India is a friend. Pakistan is not. (US president Bush memo)

[LakeHawk180]

People to people wise should be closest to Paksiatn. But see where we stand as nations. There are many such examples in the world, where people to people vs nation to nation equations were complete opposite.

People to people is an important aspect but at national level, past history plays an important role. That past hasn’t been good with the US. We still look at them with suspicion. It is changing but that would take time.

People to people with Pakistan-US isn’t as strong. I also mentioned institution to institution. People don’t realise it, but the success of so many of our social and economic development programs are influenced and supported by the US. Even if you look at support from multilateral agencies to Indian development programs , you can find U.S. based institutions in the background (you just need to look hard enough). This kind of cooperation has never existed with Russia.

You mentioned our equation with the US is changing. Have you considered that it has always gone on an upward trajectory (minus few disruptive events)? I would attribute it to the fundamentals of our relationship dynamics getting stronger.

Personally, I am all for stronger ties with the US. So my statements may be biased, take it how you will.

 

[SaadH]

Yaar you live in “amreeka bahadur” bas kar Yaar bro. I get the hate on establishment/army leadership alot and most of it is justified but I can’t with the hypocrisy. Reminds me of the multani guy who was in loved some communist d*** but was living in Canada.

In civilized and free countries we are free to criticize the actions and policies of our adopted countries. And Amreeka bahadur's actions are of that a hegemon vis a vis Pakistan. Albeit, those actions are with the view to protect american interest, however ill-conceieved or malintent that might be. I can say this as right given to me in this country's constitution with no fear of retribution.

However, in Pakistan's case the only consideration Establishment has is for the preservation of the aforementioned American hegemony. This the lowest of the low and in American eyes even less worthy of respect than their archest of enemies. Amreeka bahadur has more respect for the North Koreans and Taliban than the sold out progeny of Lord Clive, i.e. Pak Army sepoys who have consistently sold their nation's interests for peanuts going back 250 years. Hence the American refrain specially preserved for no other nation except Pakistan, that is "they are willing to sell even their mothers".

 

[Skull and Bones]

Location Location Location

US needs Pakistan to reach Central Asia

India needs Pakistan to reach Iran

Russia needs Pakistan to reach Arabian Sea

China needs Pakistan to reach GCC & Africa.

Pakistan has all the ace cards.

India needs Pakistan to reach Iran? Bitch please!

 

[VkdIndian]

Pakistan has all the ace cards.

Game seems to be slipping out of the hand inspite of such good cards.

Time to start using them before it’s too late.

 

[Mustang125]

In civilized and free countries we are free to criticize the actions and policies of our adopted countries. And Amreeka bahadur's actions are of that a hegemon vis a vis Pakistan. Albeit, those actions are with the view to protect american interest, however ill-conceieved or malintent that might be. I can say this as right given to me in this country's constitution with no fear of retribution.

However, in Pakistan's case the only consideration Establishment has is for the preservation of the aforementioned American hegemony. This the lowest of the low and in American eyes even less worthy of respect than their archest of enemies. Amreeka bahadur has more respect for the North Koreans and Taliban than the sold out progeny of Lord Clive, i.e. Pak Army sepoys who have consistently sold their nation's interests for peanuts going back 250 years. Hence the American refrain specially preserved for no other nation except Pakistan, that is "they are willing to sell even their mothers".

Definitely disagree on some points but don’t want this to turn into an argument. I respect your passion and kind of understand it, so let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

India will always be a more favourable ally, their relationship with Pakistan was always forced due to geopolitical necessity.

Culturally India aligns more closely with US than Pakistan ever could. Now geopolitics has aligned with this reality too.

Nothing to do with cultural similarity. Pakistan made US choose India over Pakistan. For example, a Pakistani president wrote a book with the title, Friends not Masters, directed at US (even though Pakistan has a fawning relationship with China and Saudi Arabia). In international relations that indicates underlying hostility. Americans respect self-assured attitude. US regards itself as the leader of the Free World [American Exceptionalism]. It won't equalize itself with developing countries, or even its first world European/East Asian allies.

 

[Sayfullah]

If Pakistan learns to respect it self then the world will respect it. I rather Pakistan be seen as an enemy than a slave. Americans tend to treat their allies like shit while respecting their enemies who have the capability to inflict damage on Americans.

