India is a friend or foe of the Muslim world

[Scum]

This was the reason why Islamic society turned against free thought and scientific inquiry pretty soon.

Islamic society's downfall was more recent, in the last 200 years, because of us falling into ignorance and jahalat. The Imams and Religious leaders of old were witty people who were liberal in their own ways and open minded, who would have dialogue with other faiths. Hell, the Islamic society of old was very far ahead of the Europeans who were in the dark ages. What the third world is going through right now is another dark ages, unfortunately, and it's overall not just in the Islamic countries.

 

[asad71]

1.After remaining colonized for millenniums the Hindu cannot afford to loosen his grip on the Brahmonic State of India. He will not slacken the process of Ethnic Cleansing of Muslims that had started with Akbar's experiment with Din e Ilahi.

2. India, which was expected to be called Hindustan at Partition, can never ever be friends of the Muslims. In fact Hinduism sees all non-Hindus as unwelcome entrants into her house. They must be eradicated.

1.After remaining colonized for millenniums the Hindu cannot afford to loosen his grip on the Brahmonic State of India. He will not slacken the process of Ethnic Cleansing of Muslims that had started with Akbar's experiment with Din e Ilahi.

2. India, which was expected to be called Hindustan at Partition, can never ever be friends of the Muslims. In fact Hinduism sees all non-Hindus as unwelcome entrants into her house. They must be eradicated.

 

[Scum]

India, which was expected to be called Hindustan at Partition, can never ever be friends of the Muslims. In fact Hinduism sees all non-Hindus as unwelcome entrants into her house. They must be eradicated.

I know many Indian Muslims who would disagree to what you just said there.

 

[niaz]

Hon Vinod 2070,

I agree that being a Pakistani, it is difficult for me to be truly objective when it comes to India. .
This thread is however not about India versus Pakistan but whether India is a friend or foe of the Muslims.

I was born before the partition and my elders had lived with Hindus and Sikh for generations. I don’t hate India; neither do I consider India ‘Arch Enemy’. India is just an adversary.

Most of the text books that I read in school in the early 50’s were written by the Hindus and the English. I found nothing objectionable in these. It is only after the bigot Zia that historical text books have been changed in Pakistan. BJP has tried to do the same thing in India. Your comments in post number 387 imply that previous history books were incorrect and attempt to change is called for.

In another words, to exploit sins of the grand fathers and punish the grandsons for the crimes they did not commit is justified. This way of thinking goes against my grain and I consider this a crime against humanity.

If you read my posts, you may have noticed that I am against parties that exploit religious, ethnic or sectarian prejudices. That is why I am against all religious parties and also the parties that support strong rightist views in Pakistan.

BJP started as Bharatia Jan Sang and Rashtariya Swayamsevek Sang; both strongly sectarian and anti-Muslim parties. LK Advani's Ram Rath Yatra of 1990 was strongly anti Muslim which raised the fundamental question about definaition of secularism and brought to surface anti Muslim feeling previously hidden in many Hindus. This is what turned BJP from having only 2 seats in the 1985 elections to the largest political party in India.

No matter how objective I try to be, it is difficult for anyone as familiar with the subcontinent history as I am, to accept that India under BJP is a friend of the Muslims.

However, I have met scores of Indians during my visits to India as well my neighbours and colleagues in the US, UK and the UAE who were without doubt good friends of the Muslims. That is why I stand by my opinion that India is simultaneously friend and foe of the Muslims.

 

[faizahmad]

india can not be friend of muslims

As Per your hate filled text books

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ Niaz sir, you remain one of my favorite Pakistani posters and I agree with most of your points.

I have never seen any debate in India that looks at foreign policy issues in terms of religion. It is mostly based on common interests or common values.

So, at least the vast majority of us don't look at the world through the religious prism. In fact, in many ways we identify more in terms of values with far flung countries than nearer neighbors.

That is the distance we have come from largely common roots!

I recently attended a company event. The speaker was a senior American and he said that India and USA share many values and work ethic (of course he would be talking from the perspective of his own interactions with either US Indians or Indian employees in his company). Having been to the states many times and having worked with colleagues from many countries, I actually found myself agreeing with him.

We now share many values (pluralism, secularism, democracy, work ethic at least among a large and increasing section now) with distant countries and less and less with our own former brothers and friends.

I hope we can be friends or at least non hostile neighbors.

