India is a friend. Pakistan is not. (US president Bush memo)

[Dalit]

You reap what you sow. Pakistani army is a mole of the US. That much is certain.

 

[-=virus=-]

I wonder how many of our COAS have taken foreign military courses in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them have.

Money alone can create a mole but most effective mole is one you can influence their ideology. Best way to create a mole that would be willing to work against Pakistani interests is to simply make them extremely liberal or straight up non-muslim.

Those are professional and "good" courses, devoid of politics.. US are sensei, those guys know the score, much experienced in war-fighting on the other side of the world.

Religiosity, religion, faith etc is also a terrible idea if one were to infect your forces with it.. muslim/kaafir should have nothing to do with it ideally.

 

[nahtanbob]

A Look at secret Bush (Bush's national security team) Memos for President Obama.

The first note reads:

India is a friend. Pakistan is not.




View attachment 916568


Reference: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/14/us/politics/bush-obama-memos.html


So, they (US) knew that and had this policy for decades. It amazes me, that our establishment went far & beyond to appease US. Bajwa, going full throttle against Russia on security conference in 2022 till today, We are seeing West appeasing policy that's only hurting us and nothing else.

No matter, how much Generals appease them, there's no way collective West will favor Pakistan over india. Indian influence over US is overwhelming, Indians dominate US tech & business sectors, indian decent politicians are coming in powerful positions, the security agreements with india makes it a de-factor Asian NATO Country. I am appalled at IQ of General Bajwa, who completely disrupted our relations with Russia & China because of his Pro-west attitude.

I used to doubt the authenticity of General Bajwa's meetings with journalists where he used to degrade the Chinese food, culture and like to shower all praises on Americans. But everything now looks clear.

- Britishers told us what we are supposed to do and we sold cheap ammo. At the same time, india saving billions of dollars on cheap oil & gas. Indian citizens are greatly benefiting from cheap russian oil. Not just that, india is re-exporting Russian oil after refining it to the West and the World and earning multi billion dollar revenue.

- Annoyance of Russia is evident, A security dialog on Afghanistan happened just days ago in Moscow, all NSA's from neighboring countries were invited including India except Pakistan. Leaving space open on regional security agenda is suicidal. Lack of strategic thinking from GHQ has given this space back to the indians.

- China is obviously annoyed on GHQ's shocking policy - China has state policy to not publicly talk about differences, otherwise they would have said quite clearly but actions already speaks:

- New COAS has visited KSA, UAE, Britian etc. but not China (or did he? atleast I missed if he did)

- China shuts down consular office in Pak citing security situation.

- China would be surprised seeing Pak helping Britain & EU supplying weapons to Ukraine (POF artillery ) against China's ally Russia.

- I am also noticing unusual delay in delivery of Chinese weaponary. If milestones like Keel laying, launching dates have to be our guide then 3rd Type 54-A/P was due on first week of January. The first of the 08 submarines were also due in 2022-2023, Similarly, what about next batches of J-10Cs.

- PN AMAN-23 exercise has invited all countries but Russia was not invited.


All we are seeing is GHQ's flawed foreign policy. First of all they should NEVER venture in this area. They are not equipped to make nation's foreign policy. Disastrous results are in front of everyone. Pro-West policy has taken us to the default and we have also lost the confidence & trust of our allies. Even Amateurs could see that West will not give us any extra favor, no matter what you do. Our future had to be aligned with China & Russia, the above article shows that even at times of great co-operation, the west was only using us. They knew all the way that India is their real friend and we can never be trusted.

We don't have to be anti-west as well, but atleast We must have anticipated that west cannot offer us anything else then whatever its offering already. But heck, GHQ even toppled the elected govt on little displeasure of US (over Khan's visit to Moscow - same day Russian offense started)

One country is not willing to sell engines (license for their engines to be re-exported) ( for Turkish helis), Other country is selling you complete fighter jet squadrons and yet you destroy the trust.
The damage done will take decades to repair. China/Russia will never trust us. They will consider that our establishment can do shocking decisions for the west. Who will trust, what if a new COAS at any point in time do yet another pro-US stunts like Bajwa. How China (arch rival of United States) can now feel secure investing further in Pakistan ? If I put myself in China's position, I'd never trust Pak.