 

[Olympus81]

Pakistan played it completely wrong.

You see, when you don’t stand up for yourself and just capitulate to a powerful country, that’s what happens. Pakistan goes knee deep into it’s relationship with a regional power that it sometimes hurts itself.

Let me give you an example. During the Soviet war, Pakistan refused to engage in broad diplomatic and trade relations with USSR and even treated other countries aligned to the Soviet as a pariah. Same with Arab countries and limited relations with Iran. Identical to its relation with China and refusal to deal with Xinjiang or relations with Taiwan.

Seeing this kind of capitulation attitude the other party would think very lowly of you.

When IK said absolutely not to drone strikes, everyone just went bezerk (especially Establishment). Questions arose like how can Pakistan say no, and its absolutely weak in front of US. When you’re not willing to grow a spine the other party will take you for a ride like a tramp. These eunuch of an establishment we have would want to prostrate in front of a powerful country provided they open $ tap in the form of CSF, a million dollar for a drone strike or CPEC.

As opposed to the Indians who are holding their own. They maintain good relations with everyone no matter what. US, Russia, China, check the trade figures and diplomatic relations. Learn to play the game.

 

[TheSolution]

Exactly,
and the reason the GHQ and for that matter air and naval head quarters will continue to be
ready conduits, is because they are trained from day 1 to do that.
These Gentlemen, who wear and idolize the western system will forever remain their servants.

Change the uniform to shalwar Qameez, and make Urdu the official language, and the
majority of these cock suckers will vanish.

While I like promoting our culture I think there is a certain benefit to the uniform they wear, and English is a global language and academically developed, so I don't see a problem with it being used at times. Most of the time Urdu is used anyway.

Our politicians rock Shalwar Qameez most of the time, even Nawaz Sharif and Maryam alongside IK do. I think military can get a pass and all our news channels use Urdu. So I don't think there is excessive angrez wannabe vibes but rather a small pocket of them. Unfortunately some of them powerful people.

It's really just about having self-respect, national pride, belief in Islam, and pursuing national interests. It can also be related to those foreign courses they take which are probably uses to create loyal moles.

The best way to build moles inside Pakistan is to push people towards a liberal ideology and make them see Pakistan as extreme. Not difficult to do with some brown men who take foreign courses if I'm being honest, hire some white hookers to flirt with them, build the ideology and you have yourself a cooperative high-level mole.

 

[Dalit]

Let me grab a coffee at Tim Horton...

 

[etylo]

Pakistan played it completely wrong.

You see, when you don’t stand up for yourself and just capitulate to a powerful country, that’s what happens. Pakistan goes knee deep into it’s relationship with a regional power that it sometimes hurts itself.

Let me give you an example. During the Soviet war, Pakistan refused to engage in broad diplomatic and trade relations with USSR and even treated other countries aligned to the Soviet as a pariah. Same with Arab countries and limited relations with Iran. Identical to its relation with China and refusal to deal with Xinjiang or relations with Taiwan.

Seeing this kind of capitulation attitude the other party would think very lowly of you.

When IK said absolutely not to drone strikes, everyone just went bezerk (especially Establishment). Questions arose like how can Pakistan say no, and its absolutely weak in front of US. When you’re not willing to grow a spine the other party will take you for a ride like a tramp. These eunuch of an establishment we have would want to prostrate in front of a powerful country provided they open $ tap in the form of CSF, a million dollar for a drone strike or CPEC.

As opposed to the Indians who are holding their own. They maintain good relations with everyone no matter what. US, Russia, China, check the trade figures and diplomatic relations. Learn to play the game.

Dont get them wrong, Xinjiang and Taiwan are Chinese internal matters.

 

[Dalit]

While I like promoting our culture I think there is a certain benefit to the uniform they wear, and English is a global language and academically developed, so I don't see a problem with it being used at times. Most of the time Urdu is used anyway.

Our politicians rock Shalwar Qameez most of the time, even Nawaz Sharif and Maryam alongside IK do. I think military can get a pass and all our news channels use Urdu. So I don't think there is excessive angrez wannabe vibes but rather a small pocket of them. Unfortunately some of them powerful people.