 

[notsuperstitious]

1.After remaining colonized for millenniums the Hindu cannot afford to loosen his grip on the Brahmonic State of India. He will not slacken the process of Ethnic Cleansing of Muslims that had started with Akbar's experiment with Din e Ilahi.

2. India, which was expected to be called Hindustan at Partition, can never ever be friends of the Muslims. In fact Hinduism sees all non-Hindus as unwelcome entrants into her house. They must be eradicated.

Do you believe what you posted? Why is everyone here an ideologue, makes grand statements encompassing centuries if not millenia, talks in conspiratory tones and that ever present illusion of grandeuer and are self appointed spokespersons...

...but won't look at the simple hard fact that India's muslims are part of India and make India what it is today... or that India has very good relations with almost all muslim countries... or that about 160 million muslims live peacefully in India fully participating in India's politics, the present and future...???

brahmonic state, ethnic leansing of muslims under akbar... doesn't your backside hurt when you pull all that out? Or it doesn't because you are a man of faith?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Following on from what you said Sir I put up the following thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...zionism-hurdles-peace-democracy-scholars.html

from comments from Indians on it it is clear that some Indians support it without knowing what it is about whilst other secular Indians state that it is a group of racist thugs. Read the Indian comments and make come to your own conclusion.

This also convinced me that we have a small very vocal minority of fanatics but religious parties never get more than a few per cent votes in Pakistan BJP actually is one of the largest parties in India so they have more devoted to religous parties.

One other thing Modi could not get a visa for perceived human rights violations it would appear if you look at the Modi threads on the forums that many in India support him and want him to lead India

Presumably if you are paying so much attention to these debates, you are aware that it is Indian citizens who are leading the charge against him. No third party body, no external force, not the central government, which is curled up in a permanent foetal crouch, not the Supreme Court, finding itself gradually drawn into the sphere of action of the executive, not the Human Rights Commission, not the Minorities Commission, but ordinary citizens who have organised and are blunting every effort by the guilty to escape investigation of their actions.

It is the small very vocal minority of fanatics on the Indian side who seem to have fascinated you, but like the religious parties in Pakistan, their vote share has been slipping progressively in each successive election. It is not they who will determine the future.

 

[lem34]

Presumably if you are paying so much attention to these debates, you are aware that it is Indian citizens who are leading the charge against him. No third party body, no external force, not the central government, which is curled up in a permanent foetal crouch, not the Supreme Court, finding itself gradually drawn into the sphere of action of the executive, not the Human Rights Commission, not the Minorities Commission, but ordinary citizens who have organised and are blunting every effort by the guilty to escape investigation of their actions.

It is the small very vocal minority of fanatics on the Indian side who seem to have fascinated you, but like the religious parties in Pakistan, their vote share has been slipping progressively in each successive election. It is not they who will determine the future.

thank you Joe and I do appreciate that. We must be vigilant against extreme forces in our countries. But I tell you what concerns me is that we in Pakistan do have an issue with a small minority and it is maybe 2 to 3% because that's all that religious parties have ever got in elections. But what concerns me about India is that BJP the opposition party has links and has significant support in India

 

[notsuperstitious]

thank you Joe and I do appreciate that. We must be vigilant against extreme forces in our countries. But I tell you what concerns me is that we in Pakistan do have an issue with a small minority and it is maybe 2 to 3% because that's all that religious parties have ever got in elections. But what concerns me about India is that BJP the opposition party has links and has significant support in India

Depending on various surveys, 42 to 27% Pakistanis consider murderous terrorists Lashkar E Taiba heroes and a majority Pakistanis think Osama Bin Laden's death was a bad thing.

Do check out a good 80% want adulterers stoned and apostates killed.

And you are worried about BJP, whose Vajpayee went all the way to Lahore, to be thwarted by that 2 to 3%!!!

Really what world do you live in?

 

[anoop]

thank you Joe and I do appreciate that. We must be vigilant against extreme forces in our countries. But I tell you what concerns me is that we in Pakistan do have an issue with a small minority and it is maybe 2 to 3% because that's all that religious parties have ever got in elections. But what concerns me about India is that BJP the opposition party has links and has significant support in India

why people across the border distrust BJP when its leader L.K.Advani spoke about M.A.JINNAH AS secular (or his speech as a secular) which cost his party an last general election

 

[IND151]

What do you expect, its their hindu mentality, they will serve anyone like a true servant who they see they can benefit, like israel for example. Indian hindus use to boast about how they are good friends of Iranians, but next thing you know they voted against them in the IAEA not to mention they have sided with israel in its accusation against Iran.