Pakistan is doing what it can to prevent full throttled alliance between USA and India. US-Indian alliance against China will have a negative effect on Pakistan's fortunes. The US-Indian alliance against China is not a given. The Pakistani army is doing everything to keep their options open. That means delaying CPEC, relying upon the IMF.

 

[lightning F57]

Bajwa, going full throttle against Russia on security conference in 2022 till today, We are seeing West appeasing policy

This should be no surprise, his compromised due to his business interests in the US, alleged to have 71 companies there.

This is the fundamental issue with Pak leaders they think about a future outside of Pak so when they are in power the country doesn't benefit to the full extent.

 

[TheSolution]

Those are professional and "good" courses, devoid of politics.. US are sensei, those guys know the score, much experienced in war-fighting on the other side of the world.

Religiosity, religion, faith etc is also a terrible idea if one were to infect your forces with it.. muslim/kaafir should have nothing to do with it ideally.

Definitely their courses are of high quality no doubt about it, but there is also political meddling involved.

Remember in Afghanistan, before the Soviets invaded, many of their generals were attending foreign military courses in Russia and being influenced by their ideology.

US won't miss opportunities to create moles especially when larping about nuclear threat constantly. And also Muslim/kaffir/liberal these are all a nation's ideological principles, the most cooperative mole would be one who disagrees with the one belonging to a nation.

 

[nahtanbob]

I have another take on this. India Russia alliance continues to stand the test of time — but when it comes to people to people, institution to institution relations —- they are practically non-existent.

People don’t relate with the Russians and we cannot communicate with them in Russian. Not the same when it comes to US. We may be vary of them when it comes to policy, but we understand them at a more fundamental level than we ever understood Russians. We work with them very closely on almost every domain — from rural development to industrial development. Many touch points.

There is no comparison. India and the US are natural allies. So the differences keep getting smoothed over a lot faster..

two big countries will differ on a lot of all tactical and operational issues but can be on the same wavelength on key strategic issues. that is ideal relationship

 

[datafreak]

Location Location Location

US needs Pakistan to reach Central Asia

India needs Pakistan to reach Iran

Russia needs Pakistan to reach Arabian Sea

China needs Pakistan to reach GCC & Africa.

Pakistan has all the ace cards.

We use the seas bro.

 

[Dalit]

This is what Pakistan has become due to these generals. A lackey state with a failed economy and an illiterate people.

The Americans have all along shared their sentiments with regards to Pakistan. Even China has ditched Pakistan. Pakistan is alone.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

I wonder how many of our COAS have taken foreign military courses in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them have.

Money alone can create a mole but most effective mole is one you can influence their ideology. Best way to create a mole that would be willing to work against Pakistani interests is to simply make them extremely liberal or straight up non-muslim.

They probably get some white girls to influence their ideology, make them more liberal, drink, whatever, create a more effective mole.

CIA has tons of shit to blackmail these gernails with when they go to America. That’s why you don’t hear a squeak from them when US talks. Some of them are just bought off by the CIA. Our political dynasties are on the payroll of both the CIA and MI5/Mi6.

PA is infiltrated with these dogs that have even created groups within the military. Patriotic gernails get run off and others get forced into retirement.

Don’t forget the words of our Spymaster.

Without cleansing our institutions and government, Pakistan will maintain ‘self’-inflicted sabotage that even third world countries would not commit..

 

[-=virus=-]

Definitely their courses are of high quality no doubt about it, but there is also political meddling involved.

Remember in Afghanistan, before the Soviets invaded, many of their generals were attending foreign military courses in Russia and being influenced by their ideology.