It's really just about having self-respect, national pride, belief in Islam, and pursuing national interests. It can also be related to those foreign courses they take which are probably uses to create loyal moles.

The best way to build moles inside Pakistan is to push people towards a liberal ideology and make them see Pakistan as extreme. Not difficult to do with some brown men who take foreign courses if I'm being honest, hire some white hookers to flirt with them, build the ideology and you have yourself a cooperative high-level mole.

It is very easy to turn Pakistanis into moles. Either provide them a short term scholarship to some Western country or simply pay them some dollars and the job is done.

 

[-=virus=-]

A Look at secret Bush (Bush's national security team) Memos for President Obama.

The first note reads:

India is a friend. Pakistan is not.




View attachment 916568


Reference: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/14/us/politics/bush-obama-memos.html


So, they (US) knew that and had this policy for decades. It amazes me, that our establishment went far & beyond to appease US. Bajwa, going full throttle against Russia on security conference in 2022 till today, We are seeing West appeasing policy that's only hurting us and nothing else.

No matter, how much Generals appease them, there's no way collective West will favor Pakistan over india. Indian influence over US is overwhelming, Indians dominate US tech & business sectors, indian decent politicians are coming in powerful positions, the security agreements with india makes it a de-factor Asian NATO Country. I am appalled at IQ of General Bajwa, who completely disrupted our relations with Russia & China because of his Pro-west attitude.

I used to doubt the authenticity of General Bajwa's meetings with journalists where he used to degrade the Chinese food, culture and like to shower all praises on Americans. But everything now looks clear.

- Britishers told us what we are supposed to do and we sold cheap ammo. At the same time, india saving billions of dollars on cheap oil & gas. Indian citizens are greatly benefiting from cheap russian oil. Not just that, india is re-exporting Russian oil after refining it to the West and the World and earning multi billion dollar revenue.

- Annoyance of Russia is evident, A security dialog on Afghanistan happened just days ago in Moscow, all NSA's from neighboring countries were invited including India except Pakistan. Leaving space open on regional security agenda is suicidal. Lack of strategic thinking from GHQ has given this space back to the indians.

- China is obviously annoyed on GHQ's shocking policy - China has state policy to not publicly talk about differences, otherwise they would have said quite clearly but actions already speaks:

- New COAS has visited KSA, UAE, Britian etc. but not China (or did he? atleast I missed if he did)

- China shuts down consular office in Pak citing security situation.

- China would be surprised seeing Pak helping Britain & EU supplying weapons to Ukraine (POF artillery ) against China's ally Russia.

- I am also noticing unusual delay in delivery of Chinese weaponary. If milestones like Keel laying, launching dates have to be our guide then 3rd Type 54-A/P was due on first week of January. The first of the 08 submarines were also due in 2022-2023, Similarly, what about next batches of J-10Cs.

- PN AMAN-23 exercise has invited all countries but Russia was not invited.


All we are seeing is GHQ's flawed foreign policy. First of all they should NEVER venture in this area. They are not equipped to make nation's foreign policy. Disastrous results are in front of everyone. Pro-West policy has taken us to the default and we have also lost the confidence & trust of our allies. Even Amateurs could see that West will not give us any extra favor, no matter what you do. Our future had to be aligned with China & Russia, the above article shows that even at times of great co-operation, the west was only using us. They knew all the way that India is their real friend and we can never be trusted.

We don't have to be anti-west as well, but atleast We must have anticipated that west cannot offer us anything else then whatever its offering already. But heck, GHQ even toppled the elected govt on little displeasure of US (over Khan's visit to Moscow - same day Russian offense started)

One country is not willing to sell engines (license for their engines to be re-exported) ( for Turkish helis), Other country is selling you complete fighter jet squadrons and yet you destroy the trust.
The damage done will take decades to repair. China/Russia will never trust us. They will consider that our establishment can do shocking decisions for the west. Who will trust, what if a new COAS at any point in time do yet another pro-US stunts like Bajwa. How China (arch rival of United States) can now feel secure investing further in Pakistan ? If I put myself in China's position, I'd never trust Pak.

