are not looking to sanction India. Our partnership with India is one of our most consequential relationships."
Pakistan could cling to a position as an official major non-NATO ally of the U.S. while Washington was at war in Afghanistan. But with its relevance to the U.S. on the decline, it simply cannot afford the risk of buying Russian oil in bulk. U.S. tariffs on its exports would be devastating and Islamabad badly needs the IMF on its side to avoid following Sri Lanka into default. Pakistan simply does not have the luxury to set its own priorities.

India is guzzling cheap Russian oil, but Pakistan cannot afford it

Teetering on edge of default, Islamabad needs IMF aid and exports to U.S.

asia.nikkei.com

TBH, I really do not understand why there is so much fascination in Pakistan media about Russia. China is now the sole superpower after the US...If China is really backing Pakistan as a close ally, what can Russia provide Pakistan that can not be fulfilled by China or Arab allies of Pakistan...I believe Pakistan is simply playing to the domestic audience to prove itself how anti-West it can be...But in reality, by associating with Russia, Pakistan will not get any extra financial benefit that can be fulfilled by its Aran allies.

 

[Tafob]

Maybe in weapon supplies

But your economic sector will take a licking if USA/Europe restrict your exports

Nope in VALUES.

For the west any "partnership" is restricted to "benefit". The moment the benefit ends, the relationship ends. This even extends to your personal relationships (wives, gf etc).

Russian partnership is more stable, and does not break when the immediate benefit ends.

Maybe you don't remember the time US and Europe put sanctions on India (Multiple times). We do.

It was Hitler which finally destroyed the British empire though he does not get enough credit for that. British empire vs Nazi, Who was more evil ?

It is China that will finally destroy US dominancy and bullying. So its really about choosing the lesser of two evils.

 

[Kaniska]

Why should I be concerned about Pakistan?

If you think all is well in India, you are clearly deluded.

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Union Labour Minister Bhupender Yadav said 66,912 housewives, 53,661 self-employed persons, 43,420 salaried persons and 43,385 unemployed persons also committed suicide during the period.

www.hindustantimes.com

India: Why are suicides among farmers on the increase? – DW – 09/04/2022

Financial burdens caused by climate change and government polices have led to a rise in the number of suicides among agricultural workers. Maharashtra state has suffered more than most.

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A 35-year-old unemployed man was found hanging in Harda, Madhya Pradesh, after he sent WhatsApp messages to his wife.

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Why should I be concerned about Pakistan?

Are you really serious why should not we be concerned or opinionated about Pakistan? Or you are not able to tolerate or kind of feeling sand with things that are happening around in our neighorhood?

 

[Tafob]

I work with many foreign diplomats and observe their demeanor closely. Get rid of this arrogance mindset that many in SA display. Learn how to accept criticism without becoming defensive and taking it personal, which is a big problem amongst the Indian diasporas. Many others, including non Pakistanis have observed the same, you guys have a chip on your shoulders, always trying to prove something.
That’s enough interaction with you for today. Ciao!

I don't care who you work with, but the moment you think you can teach "diplomatic niceties" to a career diplomat like Jaishankar, you have lost the plot.

You end up sounding like the idiot you are. This is not "personal", this is just calling out your BS.

 

[nahtanbob]

Nope in VALUES.

For the west any "partnership" is restricted to "benefit". The moment the benefit ends, the relationship ends. This even extends to your personal relationships (wives, gf etc).

Russian partnership is more stable, and does not break when the immediate benefit ends.

Maybe you don't remember the time US and Europe put sanctions on India (Multiple times). We do.

It was Hitler which finally destroyed the British empire though he does not get enough credit for that. British empire vs Nazi, Who was more evil ?

It is China that will finally destroy US dominancy and bullying. So its really about choosing the lesser of two evils.

What can I say ? If Hitler or Imperial Army laid their hands on India you do not have to worry about being overpopulated. There is a good reason millions of Indians signed up for the Royal Indian Army.

The way Russia is going there is going to be little value for India. Expect Russia to be get closer to China in the short to intermediate term. Once that happens you can kiss goodbye
to Russian weapons

Without weapons and UN veto Russia has little value to India. The energy and natural resources are great. But India can get them anywhere

 

[PakFactor]

It's what happens when Pakistan can't get off the chiti "white" bund of America and make its own foreign policy decisions.

Chalo, chat lo dosti.

 

[Tafob]

What can I say ? If Hitler or Imperial Army laid their hands on India you do not have to worry about being overpopulated. There is a good reason millions of Indians signed up for the Royal Indian Army.

The way Russia is going there is going to be little value for India. Expect Russia to be get closer to China in the short to intermediate term. Once that happens you can kiss goodbye
to Russian weapons

Without weapons and UN veto Russia has little value to India. The energy and natural resources are great. But India can get them anywhere

You think Indians signed up for the British Indian army to fight Hitler ?

Dude, Weapons and Weapons training was BANNED for Indians in British India. The War that Hitler started opened up an opportunity for Indians to not only learn how to use weapons, but also to own them.

THAT is why the majority of Indians signed up to join the British army.

And guess what they did after joining the british army ? They defected to the Indian National Army and FOUGHT THE BRITISH in Singapore and upto India.