US won't miss opportunities to create moles especially when larping about nuclear threat constantly. And also Muslim/kaffir/liberal these are all a nation's ideological principles, the most cooperative mole would be one who disagrees with the one belonging to a nation.

of course the whole thing is political, this, after all, is greatest game of all, innit ?

back in the mid 90s, post soviet dissolution... one of my uncles (chacha), who happened to be a col. at the time, was part of a delegation who were invited by the US.. their delegation was proper wined and dined, given tours of all sorts of otherwise classified facilities (NASA etc) .. as a kid I remember eating astronaut space food biscuits/wafers he'd got back lmao

Pak has had traditionally an even stronger military bond with the US.. India-US relations only thawed post the soviet collapse, and they're somewhat blossoming now

been a rough ride for Pak (WoT/OP Enduring Freedom etc ka blowback) but they're probably best advised to still work with the US

IK guy was too much of an emotionally driven person.. swam against the tide..

paid the price

scene/pitch dekh ke khelo na

IK hero ban ra tha.. clean bowled ho gya

 

[Olympus81]

Foreign policy is grey not black/white.

My point being, you can stand up to the US and maintain good relations with them. You can say absolutely not to them while expanding trade markets. You can make sure they quickly exit Afghanistan while work with them on their overtures in Middle East. You draw the line on CPEC and work with them on other issues where your interests converge.

Same with China.

Point is, you don’t prostrate to the US and sacrifice your relations with other states.

This is exactly what Bajwa’s action conspired towards. Pakistan damaged its relations with China, Russia and others. That translated further into an economic armageddon which we are witnessing today.

 

[epebble]

Pakistan played it completely wrong.

You see, when you don’t stand up for yourself and just capitulate to a powerful country, that’s what happens. Pakistan goes knee deep into it’s relationship with a regional power that it sometimes hurts itself.

Let me give you an example. During the Soviet war, Pakistan refused to engage in broad diplomatic and trade relations with USSR and even treated other countries aligned to the Soviet as a pariah. Same with Arab countries and limited relations with Iran. Identical to its relation with China and refusal to deal with Xinjiang or relations with Taiwan.

Seeing this kind of capitulation attitude the other party would think very lowly of you.

When IK said absolutely not to drone strikes, everyone just went bezerk (especially Establishment). Questions arose like how can Pakistan say no, and its absolutely weak in front of US. When you’re not willing to grow a spine the other party will take you for a ride like a tramp. These eunuch of an establishment we have would want to prostrate in front of a powerful country provided they open $ tap in the form of CSF, a million dollar for a drone strike or CPEC.

As opposed to the Indians who are holding their own. They maintain good relations with everyone no matter what. US, Russia, China, check the trade figures and diplomatic relations. Learn to play the game.

You have put forward an elaborate theory with many suppositions. I think the rupture came quick and full after the Abbottabad raid. Prior to that, at least on C-SPAN, there used to be some pro-Pakistan support in Congress. After 2011, I haven't seen any.

 

[PakFactor]

Pakistan was given Major non-NATO ally (MNNA) status by none other than George W Bush in 2004.

Our relations with the US and NATO are much deeper than they have with India.

Yet you couldn't get a US export license to get the Turkish helicopters. With allies like that, who needs friends and enemies?

Dumbf*ck.

Location Location Location

US needs Pakistan to reach Central Asia

India needs Pakistan to reach Iran

Russia needs Pakistan to reach Arabian Sea

China needs Pakistan to reach GCC & Africa.

Pakistan has all the ace cards.

You have all the cards, yet you're a broke as* nigga.

 

[Jeeten Parikh]

this may be fake news. I am surprised Bush knew

 

[Genghis khan1]

Definitely disagree on some points but don’t want this to turn into an argument. I respect your passion and kind of understand it, so let’s agree to disagree.

Pakistanis in Pakistan do Namak halali of one who feeds them regardless of their moral compass. Like a slave. Be it RS 500 for vote or plate of Biryani or govt job. Over here in US, you can and are expected to speak up and criticize if something is morally wrong, regardless if that person is your benefactor. Society will judge people on their morals not how well they did Namak halali.

In other words, here people have khudar qom mindset.