There really is no point in trying to maintain a hostile posture against the US, and even less point in throwing your lot in with the Chinese.

not a black and white issue, this, don't be stupid now, Pk bros !

 

[TheSolution]

It is very easy to turn Pakistanis into moles. Either provide them a short term scholarship to some Western country or simply pay them some dollars and the job is done.

I wonder how many of our COAS have taken foreign military courses in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them have.

Money alone can create a mole but most effective mole is one you can influence their ideology. Best way to create a mole that would be willing to work against Pakistani interests is to simply make them extremely liberal or straight up non-muslim.

They probably get some white girls to influence their ideology, make them more liberal, drink, whatever, create a more effective mole.

 

[PradoTLC]

A Look at secret Bush (Bush's national security team) Memos for President Obama.

The first note reads:

India is a friend. Pakistan is not.




View attachment 916568


Reference: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/14/us/politics/bush-obama-memos.html


So, they (US) knew that and had this policy for decades. It amazes me, that our establishment went far & beyond to appease US. Bajwa, going full throttle against Russia on security conference in 2022 till today, We are seeing West appeasing policy that's only hurting us and nothing else.

No matter, how much Generals appease them, there's no way collective West will favor Pakistan over india. Indian influence over US is overwhelming, Indians dominate US tech & business sectors, indian decent politicians are coming in powerful positions, the security agreements with india makes it a de-factor Asian NATO Country. I am appalled at IQ of General Bajwa, who completely disrupted our relations with Russia & China because of his Pro-west attitude.

I used to doubt the authenticity of General Bajwa's meetings with journalists where he used to degrade the Chinese food, culture and like to shower all praises on Americans. But everything now looks clear.

- Britishers told us what we are supposed to do and we sold cheap ammo. At the same time, india saving billions of dollars on cheap oil & gas. Indian citizens are greatly benefiting from cheap russian oil. Not just that, india is re-exporting Russian oil after refining it to the West and the World and earning multi billion dollar revenue.

- Annoyance of Russia is evident, A security dialog on Afghanistan happened just days ago in Moscow, all NSA's from neighboring countries were invited including India except Pakistan. Leaving space open on regional security agenda is suicidal. Lack of strategic thinking from GHQ has given this space back to the indians.

- China is obviously annoyed on GHQ's shocking policy - China has state policy to not publicly talk about differences, otherwise they would have said quite clearly but actions already speaks:

- New COAS has visited KSA, UAE, Britian etc. but not China (or did he? atleast I missed if he did)

- China shuts down consular office in Pak citing security situation.

- China would be surprised seeing Pak helping Britain & EU supplying weapons to Ukraine (POF artillery ) against China's ally Russia.

- I am also noticing unusual delay in delivery of Chinese weaponary. If milestones like Keel laying, launching dates have to be our guide then 3rd Type 54-A/P was due on first week of January. The first of the 08 submarines were also due in 2022-2023, Similarly, what about next batches of J-10Cs.

- PN AMAN-23 exercise has invited all countries but Russia was not invited.


All we are seeing is GHQ's flawed foreign policy. First of all they should NEVER venture in this area. They are not equipped to make nation's foreign policy. Disastrous results are in front of everyone. Pro-West policy has taken us to the default and we have also lost the confidence & trust of our allies. Even Amateurs could see that West will not give us any extra favor, no matter what you do. Our future had to be aligned with China & Russia, the above article shows that even at times of great co-operation, the west was only using us. They knew all the way that India is their real friend and we can never be trusted.

We don't have to be anti-west as well, but atleast We must have anticipated that west cannot offer us anything else then whatever its offering already. But heck, GHQ even toppled the elected govt on little displeasure of US (over Khan's visit to Moscow - same day Russian offense started)

One country is not willing to sell engines (license for their engines to be re-exported) ( for Turkish helis), Other country is selling you complete fighter jet squadrons and yet you destroy the trust.
The damage done will take decades to repair. China/Russia will never trust us. They will consider that our establishment can do shocking decisions for the west. Who will trust, what if a new COAS at any point in time do yet another pro-US stunts like Bajwa. How China (arch rival of United States) can now feel secure investing further in Pakistan ? If I put myself in China's position, I'd never trust Pak.

in short Bajwa is an idiot .. Khan knew what he was doing