And later After the war they MUTINIED and forced the British to give Independence to India.

You probably know the history the british told you, that "Gandhi" got us freedom. lol.

India does not need Russian weapons anymore. We are almost at part with Russian weapon technology. What we need is for Russia to survive with their 6,000 Nuclear weapons that provides a counter balance to US nuclear blackmail.

Their oil and resources are a bonus. Their real value is their Friendship and share understanding of YOUR "values".

So while you look at the world in terms of "trade", we actually look at the world in terms of "shared Values". We are the real world "winterfell". Now who would the US be ? (in GOT terms)

 

[nahtanbob]

You think Indians signed up for the British Indian army to fight Hitler ?

Dude, Weapons and Weapons training was BANNED for Indians in British India. The War that Hitler started opened up an opportunity for Indians to not only learn how to use weapons, but also to own them.

THAT is why the majority of Indians signed up to join the British army.

And guess what they did after joining the british army ? They defected to the Indian National Army and FOUGHT THE BRITISH in Singapore and upto India.

And later After the war they MUTINIED and forced the British to give Independence to India.

You probably know the history the british told you, that "Gandhi" got us freedom. lol.

India does not need Russian weapons anymore. We are almost at part with Russian weapon technology. What we need is for Russia to survive with their 6,000 Nuclear weapons that provides a counter balance to US nuclear blackmail.

Their oil and resources are a bonus. Their real value is their Friendship and share understanding of YOUR "values".

So while you look at the world in terms of "trade", we actually look at the world in terms of "shared Values".

Indians who signed up fought the Japanese Army. There are a few thousand Victoria Crosses for it,
Sure a few POWs defected to the Japanese side.

The last time I checked the T-90s, Su-30s, S-400s, Mi-17s, Kilo subs have Indian equivalents

What shared values ?? No one in India in their sane mind does business with the Russians. Even your pal Adani does not go there
Maybe some residual shared interests.

 

[Tafob]

Indians who signed up fought the Japanese Army. There are a few thousand Victoria Crosses for it,
Sure a few POWs defected to the Japanese side.

The last time I checked the T-90s, Su-30s, S-400s, Mi-17s, Kilo subs have Indian equivalents

What shared values ?? No one in India in their sane mind does business with the Russians. Even your pal Adani does not go there
Maybe some residual shared interests.

Indians got 18 Victoria cross in WW1 and 30 in WW2.

Indian troops were not originally eligible for the VC.

Indians were only eligible for the Indian Order of Merit.

Indian troops became "eligible' only in 1911,

Almost ALL the captured POW defected to the Indian National Army.

Also, Arjun, TEDBF, AMCA, Tejas, Arihant, Kalveri class sub, AAD missile defense, AD-1 are the Indian equivalent.

Indian business men do not do business on shared values, they work for Profit and its profitable for them to trade with the west. But Indian business men don't run the Indian govt. Or did you think they did ? lol.

 

[Suriya]

It's unfair on Pakistan to compare it with India.

 

[indushek]

Indians who signed up fought the Japanese Army. There are a few thousand Victoria Crosses for it,
Sure a few POWs defected to the Japanese side.

The last time I checked the T-90s, Su-30s, S-400s, Mi-17s, Kilo subs have Indian equivalents

What shared values ?? No one in India in their sane mind does business with the Russians. Even your pal Adani does not go there
Maybe some residual shared interests.

Hi

Indo Russian relation is slightly complicated, given the history we have had with them post independence.

While Russians didn't help us out of some love, they did come to aid every time we got under the axe of 'trouble' whether during war or diplomatically.

India by remaining neutral (diplomatically) is trying to repay some of that, and add buying of oil to that as well. Even at cheaper rate, we are still helping them make money during war time. So you are right when you say, there are some residual shared interests with Russia. They were present in our SSBN program, and possibly other strategic programs too. Another strategic program is space, where our manned space mission was to get their help for astronaut training.

When it comes to business though, you are right that only West holds the path to development for us. Even if the Govt had other ideas, best practices and success lure everyone automatically.

Indo US relations have long been seen through Pakistani prism, as we both weren't de-hyphenated till recently. It will take time to get to level of Indo Russian level, given the fear built into us given past. One factor called China however, might speed things up.

Also I have seen that recently, US is actively pushing either their own institutions like NASA to cooperate with ISRO and for strategic tech issues using other Western nations to cooperate with us. With Russia sunk deep in a mess of their own making, the left our shared interests might soon disappear.

 

[nahtanbob]

Indians got 18 Victoria cross in WW1 and 30 in WW2.

Indian troops were not originally eligible for the VC.

Indians were only eligible for the Indian Order of Merit.

Indian troops became "eligible' only in 1911,

Almost ALL the captured POW defected to the Indian National Army.

Also, Arjun, TEDBF, AMCA, Tejas, Arihant, Kalveri class sub, AAD missile defense, AD-1 are the Indian equivalent.

Indian business men do not do business on shared values, they work for Profit and its profitable for them to trade with the west. But Indian business men don't run the Indian govt. Or did you think they did ? lol.

I see you had no response to what Japanese and Germans could do to the Indian populace.

How many Tejas, AMCA are in IAF fleet compared to MiG-29s and Su-30s ? What engine do the Tejas and AMCA use ?