They will do the same to Arabs as well, actually they have, Arabs are just too blind to see it.

for bolded part> Nixon impresses me more and more

for what you said about Iran> we are already using Chahbar port despite of US opposition to Iran

Presumably if you are paying so much attention to these debates, you are aware that it is Indian citizens who are leading the charge against him. No third party body, no external force, not the central government, which is curled up in a permanent foetal crouch, not the Supreme Court, finding itself gradually drawn into the sphere of action of the executive, not the Human Rights Commission, not the Minorities Commission, but ordinary citizens who have organised and are blunting every effort by the guilty to escape investigation of their actions.

It is the small very vocal minority of fanatics on the Indian side who seem to have fascinated you, but like the religious parties in Pakistan, their vote share has been slipping progressively in each successive election. It is not they who will determine the future.

completely agree

i hope our Pakistani friends see this aspect too

thank you Joe and I do appreciate that. We must be vigilant against extreme forces in our countries. But I tell you what concerns me is that we in Pakistan do have an issue with a small minority and it is maybe 2 to 3% because that's all that religious parties have ever got in elections. But what concerns me about India is that BJP the opposition party has links and has significant support in India

support for BJP has other reasons too

they used Ram Mandir card to get to power

but now they have found religious card wont work anymore (example 2009 elections)

Nitish Kumar and Narendra Modi got reelected in Bihar and Gujarat due to good governance and economic progress.

 

[Tshering22]

What do you expect, its their hindu mentality, they will serve anyone like a true servant who they see they can benefit, like israel for example. Indian hindus use to boast about how they are good friends of Iranians, but next thing you know they voted against them in the IAEA not to mention they have sided with israel in its accusation against Iran.

They will do the same to Arabs as well, actually they have, Arabs are just too blind to see it.

It is better than your kind that you sideline your 50 years of partnership with USA and suddenly side with Chinese when they need you the most.

-Who gave you assistance during floods? USA.
-Who developed your economy while your generals were spending 70% of your GDP in defense in cold war? USA.
-Who provided you quality weapons off their own monetary programs throughout? USA.
-Who enabled to setup defense infrastructure in your country first? USA.
-Which foreign nation offered you assistance to take out your 150 trapped soldiers first? USA.
-Who sent a warship to ward us off during your war in 1971? USA.
-Who asked IMF to bail your economy out with financial assistance? USA.
-Who saved your rear from Soviet juggernaut? USA (spearheading NATO).

NOT China.

And this is what you do to your decades-old friends; support their worst enemy, play double agent, hide their most hated enemy for months and then complain that they violated your territory.

So you people should be the last ones teaching us Indians about friendship.

It is religion's overdose that is taking your country down and if you continue thinking like this, it will only push you further down.

 

[Vinod2070]

What do you expect, its their hindu mentality, they will serve anyone like a true servant who they see they can benefit, like israel for example. Indian hindus use to boast about how they are good friends of Iranians, but next thing you know they voted against them in the IAEA not to mention they have sided with israel in its accusation against Iran.

They will do the same to Arabs as well, actually they have, Arabs are just too blind to see it.

We can talk a lot about your "Muslim mentality" or "convert mentality" (to be more precise).

But, there has to be some difference between civilized people and fanatic zombies.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Do Pakistanis even have a right to criticize India any more?? Or maybe you're from the minority who is well off here and thinks entire Pakistan is more well off than India. It's not the 1970's anymore when India was our poor elder brother and we were the thriving, hard working state based on Iqbal's ideals of a Muslim Ubermensch. People are finding it harder to live in Pakistan on a day to day basis, I have many middle class friends from India and the difference between Pak and India is that middle class people in India are living a decent life whereas the almost non-existent middle class people from Pakistan are in danger of drowning in poverty.

That's what I meant in my previous comment but Mr, Aryab_b didn't like it, see because of the cold war between Pakistan and India, most of Pakistanis suffer the economy stressed for the army needs corruption spread some nations the strong ones take the side of India just because the other side is Muslim, piece and fair relationship with India is the way to build Pakistan.